John Smellie, Engineer born Glasgow

[tenterfieldjulie]

It is a long time since I looked for Scottish records and I'm a bit unsure how to proceed. What is the best place to look? Scotland's People? Do I buy credits or ?
A friend has asked me last year (:o) to find John Smellie's birth C 1854.
John married Sarah Fulton in Port Augusta, South Australia on the 13 September, 1881, aged 27. He died in Freemantle, WA aged 65 on the 22 December 1919. His father was named as Thomas Smellie an Engineer and his mother Marion Lawrence. He was born in Glasgow, Scotland. Thanks. Julie

[kiterunner]

Yes, Scotland's People is the best, and yes, you have to buy credits to view search results and images. There are census transcriptions on ancestry and FMP, and FamilySearch has lots of baptisms and marriages but these are mostly pre-civil registration.
As John was born around the start of civil registration, either just before or just after, we should look for him on censuses and see if his baptism / birth is on FamilySearch before searching the civil registration index on SP though.

[kiterunner]

Ah yes, ancestry has them on the 1861 census at 24 Manse St., Renfrew, Renfrewshire:
Thomas Smellie 40 Engine Smith Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Marion Smellie 44 Bothwell, Lanarkshire
William Smellie 9 Scholar Glasgow, Lanarkshire
John Smellie 7 Scholar Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Isabella Smellie 5 Scholar Old Kilpatrick, Dumbartonshire.

The transcriptions on ancestry can be a bit ropey so best to check against the image on SP or the transcription on FMP. SP doesn't let you search by birthplace on the census so it does get annoying when people move from county to county like this lot!

Anyway, if John's age on there is right, he was born before the start of civil registration so you won't find his birth registration on SP but maybe there will be one for his little sister. John's baptism could be in the OPR records on there though I can't see it with a very quick look.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. I had a quick look on Famsearch, before it broke and I saw a birth in Lanarkshire, but wrong mother's name. There were quite a few Census records, but they seemed to carry on after he was out here. I will have a look at Ancestry this afternoon and see if I can find him in the Census with the right mother. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

We cross posted Kate that is wonderful. My friend will be so pleased .. and I won't be so embarrassssed .. You are brilliant. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

I had a look at Ancestry this afternoon and I was amazed at the number of Smellie's there were. Apparently it was originally Smaillie and is now Smillie.
I found the following in the Census who I think are the same family:

1841 - St. Paul's Glasgow
Thomas 20 - Joiner - Born Lanarkshire
Marion 25
Mary - 5 months

1851 Gorbals, Lanarkshire
Thomas 31 - Joiner (journeyman) Born Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Marion 38 ?
Margaret 7
William 4 months
Jane Brownlee 19
Agnes Kelly 17

1861 Renfrew
Thomas 40 - Engine Smith - Born Bothwell
Marion 44
William 9
John 7
Isabella 5

1871 - Renfrew
Marion 55
William 19
John 17 (apprentice patternmaker)
Jessie 24
Isabella 15
David Donaldson 3

1841 and 1851 are the same family. 1861 and 1871 are the same family.
Are all four the same family?
In the 1871 at Renfrew, Thomas is not present. Can anyone see what status is Marion in 1871 .. Married or Widowed? Thanks. Julie

[kiterunner]

1841 and 1851 are the same family. 1861 and 1871 are the same family.
Are all four the same family? Looks like it.
In the 1871 at Renfrew, Thomas is not present. Can anyone see what status is Marion in 1871 .. Married or Widowed? Thanks. Julie Ancestry has her as "wife".

[tenterfieldjulie]

List of children of Thomas and Marion Smellie from the Census -
Mary 5 months (1841 Census) Born 1841;
Margaret 7 (1851 Census) Born 1844;
*
William 4 months (1851 Census) Born 1851, 9 - (1861 Census) Born 1852, 19 (1871 Census) Born 1852;
John 7 (1861 Census) Born 1854, 17 (1871 Census) Born 1854;
Jessie 24 (1871 Census) Born 1847*.
I spoke to my friends in WA tonight and he was absolutely thrilled with what has been found. He has a niece who is very interested in FH and when I go West I hope to introduce her to GF..
From the Census I was able to track John's brother William and he had a very informative obituary saying he did his apprenticeship in Renfrew (which agreed with the census), but he was then in India with the Shipping Co., in Sydney, Perth (WA), London, San Francisco (he was there in the earthquake) finally he died in Sydney. I then looked on the BDM and while his family didn't know his father's name, his mother's name was written as Marion.. All this tied in with family folklore, but now it now has substance. So many thanks Kate.
Now to try to find baptisms, and marriage and deaths.
I will now to have to look earlier for the marriage, around 1840 and not 1850. Julie

[Glen TK]

Also bear in ming that early Scottish civil registration extracts have different information depending on the year of the event;

From 1855 to the present day
All birth certificates should include the following information:

Name
Sex
Date of birth
Time and place of birth
Name (and maiden surname) of mother
Name, rank, profession or occupation of father (if named)
Informants' details
Date and place of registration


Certificates issued in 1855 only Also have the following additional information


Mother: age and place of birth
Father: age and place of birth
Siblings: the number and gender of parents' other children are recorded, whether living or deceased


Date and place of parents' marriage is recorded on certificates in 1855 and from 1861 to the present day.

[kiterunner]

Yes, if you're lucky then Isabella's birth registration will be 1855 and you will get that extra info.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, this surely must be Isabella's birth (unfortunately not born 1855) on FamilySearch as the birthplace matches with the 1861 census:

Name: Isabella Smellie
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 13 Jan 1856
Birthplace: OLD KILPATRICK,DUNBARTON,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Thomas Smellie
Mother's Name: Marion Pettigrew
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11501-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
GS Film number: 6035516

So Marion's maiden name is Pettigrew, not Lawrence. And FamilySearch has a marriage between Thomas Smellie and Marion Pettigrew 4 Oct 1840 at Bothwell, Lanark. Also if you search for parents' names Thomas Smellie and Marion Pettigrew on FamilySearch, births or baptisms come up for:
Mary born 3 Jan 1841, christened 17 Jan 1841 Bothwell, Lanark
Margaret christened 25 Oct 1842 Glasgow, Lanark
Janet born 22 Jul 1844 Glasgow, Lanark (Jessie was a common nickname for Janet)
Elizabeth born 24 Mar 1849 Glasgow, Lanark
William born 20 Nov 1850, christened 8 Dec 1850 Gorbals, Lanark
as well as Isabella.

[JBee]

Wonder if your Smellies are any relation to a twig on OH's tree - his came from Edinburgh though and c1800.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Wow... how amazing that the name is Pettigrew, obviously the person filling in the death certificate had the wrong name. The informant is LB Green, Undertaker's Assistant so he either misheard, misread or the person gave the wrong information. Bob is going to be so amazed.
Kate .. Thank you that is wonderful.
Julie .. probably connected way back. I did see that the name was thought to be Smaillie originally, it Aus it became Smillie. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

Help .. John is the only one missing .. would you believe it!!

[kiterunner]

I can't find his baptism on Scotland's People either, Julie. :(

[tenterfieldjulie]

It's it amazing, the one you want .. Maybe it was an entry that was very hard to decipher. I found Williams on Famsearch but don't think it said what church.
John was buried Presbyterian and William Roman Catholic, but that probably doesn't reflect their baptisms.
Thanks for looking Kate.

[Uncle John]

Can't add anything, but just to mention that the name Smellie is pronounced Smiley (as is Smillie).

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks UJ.

[Macbev]

Julie, did you find the article in Trove about the cheque sent by William to John to repay a debt, that was picked up by another John Smellie in WA and fraudulently cashed? There was a court case about it you may find interesting

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/81322422?searchTerm=%22john%20smellie%22&searchLimits=l-title=175|||l-title=345|||l-title=344|||l-title=343|||l-title=275|||l-title=173|||l-title=221|||l-title=220|||l-title=386|||l-title=180|||l-title=181|||l-title=342|||l-title=73|||l-title=253|||l-title=254|||l-title=26|||l-title=28|||l-title=6|||l-title=341|||l-title=255|||l-title=93|||l-title=30|||l-title=98|||l-title=27|||l-title=99|||l-title=100|||l-title=29|||l-title=101|||dummyx

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Bev. Yes I saw that and sent it on to my friend. I've spent quite a bit of time correcting Trove recently lol .. William was actually living in San Francisco when the earthquake hit and he was reported in Trove as saying that he and others were safe.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I am wondering if Thomas Smellie, Born Bothwell Abt 1820, can be found in the 1871 Census?
In 1841 he was a Joiner (High Str Glasgow);
in 1851 he was a Joiner Journeyman (53 Commercial Rd, Gorbals);
in 1861 he was an Engine Smith (24 Manse St Renfrew).
In 1871 the family are living at Bell St., Renfrew. Marion is still listed as Wife, but Thomas is not with them.
The family lived up and down the Clyde from Glasgow to Dunbarton and so it is possible that Thomas was on board a ship, so would he be on the Census?
I cannot find Thomas or Marion on the 1881 Census, by which time both William and John are in Australia.
I have not found any of the girls, but I'd imagine they would have married, although I think some of them died in infancy. Thanks Julie

[kiterunner]

He could well be on a ship and therefore not on the 1871 census. I looked for him before but no luck.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. I couldn't find him either, but if you can't, then I am satisfied he isn't there .. I didn't realize how many Smellies there were!! Julie