Anyone speak Welsh - Davies ancestors

[tenterfieldjulie]

I am trying to unblock my Welsh ancestors brick wall:
From Free Reg I found my John Davies death registration: – Death - Sep Q 1890 – John Davies- 85 -Carmarthen - 11a 494, this agrees with the Burial Register of Llanstephan, Carmarthen - Buried- September 22nd, 1890, John Davies, Abode – The Green, Age - 85 years.
Then confusion for Mary Davies – three deaths in the Mar Q 1892: –
Age 72 – Carmarthen 11a 749; Age 78 – Carmarthen 11a 751; Age 70 – Carmarthen 11a 760.
Her burial Record at Llanstephan - buried- Feby 8th, 1892. Abode – The Green, Age - 86 years.

The age of 86 is consistent with her age through the Census from 1841-1891.
Unfortunately no birth record has been found to confirm it. It should be Mary Bowen Non-Conformist,
probably Methodist in 1805 at Newchurch/Llannewydd, Carmarthen.

Then From googling I found on Genuki for Carmathen Churches:
Hanes Eglwysi Annibynnol Cymru. (History of the Welsh Independent Churches)
By Thomas Rees & John Thomas; 4 volumes (published 1871+)
From CD published by Archive CD Books. Carmarthenshire section (Vol 3) Pgs 379 – 392

COFNODION BYWGRAPHYDDOL
JOHN DAVIES. Ganwyd ef yn y flwyddyn 1780, mewn lle a elwir Cwmerchydd, yn nghymydogaeth Henllan. Yr oedd pan yn ieuangc yn ysgafn a chellweirus, a dywedir iddo unwaith ar dir Pantyffynon, wneyd gwawd o un o'r ordinhadau sanctaidd nes peri fod rhagfarn yn meddyliau llawer yn ei erbyn dros ei oes. Derbyniwyd ef yn aelod yn Henllan, a buan y dangosodd ei fod yn meddu talentau uwchlaw ei gyfoedion, ac anogwyd ef i ddechreu pregethu. Derbyniwyd ef i Athrofa Caerfyrddin tua'r flwyddyn 1799, ac yno gwnaeth gynydd cyflym mewn dysgeidiaeth. Daeth yn alluog i bregethu Saesneg yn rhwydd. Derbyniodd alwad o Bethlehem, ac urddwyd ef yno yn y flwyddyn 1803. Yr oedd yn ddyn ieuangc o ymddangosiad boneddigaidd ond ei fod yn lled eiddil, ac yn ddarostyngedig i bruddglwyfder meddwl, ond yr oedd yn anarferol o boblogaidd fel pregethwr, ac yn llawn o ysbryd cyhoeddus. Cyrchai i'r rhan fwyaf o Gymanfaoedd y wlad, ac am y deng mlynedd cyntaf o'r ganrif hon nid oedd odid neb yn fwy derbyniol gan y cynnulleidfaoedd. Nid yn mater ei bregethau y rhagorai gymaint ag yn ei ddawn i draddodi; ac etto y mae yn eglur nad oedd yn amddifad o allu. Pan y cytunwyd yn Nghymanfa Abertawy, yn y flwyddyn 1806, i ddwyn allan gyhoeddiad bychan yn chwarterol, enwyd ef yn un o'r Golygwyr, gyda D. Peter, Caerfyrddin ; D. Davies, Llanybri; M. Jones, Trelech ; W. Griffith, Glandwr ; a J. Lloyd, Henllan. Heblaw Bethlehem a Lacharn bu Bethania, Llanon, am yspaid dan ei weinidogaeth, a chyrchai yno yn gyson er pelled ei ffordd' a bu ar un adeg yn gofalu am St. Florence, sir Benfro. Cyfarfu a thrallodion blinion yn y weinidogaeth fel y gwelsom, ond y mae yn debyg y gallasai gyda phwyll a doethineb ysgoi llawer o honynt; ond dichon fod ei dymer bruddglwyfus yn cyfrif am ei fyrbwylldra. Mae coffadwriaeth barchus iddo yn y wlad lle y llafuriodd, a'r argraff yn gyffredinol mai dyn Duw ydoedd. Bu farw Ebrill 12fed, 1814' yn 34 oed' a chladdwyd ef yn mynwent Bethlehem, lle y mae cofadail wedi ei chodi ar ei fedd ac arni deyrnged uchel i'w goffadwriaeth.

I know John Davies is a common name .. but does anyone read Welsh .. is there any connection? Could he be my John Davies father. Thank you. Julie

[kiterunner]

I don't speak Welsh, but if you copy and paste it into Google Translate, it seems to give a fair idea of what it says.

[kiterunner]

As for Mary's death, maybe she died away from home and so was registered in a different district?

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks for both those Kate .. I will go see ..

[Shona]

The chap in the Welsh text was born in 1780 and died in 1812.

[tenterfieldjulie]

BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES
JOHN DAVIES. He was born in the year 1780 in a place called Cwmerchydd, in the neighborhood of Henllan. It was when he was young and joked lightly, and is said to Pantyffynon:eek: once on land, wneyd:( scorn of sacred ordinances of the irate that prejudice in the minds of many against it over its lifetime. He was admitted in Henllan, and soon showed that he possesses talents above his peers, and he was urged to start preaching. He was accepted at Carmarthen around 1799, where he made rapid progress in teaching. It became readily able to preach in English. He received a call from Bethlehem, where he was ordained in 1803. He was a young man of gentlemanly appearance but is fairly weak, and subject to bruddglwyfder :confused: mind, but it was unusually popular as a preacher, and full of public spirit. Most would send Calvinistic country, and for the first ten years of this century there was probably no one more acceptable by the congregations. His sermons are not the issue as much as he excelled in its ability to deliver, and yet it is clear that it was not devoid of ability. When the convocation agreed in Swansea, in 1806, to bring out a small quarterly publication, he was named as one of the Editor, with D. Peter, Carmarthen; D. Davies, Llanybri; M. Jones, Trelech; W. Griffith, Landore, and J. Lloyd, Henllan. Besides Bethlehem and Bethany had Laugharne, Service Station, for a while under his ministry, and he traveled there in a way so as long as it 'and for a time in the care of St. Florence, Pembrokeshire. Troublous met and tribulations in the ministry as we have seen, but it is probable that he could with prudence and wisdom priming lot of them, but surely his temper depressed accounted for his impulsivity. A memorial to respectable in the country where he labored, and the general impression was that the man of God. He died April 12, 1814 'aged 34' and was buried in Bethlehem Cemetery, where a monument was erected on his grave and her tribute to his memory.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Shona .. not sure if there is a connection .. but it might have some connection. Mary Bowen's apparent pedigree would appear to be a good fit for his son.

[tenterfieldjulie]

There are two 86 Mary Davies dying in that quarter in Wales - Aberavron and Newtown. With 12 children she could be anywhere. Maybe I should try and trace the other children through the Census .. yikes with names like Davies ..

[kiterunner]

You could try searching on the free Welsh Newspapers Online website to see if there was a death notice?
http://papuraunewyddcymru.llgc.org.uk/en/home?

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. I will have a look.
I was having a look at the records of the Ebenezer Baptist Chapel in Llangynog where the first children's birth's were recorded. It was interesting that the first few surnames were Bowan and the wife was Sophia. John and Mary's 2nd daughter birth was recorded there as Sopheah and then changed to Sophia. It doesn't sound a Welsh name? Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

I couldn't find one Kate. I'll look again tomorrow when the Welsh isn't so confusing lol.
It is a shame that the database isn't earlier as we might have found their marriage. I couldn't find it on Freereg but found it on Famsearch. I think it could have been Methodist?

[kiterunner]

I couldn't find one Kate. I'll look again tomorrow when the Welsh isn't so confusing lol.
It is a shame that the database isn't earlier as we might have found their marriage. I couldn't find it on Freereg but found it on Famsearch. I think it could have been Methodist?

Do you mean the John Davies / Mary Bowen marriage 5 Oct 1826 at Newtown, Carmarthenshire? They didn't have Methodist marriages in those days. It says on FamilySearch that it is taken from the parish registers, so the image should be on Findmypast.

Also I don't think that many people had their births, marriages and deaths in the newspaper in those days because not many people could read it!

[Zoemcdougall]

Julie, I speak welsh, will translate it for you. will have to do it later when I have my 2 boys in bed.

[Uncle John]

There are two 86 Mary Davies dying in that quarter in Wales - Aberavron and Newtown. With 12 children she could be anywhere. Maybe I should try and trace the other children through the Census .. yikes with names like Davies ..

Aberayron sounds a more likely Welsh place name.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate, Zoe and UJ for your interest..
I have loved my three visits to Carmarthenshire and the people I've met.
I've always had a love of Welsh singing too as did my grandmother whose grandfather was the Welshman who came to Australia. Nan used to tell me so many stories of her Cornish ancestors I just wish I had talked to her about her Welsh forebears.
Listening to Welsh being spoken sounds so beautiful and always think that I'd love to learn to speak it.. Think I'm running out of time for that though.

[Zoemcdougall]

Julie I will PM you later. I am teaching my 2 boys to speak welsh much to the the amusement of their dad. My paternal grandparents would only speak in welsh with the exception of one my mum, she couldn't speak welsh. It's never to late. My grandad spoke different dialect of welsh to my grandmother, hers was a softly spoken welsh, she lived a 10 min walkway from the beautiful village of Portmeirion.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Zoe.
I found this on Free Reg
Carmarthenshire County;
Henllan Amgoed Place;
Henllan Independent Church;
Baptism Date 19 Jun 1805;
Forename John; Sex M;
Father Surname Davies;
Abode Rhod Lanboidy Parish;
File No. 23959.
- which would tie in I think with the minister who I posted about.
The right date for my John Davies. Unfortunately it does not give any details about his parents. Julie

[kiterunner]

The image for that one is on the BMD Registers website, Julie (pay per view). It has two John Davies entries listed for that church in 1805 (ref no RG4/3771) which may be two different people or both for the same person. I don't think it shows parents' names on there either, but it's possible there is extra info. But quite likely FreeREG have transcribed all that it says.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I've just been looking at the Archives Wales site and it says that there are some differences between English and Welsh records:

"Most English local authority archives are diocesan record offices and therefore hold all the records of the diocese, such as Wills, bishops' transcripts and marriage bonds and licences, as well as parish records. In Wales, the National Library of Wales is the diocesan record office for the whole of Wales, and therefore holds all the bishops' transcripts, marriage bonds and licences, and Wills proved in Welsh church courts".

I am wondering if a visit to the National Library of Wales may hold information relevant to my family. Julie

Ooh they had a fire there recently didn't they. I wonder what was damaged.

[kiterunner]

The wills are available free online at the National Library of Wales website:
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en

Also the marriage bonds etc:
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=fh&lng=en


The parish registers are on Findmypast.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate the wills might be useful if I ever find John's father as they are only up to 1858. I found three marriage bonds for John Davies and Mary Bowen - dated 1786, 1795 and 1809 unfortunately.
I had a look on Freebmd and found the marriage of Henry B Davies to Agnes Dalton Prytherch in June 1871 Carmarthen, on the same page was Jane Gunnis Davies to John Treharne. Henry had a sister Jane ..
I found the baptism of the children of Daniel and Caroline Georgina Catherine Prytherch. I think Caroline had a penchance for long names, maybe a carryover from her being born in India!! .. born 1828 Caroline Ayliffe Harriot Dalton Prytherch, 1830-1839 Margaret Augusta Dalton Prytherch, 1833 Charlotte Augusta Dalton Prytherch, 1835 Frances Sarah Dalton Prytherch, 1837 Susan Catherine Dalton Prytherch, 1839 August Octavia Dalton Prytherch, 1842 Edward Dalton Prytherch, 1844 John Dalton Prytherch, 1845 Agnes Dalton Prytherch, 1846 Blanch Dalton Prytherch. Found some interesting info on Ancestry on Public Tree but they didn't appear to know much more than the marriage of Agnes and Henry. I did find Daniel's will in 1854 where Agnes is left money. Agnes mother was Caroline Dalton hence the double name.. There is a Dalton Genealogical Soc and an item says that in 1409 a Dalton married Agnes Hebburn and he got some land as her dowry. I wonder if Henry B Davies left a will .. I couldn't find one for his father John.
I am going to be permanently glued to the computer when I get a sub to FMP .. Soon hopefully. Many thanks Kate. Have to head off early tonight .. 3 nights after midnight are catching up. Cheers. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

Got to add this before I head off - I've got to a get a copy of the book and see who he is referring to???

“ROYAL MISTRESSES AND BASTARDS” – ANTHONY J. CAMP
ADDENDA and CORRIGENDA
Additional information received since the publication of the book
MY BIOGRAPHY ADDENDA ROBERT FAIRBROTHER MRS FITZGEORGE ANCESTRY OF MRS JORDAN GEORGE FITZGEORGE FITZGEORGE PARKER ROSA (BARING) FITZGEORGE
Page 44 Line 30, re Daniel Prytherch
[I am indebted to Mr John Prytherch for the information that the marriage of Caroline Georgiana Catherine (Augusta) Dalton and Daniel Prytherch took place on 18 February 1826 at Llanllwch, Carmarthenshire].
Their children were ….
12d. Agnes Dalton Prytherch, baptised at St Peter, Carmarthen, 30 June 1845 [BTs, Entry 303]. Scholar at home, 1851 [Census]; named in will of father, 1854; with mother, unmarried, annuitant, 1871 [Census]; living 1901. She had married in Carmarthen RD, June Quarter 1871, Henry Bowen Davies [GRO Marriage Index]. Living 1901.

Well you find something in unlikely places … Henry Davies 2nd name is confirmed from another source as Bowen .. which adds to the confirmation that we have the right family.

The only way that we had a connection from my ancestor originally, is that one of his children had a Christian name of Bowen. Then we found the marriage at Newchurch of John Davies and Mary Bowen. Then no definite proof until the Census said she was born in Newchurch, but with a name like Davies every little connection helps.

Now this extra proof of Thomas brother’s name being cited as Bowen in a GRO Marriage, is really great, even if it is an addenda to a book about Royal Mistresses and Badstarts:o !! Cheers Julie PS I wonder whether a child having the name of Esplin means anything .. can't find any connection from the Cornish side!! lol

[kiterunner]

Thanks Kate the wills might be useful if I ever find John's father as they are only up to 1858.
The post-1858 ones are listed in the National Probate Calendar (which is on ancestry.)

She had married in Carmarthen RD, June Quarter 1871, Henry Bowen Davies [GRO Marriage Index]. Now this extra proof of Thomas brother’s name being cited as Bowen in a GRO Marriage, is really great, even if it is an addenda to a book about Royal Mistresses and Badstarts

His name is only shown as Henry B Davies on the GRO marriage index, so the author must have got the full middle name from somewhere else.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. I hope to squeeze in a trip to the library this morning.
John Prytherch, I think I read, lives in Australia, so I hope to be able to contact him and see if he has any other info.
On Familysearch Community trees – From the Wales, Welsh Medieval Database Primarily of Nobility and Gentry - is Agnes Prytherch of Abergolau, Brechfa, Llanegwad, Carmarthenshire, Wales, married Henry Davies. Unfortunately no other information about them.

[Zoemcdougall]

How do I send an attachment

[tenterfieldjulie]

Zoe sent you a private message and an email. Then I went to send you another Pm and your box is full so you will need to empty a few lol Cheers .. Many thanks Julie

[Zoemcdougall]

I have emptied a few of my messages Julie, will email you.

Regards

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

I have just emailed you Julie

Regards

Zoe

[tenterfieldjulie]

Zoe that is wonderful thank you. If my John Davies is connected to him it certainly gives a lot of detail.. The dates are right, as Rev John is born 1780 and my John 1805. It would explain why my John's youngest son was considered a suitable husband for a Dalton Prytherch .. but I need a lot more dots to connect. Maybe oneday. Cheers. Julie

[Zoemcdougall]

You're more than welcome.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Well I am stunned .. absolutely .. who would have believed it !!!
I've just been googling and looking at a thread on a BG forum ... on Hannah Lightfoot - the Fair Quaker .. now whether it is right or not!!! amazing ..
It doesn't appear that the claim to Royalty was the other side of the blanket at all .. but did they "Do "Er In?" as Eliza said..
But the questions apart from the Royalty one .. How was it acceptable for the daughter of the former Mayor of Carmarthen to marry my grandmother's greatuncle, especially if they had the Royal connections? If Caroline thought she was George III's grand daughter, why was she lodging at Llanstephan with my grandmother's greatgrandparents?
The following is some of the interesting bits that I extracted from the thread on BG
"Searching for Hannah Lightfoot, the fair Quaker, who some believe married George III when he was Prince of Wales. Whatever the truth she disappeared in December 1753 and was never seen by her family again. Her portrait was painted by Joshua Reynolds in about 1755/56. Trying to locate her time and place of death and where she is buried?
Anyway, of relevance is the supposed daughter of Hannah Lightfoot, [Catherine] Augusta Ritso (aka Sarah). She was born supposedly in India. Her husband James Dalton (originally from Carmarthenshire) worked for the East India Company. The Dalton's and Ritso's seem all mixed up in this. My family, the Prytherch's also seem quite involved. Daniel Prytherch (ex mayor of Carmarthen) married Augusta's daughter Caroline Georgina Catherin Dalton somewhere around 1825. She was also born in India (Madras 1807).
All the children of Catherine and James Dalton were born in India and were all baptised on the 20th October 1813 in Madras.
When the tomb of Charlotte Augusta Catherine Dalton and her nine year old niece, Margaret Prytherch - the second daughter of Daniel Prytherch, one time Mayor of Carmarthen were discovered in a prime location under the floor of St. Peter's Church, Carmarthen a few years ago there was great excitement in the Press and speculation that the prominence of the grave's position must indicate some preferment. Only limited access was allowed and no DNA testing could be carried out.

The following might interest you. I have only today found a hand written Prytherch Pedigree (I think it was written by my aunt). I'll start from the bottom:
Daniel Prytherch 1892 - 1981 (my Grandfather)
Evan Prytherch Ystrad Farm 1859 - 1938
Rhys Prytherch 1778 - 1862
James Prytherch Glynmoch (1751 - 1809) - Steward of Glanbrydan Estate
Daniel Prytherch (? - 1756)
Rees Prytherch (1605 - 1699) of Ystrad Walter- Apparently educated Oxford gained a M.A..
Descendants of the ap Rhydderch family - the ap before surname discontinued in 1600,s thus becoming Prytherch by keeping the 'p'p from ap. Rees Prytherch further anglicised his name by replacing 'dd' with 'th'. The line dates back further to include Rhdderch Llwyd, Lord Rhys, Cadell and Rhodri Fawr. How accurate it is is up for debate.

A bit more on Hanna Lightfoot. Also buried in the chancel is Charlotte Augusta Catherine Dalton (died 1832 aged 27 years), grand-daughter of King George III and his first wife, Hannah Lightfoot, (married in 1759).
Sharing her tomb is her niece, Margaret Augusta Prytherch (died 1839 aged 8 years), great-grand-daughter of the king. The large brick vaulted tomb, with a domed roof, situated in the centre of the chancel and directly in front of the altar, was found by archaeologists in September 2000 during restoration work. It was clearly marked with a stone memorial slab giving the family connections and dates. It is not known whether the burial was a secret affair but, certainly, no record was kept and knowledge of the burial was not handed down through the generations. The tomb and memorial had lay hidden under a tiled floor since the 1870s.
The then Prince of Wales had fallen in love with Hannah Lightfoot, a London Quaker girl and daughter of a London linen-draper, and married her in complete secrecy at Kew on the outskirts of London on 17th April, 1759. They went on to have three children. Two years after their wedding, in 1761, now king, he married Charlotte Sophia of Mecklenburg-Strelitz who became his queen.

My Nan is my avatar .. Miriam Symons Smith nee Bryant, mother Catherine Bryant nee Davies, Catherine's father, Thomas Davies, brother to Henry Bowen Davies, their parents John and Mary Davies nee Bowen of Carmarthenshire (Llangunnock and Llanstephan)

[tenterfieldjulie]

Daniel Prytherch
1796 - 1854

Born 27Sep 1796 of, Abergolau, Brechfa, Llanegwad, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Christened 1 Nov 1796 Brechfa, Llanegwad, Carmarthenshire, Wales [10]

Gender Male
Died 1854 [12]

Notes KINSHIP: Only son and heir. (Burke, Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and Ireland, 1850 vol. 3 p. 269
OFFICE: Justice of the Peace and Deputy Lieutenant of Carmarthen. (John Daniel Prytherch and Robin James Prytherch "The Prytherchs of Abergolau", The Carmarthenshire Antiquary, vol. 40 p. 57)
OFFICE: Mayor of Caerfyrddin Sain Pedr, 1824 and 1831. (John Daniel Prytherch and Robin James Prytherch "The Prytherchs of Abergolau", The Carmarthenshire Antiquary, vol. 40 p. 57)

DISTINCTION: Esquire. (Burke, Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and Ireland, 1850 vol. 3 p. 269)

LIVING: Mentioned in the will of his grandmother Anne (Daniel) Prytherch, dated 4 Mar 1801. (Public Records Office, The National Archives, Probate: Anne Prytherch: Catalogue Reference:IR/26/408, Image Reference:154> courtesy of Michael Newman [[email protected]])
RESIDENCE: Abergoleu and Caerfyrddin.
RESIDENCE: Abergole, Carmarthenshire. (Burke, Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and Ireland, 1850 vol. 3 p. 269)
RESIDENCE: Priory Street, Caerfyddin Sain Pedr; 1840. (Community Trees - Proposed Changes: Patron: Michael Newman [[email protected]]> parish records, Saint Peter, Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire> year 1840 page 1)
PROPERTY: At his death he owned 9 farms, totalling 890 acres, 8 houses, and 3 cottages. His entire estate was sold at public autions held in Nov 1890. (John Daniel Prytherch and Robin James Prytherch "The Prytherchs of Abergolau", The Carmarthenshire Antiquary, vol. 40 p. 57)

PROBATE: Will proved 1855; settled 36 years after his death. (John Daniel Prytherch and Robin James Prytherch "The Prytherchs of Abergolau", The Carmarthenshire Antiquary, vol. 40 p. 57)
PROBATE: Will dated 10 Nov 1854; will proved 29 Jan 1855. (Public Records Office, The National Archives, Probate: Daniel Prytherch: Catalogue Reference:Prob 11/2205, Image Reference:501> courtesy of Michael Newman [[email protected]])
PROBATE: Contents> Daniel Prytherch of the Borough of Carmarthen. (Public Records Office, The National Archives, Probate: Daniel Prytherch: Catalogue Reference:Prob 11/2205, Image Reference:501> courtesy of Michael Newman [[email protected]])
PROBATE: Bequeaths> wife Caroline Georgina Catherine; daughters Caroline Aylife Harriott Dalton Prytherch and Frances Sarah Dalton Prytherch (older daughters); eldest son Daniel Dalton Prytherch; 2nd son James Dalton Prytherch; 3rd son Edward Dalton Prytherch; youngest son John Dalton Prytherch; daughters, Augusta Ottavia Dalton; Adelaide Dalton, Agnese Dalton, and Blanche Dalton. (Public Records Office, The National Archives, Probate: Daniel Prytherch: Catalogue Reference:Prob 11/2205, Image Reference:501> courtesy of Michael Newman [[email protected]])
Person ID I138279 Wales. Welsh Medieval Database Primarily of Nobility and Gentry.


Father Daniel Prytherch, b. 1774, of, Abergolau, Brechfa, Llanegwad, Carmarthenshire, Wales , d. 1800
Mother Margaret Dalton, of, Caerfyrddin Sain Pedr, Carmarthenshire, Wales , d. 13 Dec 1820

The question is .. would it be considered acceptable for Agnese Dalton Prytherch, daughter of a former Mayor of Carmarthen, a large land owner, her mother dau of Dr born in India with possible royal connections, to marry a village grocer, son of a small farmer in Wales in the 1870s?
What would have been the social restrictions of that era?
Does this suggest that they moved in the same social circles?
Does this give clout to Henry being the grandson of The Rev John Davies who Zoe translated his Bio - it ended "He died on April 12th, 1814 aged 34, and was buried in Bethel cemetery, where a memorial stone has been erected on his grave, bearing a tribute full of praise in his memory."
I can't find his death, where Bethel cemetery is and if Rev John married .... I'm not sure whether he was Rev or elder .. whether he was Wesleyan or Baptist? .. heeeelp............. Julie

[kiterunner]

I can't find his death, where Bethel cemetery is

There is some info about Bethlehem Cemetery on Zoe's Rootschat thread where she asked for help in translating it:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=648059.0

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate .. Bethlehem (St. Clears) is quite close to Llangunnock (Llangynog). I would have driven right past it.
Very sad about John Davies the Baptist minister and his community. He suffered too from depression, as did George III.
When I go back to Carmarthen I will have lots more questions and places to see. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

In 1881 Census, John Davies 80 is a Lab and Mary 76 Lab's wife, are living at the Green, Llanstephan. (Written under the Green is ? House?) John Davies died in September 1890, aged 85 of the Green, Llansteffan, Carmarthenshire. In the 1891 Census living at Corner Cottage is Mary wid 86 Living on own means, Henry son 38 Living on own means, Agnes dau in law 46 living on own means. In the 1851 Census Daniel Prytherch is listed as Magistrate for County and landed proprietor. When Agnes died of Dalton-Villa Llanstephan (wife of Henry Bowen Davies) her estate to the said gentleman, effects were 198 pounds, so she didn't inherit a lot from her father. Query is how was Mary Davies living on her own means in 1891. Did she inherit from John? I have not found his will. I have not looked for a will for Henry, which might give me answers. I'm crazy, I should have looked for a will for Mary first .. oh rabbits. Julie

[kiterunner]

In 1881 Census, John Davies 80 is a Lab and Mary 76 Lab's wife, are living at the Green, Llanstephan. (Written under the Green is ? House?)

Priv house, short for private (some on the previous page have Private House or Private H).

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. I think this Red Herring of Royalty is addling my brain lol Julie (my excuse)
Daniel Prytherch's estate property was sold up in November 1890. I wonder if that has relevance? You would wonder how it would effect Mary Davies though? Julie

[kiterunner]

When Agnes died of Dalton-Villa Llanstephan (wife of Henry Bowen Davies) her estate to the said gentleman, effects were 198 pounds, so she didn't inherit a lot from her father. Query is how was Mary Davies living on her own means in 1891. Did she inherit from John? I have not found his will. I have not looked for a will for Henry, which might give me answers. I'm crazy, I should have looked for a will for Mary first .. oh rabbits.

The fact that Agnes left £198 doesn't mean that she didn't inherit a lot from her father, because she could have given it away or spent/ wasted it during her lifetime, or she could have been left a life interest in the estate which passed to someone else on her death. I've had a look at the National Probate Calendar for John, Mary and Henry but couldn't find any of them. But if we had exact dates of death for Mary and Henry I would look again.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate, Mary Davies was buried at Llanstephan 8 Feb 1892 and Henry Bowen Davies died in the Dec quarter of 1920 Carmarthen.

[kiterunner]

I still can't see a probate entry for either of them.

[tenterfieldjulie]

That is very strange. Is there anyway I can trace ownership of Corner Cottage?

[kiterunner]

I don't know, Julie.

Have you had a go at looking through the wills on the National Library of Wales site to see whether any of them mention John and /or Mary? They are free to search and view. You could try looking at all the Davies / Davies / David wills for Llangynog, for instance.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. I will return .. sometime soon I hope lol .. I thought my Smiths would hard to track, but Davies in Wales!! .. Not sure how Henry the grocer, became a gentleman .. Cheers. Julie