Theophilus Butcher/Susannah Salmon marriage

[Sue from Southend]

There is a marriage licence dated 1777 for this couple on Ancestry but no marriage. On FMP there is a marriage indexed at St Andrew Undershaft 1777 but I no longer have a sub :( Could sks please have a look at the FMP marriage for me to see if it is actually that or another record of a licence for a marriage that may not have happened! I should point out that I have gone through the marriages at St Andrew Undershaft for that year and the years either side and there isn't one for this couple :)

Many thanks

[ElizabethHerts]

There's no extra information, Sue.
It's taken from Boyd's Marriage Index.

Unfortunately there's no image either.

[Sue from Southend]

Thanks for looking Elizabeth.

I'm trying to work out whether Theophilus was my 4x Gt Grandfather (for several years actually :d) .....

[suffolksue]

Have you looked in the Surrey and London Marriage Bonds and Allegations, some very interesting info there.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=SurreyMarriage&so=2&rank=0&gsfn=theophilus&gsln=butcher&sx=&gs1co=1%2cAll+Countries&gs1pl=1%2c+&year=&yearend=&sbo=1&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&db=&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-c&o_iid=21417&o_lid=21417&o_sch=Web+Property&offerid=0%3a21318%3a0

[Sue from Southend]

Yes, thanks Sue, that was what I meant when I wrote "marriage licence" :o

My problem is that I can't find an actual marriage or any children with Susannah. There are children b1780s to a Theophilus and Rebecca Butcher but again I can't find a marriage. I'm now beginning to wonder if there are two Theophilus Butchers! The one that fathered the children was a Cooper moving from the City of London to the Stepney area . I've found his City of London papers etc. Then there is a Theophilus who crops up in the same time frame and annoyingly in the same areas on Old Bailey on line where it appears he was some kind of officer of the law. Or was it possible to be both Cooper and "officer" :confused:

[Shona]

I can find a Theophilus Butcher and a Rebecca having children in London, but can't find any to Theophilus and a Susanna.

The three children are:

- John, born 23 June 1781, baptised 9 July St Paul Deptford
- Joseph, born 12 May 1783, baptised 15 May St Lukes, Old Street
- James, baptised 5 June 1785, St Katherine by the Tower

There is a Theophilus Butcher who keep appearing at the Old Bailey and other courts in the 1770s and 1780s giving evidence as a policeman.

[Shona]

We cross posted, Sue!

Of course, there were no policemen around back then. However, men were hired by magistrates to enforce their decisions - apprehending suspects, escorting them to court and prison, etc.

[Sue from Southend]

Thanks Shona - at least you've confirmed that I haven't missed any children of Theophilus and Susannah!

Do you think it was possible that a Cooper could also be an "officer"?

[Lindsay]

Weren't parish constables elected at that time? I have someone who was elected headborough (sort of constable) in the early 19th century - details in the parish records.

Having said that, I think it was only for a year, so it depends how long your constable seems to have served. And I imagine it was the sort of thing you might hire someone else to do in your place.

[Shona]

Thanks Shona - at least you've confirmed that I haven't missed any children of Theophilus and Susannah!

Do you think it was possible that a Cooper could also be an "officer"?

I think it is possible. He may have been a cooper by trade, but was also an officer or took that work up later. Thief takers, constables and runners weren't liked by people, so he may simply have used his original trade in the baptism records. Have you cross-checked the dates when he appears at the Old Bailey with the baptism dates?

[Sue from Southend]

I think it is possible. He may have been a cooper by trade, but was also an officer or took that work up later. Thief takers, constables and runners weren't liked by people, so he may simply have used his original trade in the baptism records. Have you cross-checked the dates when he appears at the Old Bailey with the baptism dates?

Good idea, Shona!

The Old Bailey records span 1786 - 1795, the last of the three baptisms are in 1785. In 1799 his son James was apprenticed to Theophilus as a Cooper and his Will dated 1815 says he is a Cooper. So it looks as though he may have had a ten year period as an officer of the law and then reverted to his trade after that.

Which is all very interesting but doesn't tell me the maiden name of his wife or whether he was the father of my 3xgt Grandfather Joseph Butcher!

[Sue from Southend]

I've just found the Will of Susannah Butcher, wife of Theophilus, dated 1810! It's on Ancestry and has 19 pages in total all of which are scanned sideways!

Off to investigate.

I may be some time.....

[Shona]

Let us know what you find.

[Sue from Southend]

I think I've got the gist of it.

At the time of her Will in 1810 Theophilus and Susannah were living apart. Her Will (which is a very bad scan) is full of bequests to friends etc. No children as far as I can read. The Will is only three pages. The following ten pages are the details of a legal document drawn up in 1801 whereby Susannah (who had inherited a large some of money, stocks etc) settled £1850 on Theophilus and ties the rest up so no other man can get his hands on it while she's still alive! Unfortunately there's no mention of any children that Theophilus may have had with another woman.

So, it looks to me as though they separated fairly soon after the marriage and Theophilus took Rebecca as a common law wife for want of a better expression! On the occasion of Susannah inheriting a third share of £18000 he stakes a claim and Susannah and her lawyers work out the deal.

Assuming that the above is correct I'm unlikely to ever find out Rebecca's real surname and my hope of tying Joseph Butcher to her and Theophilus is rapidly vanishing :mad:

[Shona]

Fascinating, Sue.

[Sue from Southend]

I've found Rebecca!

There's a burial 14 Jan 1806 for a Rebecca Manuel Butcher in St Katherines by the Tower which is where Theophilus was buried in 1815. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1624&iid=31281_A101718-00042&fn=Rebecca+Manuel&ln=Butcher&st=d&ssrc=&pid=7191545
I then found them in 1804 on London Land tax records in the same house in that parish http://search.ancestry.co.uk/browse/view.aspx?dbid=2170&iid=31364_606246_1275-00022&pid=17195552&ssrc=&fn=Rebeca&ln=Manuel&st=g

Going back to my 3x gt grandfather, Joseph Butcher, who may or may not be the son of Rebecca, the informant on his death certificate was a cousin Sarah Hodges. I'm now trying to find a link between Hodges/Butcher/Manuel to prove or disprove the relationship. I did wonder if Rebecca might have been Jewish? Manuel being a corruption of Emmanuel perhaps? Any thoughts welcome!

[kiterunner]

Does the cert give Sarah's address, and what is the date on it?

[Sue from Southend]

Does the cert give Sarah's address, and what is the date on it?

The certificate is dated March 1842.

The informant is Sarah Hodges, cousin, present at death No11 Petticoat Lane. And she made her mark.

Petticoat Lane is Whitechapel. Joseph was living @ Dukes St, Old Artillery Ground, Whitechapel

I believe I checked the address when I had a sub for FMP and she wasn't there in 1841 (but I may be wrong, I frequently am!!) or '51

I have been wondering if cousin is loose term, perhaps she was his wife's cousin? In which case we're looking for Underhay/Leveridge links ;(

Thanks for looking Kite