Query re banns and Stuck research

[SBDFHS]

I am going to throw this open to the members here as I have been trying to get to the bottom of it for a long time, and I hope somebody may be able to suggest something new.

My ggf, George Doughty was born circa 1829 in London.

In 1841 he is in Greenwich, aged 11, with Elizabeth Doughty, washerwoman, aged 45. Both BIC.

In 1851 he was still in Greenwich, age 21, born Rotherhithe, and Elizabeth, aged 57, bn. London, says she is a widow, a charwoman and his grandmother.

On Elizabeth's death cert. in 1870, George says she is the widow of William Doughty, a wire drawer, but I have never found a marriage to back this up.

All well and good until, in 1857 George DOUGHTY marries in Deptford to Emma PARISH.
On the marriage cert his father is given as Josiah BRIGHT, a miller.

There was a BRIGHT family in Bucks who were millers and had a son named Josiah of the right age, who ended up running a pub in the midlands. The name is very uncommon.

I also found a baptism on 19APR1829 at St Lukes, Finsbury: George Edwin BRIGHT to Josiah and Mary Ann.

This was where I was stuck until Ancestry listed PRs of St Mary, Whitechapel, which show banns being called for third time for the marriage of Elizabeth Doughty and Josiah Bright on 13Jan1828.

I have not found a marriage for Elizabeth and Josiah, or a birth for George. Also no death for a William.

The whole thing gets more interesting when you consider that, on Elizabeth's death cert., William Doughty is described as a wire drawer. This was a term for a brushmaker who made brushes by hand. George became a brushmaker, and the main Doughty family in Whitechapel was the family of William Doughty, brushmaker of Whitechapel.

I believe banns would be called in the parish churches of both parties. Is this correct?

This can conjure up all kinds of possible scenarios, but has anybody any ideas for research?

[kiterunner]

Yes, the banns would be called in the churches of both their parishes, but on Josiah and Elizabeth's banns it says they are "both of this parish" (dittoed from the top of the page). Will add more later but have to go and eat now...

[SBDFHS]

I missed the dittos! Thank you.

[Lindsay]

I notice that the baptism following George Bright's in 1829 is for a Mary Ann - I wonder if the vicar made a mistake and wrote Mary Ann instead of Elizabeth for George's mother?

[Lindsay]

Have you got Josiah's Will (if he's the man who died 1865)?

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1904/31874_222908-00320/2363851?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dUKProbateCal%26rank%3d1%26new %3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dms_db%2 6gsfn%3djosiah%26gsln%3dbright%26uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Outside chance he might mention George.

Also, Josiah married in 1834 - that record should tell you if he was a widower or a bachelor.

[kiterunner]

Have you got Josiah's Will (if he's the man who died 1865)?



Lindsay, that entry is for an Administration and it doesn't say "with the Will attached", so there won't be a will.

[kiterunner]

On Elizabeth's death certificate, does it state George's relationship to her?

[Phoenix]

If George's father did not marry his mother and left London: which is what is suggested by what you have found, George may have spent some of his early life in the workhouse. Ideally, a settlement examination would survive.

[SBDFHS]

Josiah appears to have either run off, or died.

My Ancestry membership has lapsed due to a change in circumstances so I can't see the link.

It has been noted before that George does not give a relationship on the death certificate

There are so many "ifs"

There are two marriages in Whitechapel of a William Doughty. One to an Elizabeth Rigby, and one to Jane Farley, which I have a cert for. This shows him as a brushmaker and I am in contact with his descendants. We have never proved any link although we feel it must exist.

It is possible Jane was William's second wife and he may have had children by his first wife, and/or acquired a step daughter, who took his surname.

If so the possibilities are -
Elizabeth was pregnant by Josiah Bright. He absconded before the marriage and she was left to bring up the boy, later posing as his gm due to her age.

Elizabeth really was his gm and was the estranged wife of William Doughty of Whitechapel who then claimed to be a widower and remarried. George being the son of their daughter, Elizabeth or possibly the Mary Ann on the baptism.

The only clue I have is that George named his first daughter Emma Frances Elizabeth DOUGHTY, a name she always gave in full.

Emma was her mother, Elizabeth her gm (or ggm). there were no Frances on George's wife's side so this may be his mother's name, and there is a Frances and an Elizabeth Mary connected to the Whitechapel William.

I could probably think of a lot more possibilities. it is a real problem..

[kiterunner]

The ancestry link is to a National Probate Calendar entry, but it is unlikely that the letters of administration would help:

ADMINISTRATIONS 1865
BRIGHT Josiah. Effects under £450.
10 March. Letters of Administration of the Personal estate and effects of Josiah Bright late of Cubbington in the County of Warwick Publican deceased who died 31 January 1865 at Cubbington aforesaid were granted at Birmingham to Maria Bright of Cubbington aforesaid Widow the Relict of the said Deceased she having been first sworn.

[Shona]

I was looking at the image on Ancestry for the birth of George Edwin Bright.

Info from image:

Born: 5 March 1829
Baptised: 19 April 1829
Father: Josiah Bright, miller
Mother: Mary Ann
Address: King's Court
Parish: Finsbury St Luke

[SBDFHS]

Yes, on George's marr. cert. his father is shown as Josiah BRIGHT, miller.

There must be a link, but I have been trying to prove it since 1990!

[SBDFHS]

Personal estate and effects of Josiah Bright late of Cubbington in the County of Warwick Publican deceased who died 31 January 1865 at Cubbington aforesaid were granted at Birmingham to Maria Bright of Cubbington aforesaid Widow the Relict of the said Deceased she having been first sworn.

I believe this is the same Josiah BRIGHT, from the Bucks. family of millers. He obviously deserted Elizabeth, or perhaps Elizabeth died(?) and the child was baptised with Mary Ann mistakenly being put down as the mother. Or (pick any one of a dozen possibilities....!)

[marquette]

May be Josiah Bright, was his father but never married to his mother ? But young George was taken into the family trade of brushmaker ?

Elizabeth Doughty seems somewhat young to be his grandmother. If she was born around 1795 as per the census, one would think her first child was probably born at the earliest around 1811 (if she was only 16), who would also have had to have George D at about age 17.

So I would be looking into Grandmother a bit more and she was I could find out about her, and if she could have ever come into contact with Josiah, or was he just a name plucked from the air ?

Di

[SBDFHS]

Elizabeth Doughty seems somewhat young to be his grandmother. If she was born around 1795 as per the census, one would think her first child was probably born at the earliest around 1811 (if she was only 16), who would also have had to have George D at about age 17.

Di

Thank you.


The most likely scenarios are -

1. Elizabeth, possibly the daughter of William Doughty, the Whitechapel brushmaker, became pregnant by Josiah and put up the Banns. Josiah jilted her and went back to Bucks where he later married Maria. (I did find a mill where he was living before he took on the pub)
Elizabeth was about 34 at the time and may have become estranged from her father due to this.
To prevent people thinking badly of her, she moved across the Thames and said she was George's gm.
George could have been put into the trade through links she had with friends. She told George her husband was a William Doughty, but that was really her father.

2. Elizabeth was the 34 year old wife of William Doughty. She became pregnant by Josiah, went through a farce of deception and Josiah ran off. William kicked her out and she had to raise George alone, posing as his gm.


3. Elizabeth was the estranged first wife of William Doughty who then remarried bigamously. Her daughter had George by Josiah and something happened to prevent the daughter caring for him. William and his new wife would not take the child on, so Elizabeth took him in. William may have provided some financial support.

4. ??? Any other suggestions ???

I am basing this on the name Doughty being uncommon and there being at least two marriages of a Wm Doughty in the area.

It is a bit odd that a 34 year old woman was unmarried (unless she was a real minger!)

I have checked all possible Josiah Brights and the only one of the right age and occupation is the Bucks one, unless it was a different one who died pre registration (1828-1837).

It is so hard to try to prove links around the turn of the 18th/19th centuries, especially when ages and other details were not recorded.

Regarding the earlier Settlement suggestion, would this be likely with any of these?

Can anyone find a death for a Josiah Bright between those dates, please?
Or a birth of a Mary Ann Doughty, or any Doughty with a forename of Frances circa 1811.

thank you

[Shona]

I did a bit of work on this today and thought I found some useful info. But I can't find the notes now. Grrr. Will rework some theories and try to post tomorrow.

[Olde Crone]

Probably no help, but I have two instances of banns being called three times but no marriage taking place. By looking at the ORIGINAL registers, it was clear that the Vicar routinely filled in the date of the marriage on the same page as the banns, so it was very clear when no marriage had taken place.

OC

[Shona]

Put this together – you prob have most of this already, but it may help other to have this written down.

c1794
Elizabeth Doughty born in London – info taken from 1851 census.

c1793/4
Josiah Bright born in Tibberton, Glos – info taken from census records and death record.

Baptisms for children of Thomas Bright and Elizabeth (nee Smith) in St Laurence Taynton, Gloucestershire. Thomas and Elizabeth married on 22 June 1784. Inf from Family Search and the Genealogy Section of the Tibberton Village website.

- Thomas, 19 June 1785
- Elizabeth, 1 May 1786
- William, 3 June 1786
- Hannah, 18 Aug 1787
- William, 18 Aug 1787
- Josiah, 9 Sept 1793 [Josia on Family Search]
- Saml, 9 Aug 1796
- Elizabeth, 3 June 1798
- Hester, 11 May 1800, Tibberton Mill

There are also baptisms to a Josiah and Sarah Bright in Taynton in the 1760s. Possibly Thomas’s parents?

1827/1828
Dec 30, Jan 6, Jan 13, banns read for Josiah Bright, miller, and Elizabeth Doughty, bachelor and spinster both of the parish of Whitechapel St Mary.

There appears to be no corresponding marriage. I checked out one of the other couples whose banns where recorded on the same page as those read for Josiah and Elizabeth and searched for the marriage. There was a match. Having gone through the pages of the marriage register for Feb and March 1828, I couldn’t find a marriage for Josiah and Elizabeth.

1829
George Edwin Bright born on 19 April 1829 and baptised on 5 May 1829 to Josiah and Mary Ann Bright, King’s Court, Finsbury St Luke’s parish. Father’s occupation, miller.

Is this an accurate entry or an error? The baptismal registers weren’t usually completed at the time of the baptism, but written up later from notes. Mistakes were made. It may be that an error was made as the name Mary Ann appears also appears on the next line.

1834
Josiah Bright marries Maria Welch, 25 Dec 1834, Radclive, Buckinghamshire.

Have the parish registers been viewed to check whether Josiah claimed to be a widower when he married Maria?

1835
Elizabeth Maria Bright baptised on 18 October 1835, Maid’s Moreton. Parents Josiah and Maria Bright.

Maid’s Moreton is about a mile north of Buckingham.

1837
Josiah Bright baptised on 25 June 1837, Maid’s Moreton. Parents Josiah and Maria Bright.

1838
Thomas Bright baptised on 30 December 1838, Buckingham. Parents Josiah and Maria Bright.

1839
Thomas Bright dies Jan/Feb/March quarter 1839, Buckingham

1840
Esther Bright baptised 26 January 1840, Buckingham. Parents Josiah and Maria Bright.

1840
Josiah Bright died Jan/Feb/March 1840, Buckingham

1841 census
Prebend End, Bucks
Josiah Bright, 60, miller, not born in county
Maria Bright, 45, b.i.c.
Elizabeth Bright, 25, b.i.c.
Hester Bright, 6, b.i.c.

1841 census
Greenwich
Elizabeth Doughty, 45, washerwoman, born in country
George Doughty, 11, born in country

1842
Martha Bright born in Buckingham Jan/Feb/March quarter.

1844
Charlotte Bright baptised 29 September 1844, Buckingham. Parents Josiah and Maria Bright.

Josiah Bright appeared to show why he refused to pay a highway rate at Prebend End, Buckinghamshire.
Northampton Mercury, 31 May 1845

Josiah Bright made a special constable for the precinct of Prebend End.
Bucks Herald, 1846

1846
Martha Bright born in Buckingham, July/Aug/Sept quarter.

1848
Charlotte Bright died July/Aug/Sept quarter 1848, Buckingham

1851
4 May baptism, Charlotte Bright, dau of Josiah Bright, millier and Mary, Blackdown (???) Mill, Leek Wooton, Warwickshire

1851 census
Hill Wootton, Leek Wootton, Worcester
Josiah Bright, miller, b Tibberton, Glos.
Maria Bright, wife, b Whaddon, Bucks
Esther Bright, 11, born Buckingham
Martha Bright, 9, born Buckingham
Rosa Bright, 4, born Buckingham
Charlotte, 2 mo, born Wootton, Warwickshire

1851 census
Greenwich
Elizabeth Doughty, 57, head, charwoman, born London
George Doughty, 21, grandson, brushmaker, born Rotherhithe

There are concerns with this entry. Elizabeth seems young to be his grandmother and his place of birth doesn't tally with the birth record for the son of Josiah and Mary Ann.

However, there is a correction made to another charwoman on the page where the place of birth is crossed out and the Middlesex St Lukes inserted. Another person in that household was born in Rotherhithe. Another case of an enumerator messing up? There are three charwomen, all widows, living next door to one another on the census page.

1857
George Doughty marries Emma Parish in Deptford. George's father named as Josiah Bright, miller.

Why would George make this up if Josiah wasn't his father? It's an unusual name and ties in with the 1828 banns?

1861 census
King’s Head, Cubbington
Josiah Bright, 68, beerhouse keeper, born Tibberton, Glos
Maria Bright, wife, 45, born Whaddon, Bucks
Esther Bright, dau, 21, dress maker, born Whaddon, Bucks
Rosa Bright, dau, 14, pupil teacher, born Whaddon
Charlotte Bright, 10, born Wootton Hill, Warwickshire

Josiah Bright of Cubbington prosecuted for weights and measures offences
Leamington Spa Courier, 30 July 1864

1865
31 January 1865 death of Josiah Bright
3 February 1865, Josiah Bright buried in Cubbington. Age 71.

Death
Bright, on 31st ult at Cubbington, Mr Josiah Bright, grocer, aged 71 years.
Leamington Spa Courier, 11 February 1865

Death
Bright, at Hardwick School House, on the 27th ult, Maria, widow of Josiah Bright (late of Cubbington, Warwick) in the 83rd year of her age.
Bucks Herald, 4 January 1896

15 April 1873
Martha Bright marries David Roberts in Lillington, Warwickshire. He was a widower and naval schoolmaster at Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Plymouth. She was a spinster and school mistress. Both full age. Sister Esther was a witness.

21 Jan 1882
Jan 21st at Christ Church Cathedral, Colombo, William Smith, of Matale, Ceylon, to Charlotte Bright, of Fishponds College, Bristol, and youngest daughter of thelate Josiah Bright of Cubbington.
Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette, 2 March 1882

1896
Bright, at Hardwick School House, on the 27th ullt, Maria, widow of Josiah Bright (late of Cubbington, Warwick) in the 83rd year of her age.
Bucks Herald, 4 January 1896

[SBDFHS]

Thank you very much for that. I did a lot of that research the old way and it was a bit disorganized and on a hard drive in a computer that isn't used. It was kind of you and nice to see it laid out neatly.
I have no doubt this is the right Josiah, it is just working out if George was the son of the older Elizabeth, or of her daughter.

St Lukes, Finsbury is near Shoreditch and is about 3 miles from Rotherhithe, across the Thames via London Bridge.

My print of that census was made on a fiche reader at Greenwich LHL and is covered in scratch lines, so I never noticed the alterations. It was hard enough to decipher the names.

[Phoenix]

I used to think of the Thames as a barrier (I grew up south of the river and the North was another country) but doing research I find families yoyoing back and forth on a different side of the river on every census.

[SBDFHS]

I forgot this!

Name: Elizabeth Frances Doughty
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 23 Feb 1814
Christening Place: ST GEORGE THE MARTYR,SOUTHWARK,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 17 Jan 1814
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Richard Doughty
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Sarah

This makes her the right age to be George's mother, but very young. The names are right. Rotherhithe is not too far from Southwark. I just get more confused

[kiterunner]

One of my relatives puts birthplace Rotherhithe on one of the censuses although he was baptised in Southwark.

[kiterunner]

There is an Elizabeth Frances Doughty buried 13 May 1844 at St Giles, Camberwell, age 31, abode Sussex Place, Kent Road.

[kiterunner]

This is Elizabeth Frances on the 1841 census:
Sussex Place, St Giles Camberwell
Richd Doughty 60 Ind N
Richd Do 25 Y Cl
Sarah Do 55 N
Elizabeth Do 25 Y
Alfred Do 15 Cl Surveyor Y

[SBDFHS]

I think that rules her out then. That is probably the right census and her death. I wonder if she was infirm or disabled as she was unmarried and died fairly young. Thank you for that information.

I do note that Josiah would have been 35 at the time of the Whitechapel Banns, if he was the Tibberton one. That could tie in with Elizabeth Doughty being of a similar age, which talllies with her age in the 1841/51 censuses.

Found this

Name: Elizabeth Doughty
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 06 Oct 1799
Christening Place: SAINT LUKE OLD STREET,FINSBURY,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 07 Sep 1799
Father's Name: William Doughty
Mother's Name: Hannah

St Lukes to Whitechapel is about two miles.

Perhaps Elizabeth said she was older than she was to keep up the grandmother pretence?

These vague pre 1837 records are so easy to use to jump to conclusions, though