Grandfather's family next steps [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 11:42

Hi there,

I'm looking for a bit of expert advice or some helpful pointers as to what to do next in researching my Grandfather's family.

My paternal Grandfather divorced my Grandmother sometime in the 1940s-50s, and I never met him. I know his name (Cyril William Powell), and I've been able to get as far as having his birth certificate, death certificate and marriage certificate to my Grandmother.

But now I'm a little stuck. From birth & marriage certificate I have my Great-grandfather's name - John Powell - but it's very commonplace - and the family origins are around Shrewsbury, which again has a lot of Powells. Grandfather was born in 1915, so I can't access any census information about him.

Great-grandfather John Powell was a policeman in Shrewsbury - and was retired by 1942 (from my Grandfather & Grandmother's marriage certificate). Grandfather's mother was Mary Ann Griffiths. I don't know exact date of birth for either John or Mary Ann though.

One other question mark is over one of the witnesses to Gfather & Gmother's marriage - Phyllis Joy Powell. I don't know who she is, but I think it's reasonable to infer that she's a relative - perhaps cousin or aunt.

I've tried guesswork, and I've got a few potential leads from the 1911 census, but nothing concrete past this point because of lack of census data for Grandfather. Sadly, there's no-one left in my family to ask - my Dad and my Grandmother are both dead and it was never really a topic of conversation I felt I could bring up.

Can anyone offer me a bit of help as to next steps?

Thanks very much :)

ElizabethHerts

05-04-13, 12:33

Welcome to GF!

For the record, it seems that John Powell married Mary Ann Griffiths in the June quarter at Ellesmere, Shropshire.

ElizabethHerts

05-04-13, 12:38

This could be the Phyllis Joy Powell who was witness:

Name: POWELL, Phyllis I
Apr-May-Jun 1919
Mother's maiden name: Griffiths
Volume no: 6A
Page no: 900

I know it says I but Is and Js frequently become mis-transcribed.

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 12:38

Oh... did you get that through a search on ancestry.co.uk? Whenever I look up those names there seems to be multiple records.

kiterunner

05-04-13, 12:44

Welcome to GF!

For the record, it seems that John Powell married Mary Ann Griffiths in the June quarter at Ellesmere, Shropshire.

The June quarter of 1909, that is! And Ellesmere is just the name of the civil registration district. Volume number is 6a and page number 1572.

Shropshire BMD website shows the marriage between John Powell and Mary A Griffiths as taking place at Great Ness, Shrewsbury in 1909. Reference number is C-S25/1/229 but online ordering is not available - it will give you an order form to print out though.

If you order a copy of John and Mary Ann's marriage certificate from either the GRO or Shropshire BMD then it will give you details of their ages, addresses, fathers' names and occupations.
GRO ordering website:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Shropshire BMD:
http://www.shropshirebmd.info/

But we may be able to find out more about them from the 1911 census etc before you have the marriage cert.

kiterunner

05-04-13, 12:47

Is it possible that Phyllis's middle name was Ivy, not Joy? I know these can easily be mistaken for each other.

kiterunner

05-04-13, 12:50

There is a marriage for Phyllis I Powell to Frederick G Bedford Oct-Dec 1946 Shrewsbury and a death for Phyllis Ivy Bedford Jul 1997 Wrekin registration district, Shropshire, date of birth 5 Jun 1919. So this looks likely to be her.

This is from ancestry and yes, you will usually get multiple records so you have to look through them all picking out the likely ones or narrow down your searches, for instance by county. Also if you click on "Go to old search" it may be easier.

kiterunner

05-04-13, 12:56

What's the address on your grandfather's birth certificate, please, and is John Powell's occupation policeman on that? We may be able to use this info to find them on the 1911 census.

ElizabethHerts

05-04-13, 12:56

The June quarter of 1909, that is! And Ellesmere is just the name of the civil registration district. Volume number is 6a and page number 1572.

Shropshire BMD website shows the marriage between John Powell and Mary A Griffiths as taking place at Great Ness, Shrewsbury in 1909. Reference number is C-S25/1/229 but online ordering is not available - it will give you an order form to print out though.

If you order a copy of John and Mary Ann's marriage certificate from either the GRO or Shropshire BMD then it will give you details of their ages, addresses, fathers' names and occupations.
GRO ordering website:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Shropshire BMD:
http://www.shropshirebmd.info/

But we may be able to find out more about them from the 1911 census etc before you have the marriage cert.

Sorry for the omission - I didn't want to copy and paste and I was also cooking lunch!

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 12:56

The 1911 census gets me confused and frustrated ;)

I think my best find so far is a John Powell born about 1886 living in Alveley, Shropshire - a Police Constable, married but wife not living at that address. Married column says 'under one year' though - it's not far out from a 1909 marriage.

Thanks so far for your help - really very kind!

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 12:59

kiterunner

05-04-13, 13:01

I'm at work at the moment myself, so I don't have my records in front of me - will check them this evening. I really should get these bits scanned!

Phyllis Joy is recorded as that name written in on the marriage certificate - so I'm assuming that's unlikely to be wrong? Could the registrar have gotten it wrong?

If it is her actual signature then it should be right, but if it has been copied out then yes, it could be wrong. I have definitely seen someone mention that they have seen Ivy mistranscribed as Joy before, or maybe it was the other way round.

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 13:02

My recollection is that it's the registrar's writing. I'd not thought of it being wrong, but that does seem entirely plausible!

kiterunner

05-04-13, 13:33

I think your best bet will be to order a copy of John and Mary Ann's marriage certificate.

I can't see Mary Ann on the 1911 census but maybe she was one of the women who refused to be listed because of the suffrage campaign? Or could possibly be in hospital listed just by her initials but I couldn't find an M A P who fits. Also when you have had the chance to look at your grandfather's birth certificate, give us the address etc from it in case it helps.

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 13:39

Thanks Kiterunner & ElizabethHerts :)

I've gone ahead and ordered that marriage certificate as it definitely seems to be highly likely. I've also ordered Phyllis I Powell's birth certificate - it's worth a punt I think!

I suppose it's quite difficult to be 100% certain when you have ancestors with very commonplace names?

kiterunner

05-04-13, 13:48

I suppose it's quite difficult to be 100% certain when you have ancestors with very commonplace names?

It does make it more difficult, yes.

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 14:06

On the plus side, my commonplace name make me very hard to stalk on facebook and google ;-)

Merry

05-04-13, 15:32

I should think the policeman you found is very likely to be the right one as this seems to be his wife:

1911 - 4 Nesscliffe, Shrewsbury, Shropshire

Ann Griffiths, head, widow, 68, Private Means, b Shropshire Kinnerley
Mary Powell, dau, married one year, one child born, one child living, none dec'd, b Shropshire Kinnerley
Elsie Mary Powell, granddaughter, 7mths, b Shropshire Bridgnorth
Annie Roderick, boarder, 24, single, Assistant Teacher, b Shropshire Little Ness

kiterunner

05-04-13, 15:56

Ooh, well done, Merry! Mary's age is 35 on that census, so she would have been outside the age range I was looking for. (John Powell being 25 at the time)

Merry

05-04-13, 16:00

Yes, I searched with an age range for Mary Ann to begin with and didn't find her. I then tried using the "official" 1911 site (http://www.1911census.co.uk/) where you can search the number of years married and got lucky!

kiterunner

05-04-13, 16:02

This looks like Mary Ann in 1901:
Pentre, Kinnerley, Shropshire
Elizth Smith H of F Widow 88 living on her means Shropshire Kinnerley
Edmund Smith Son S 52 Farm Labourer Do Do
Harriet Smith Granddaughter S 39 Dressmaker Do Do
Sarah Smith Daughter S 55 Domestic Servant Do Do
Mary Griffiths Granddaughter S 25 Do Do

So if you thought Powell and Griffiths were common names and so hard to research, you have probably got Smiths to come now!

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 16:07

That's a fantastic find - and it does all seem to fit into place. I suppose the marriage record of John and Mary will give some more information to back up this possibility...

It's really exciting to find that my Grandfather might have had siblings, as I'm the only Powell left in my family that I know of.

Merry

05-04-13, 16:08

lolol!!

I didn't see that 1901 census, but had seen Mary Ann with parents Richard and Ann on earlier censuses, which led me to this marriage, which now seems very likely:

Marriages Sep 1866
GRIFFITHS Richard Oswestry 6a 1164 Scan available - click to view
SMITH Ann Oswestry 6a 1164

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 16:08

I wonder why Mary was living 12 miles from John though, with a newborn baby to look after? Bit of a mystery! :-D

kiterunner

05-04-13, 16:12

Just because she was there on census night doesn't mean she was living there - could just have been visiting her mum for a couple of days.

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 16:16

Aha! :D

Of course the 1921 census would make like a lot easier for researching my Grandfather's generation - only 8 years to wait ;-)

Uncle John

05-04-13, 18:55

Of course the 1921 census would make like a lot easier for researching my Grandfather's generation - only 8 years to wait ;-)

No such luck. The legislation governing the 1921 census onwards means that it will never be released.

kiterunner

05-04-13, 19:12

Where did you hear that, UJ? I thought it would be released after 100 years?

Edit - says here it will be released in 2022:
http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm

maggie_4_7

05-04-13, 19:38

Where did you hear that, UJ? I thought it would be released after 100 years?

Edit - says here it will be released in 2022:
http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm

oooh its only 9 years I might still be alive :D

thecatwithnotail

05-04-13, 22:56

Hey again.

Right, the birth certificate reveals very little on address. 1915, John Powell father, Police Constable living in Shawbury - no further detials of address.

Now - on the marriage certificate, Phyllis Joy - entirely my misreading of the registrar's handwriting, and a huge thank you for setting me straight. It's absolutely recorded as Phyllis Ivy, but the capital I is very cursive, and the v is a bit looped. I looked at it again this evening and suddenly it was perfectly clear that it says Ivy.

Nell

06-04-13, 10:06

Old handwriting is always clearer when you know what it's meant to say!!!

kiterunner

06-04-13, 10:18

Well, Shawbury narrows it down a lot but of course he could well have moved from Longden to Shawbury between 1911 and 1915.

1913 Kelly's Directory of Shropshire lists "Police Station, John Powell, constable" at Shawbury. Image number 224 on Historical Directories website, this link may take you to it:
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/pageviewer.asp?fn=00005ahk.tif&dn=LUL2017tif&zoom=s

So they were living in Shawbury in 1913. I can't see a Police Constable listed at Longden in this directory (image no 148).

The only Police Constable I can find in Shawbury on the 1911 census is a Robert Brown, and his postal address is Police Station, so it looks likely that the Powells moved to Shawbury between 1911 and 1913, or 1912 as the 1913 Kelly's was probably printed in 1912. So I reckon you have found the right John Powell in 1911.

ElizabethHerts

06-04-13, 10:32

I've looked at the 1911 census for John Powell, and although he says he is married he says he has no children!

He looks pretty certain to be the right chap, but it would be nice if he acknowledged the child.

kiterunner

06-04-13, 10:38

The marriage certificate will give John's age, so we will have a better idea of whether it is the right person on the census then.

ElizabethHerts

06-04-13, 10:49

This could be John with his family in 1901:

1901 Census
POWELL, John
BRIDGNORTH, Shropshire
RG13 piece 2520 folio 28 page 6
Rowsley, Alveley
POWELL, William Head Married M 41 Carter On Farm Alveley, Shropshire
POWELL, Martha Wife Married F 39 Arley, Warwickshire
DEE, George Powell Son Single M 19 Stone Quarry Horse Driver Alveley, Shropshire
POWELL, John Son M 15 Farm Labourer Alveley, Shropshire
POWELL, William Son M 12 Alveley, Shropshire
POWELL, James Son M 9 Alveley, Shropshire
POWELL, Charles A Son M 6 Alveley, Shropshire
POWELL, Emily S Daughter F 4 Alveley, Shropshire
POWELL, Bertha Daughter F 2 Alveley, Shropshire

However, we shall have to wait for the certificate before jumping to conclusions!

thecatwithnotail

13-04-13, 11:08

Hi all - update on where I've gotten to, as certificates arrived today and I'd made a few negative discoveries in the last week or two.

Phyllis Ivy is my great-aunt. That's now confirmed by her birth certificate. I made a connection with someone on Ancestry who had done a little investigation on Phyllis, but was just a friend of her adopted daughter. I'm waiting to hear back from her, but I don't think there's much chance of Phyllis' remaining family wanting to get in touch as the adopted daughter recently died. But still, I'm really happy to get this far.

The marriage between John Powell and Mary Ann Griffiths that was uncovered - June 1909 - I'm now not sure if it is my great-grandmother and great-grandfather. I carried on looking around on this front, but realised that I had the 1911 census for the man I think is my John Powell, and he was still living at home. Furthermore, this John Powell's father is Charles, and the 1909 marriage has father William. The other John Powell is the one from the post above in the 1909 census, from a much bigger family.

The big issue is that June 1909 marriage John Powell is a Police constable. So everything seems to point to this being the right couple - although John Powell and Mary Ann Griffiths are very common names in the area.

I have found a second John Powell marrying Griffiths in 1912 in St Asaph, Denbighshire. It's much further out from Shropshire, but I think I'm right in supposing that the wedding would take place traditionally at the woman's family home? This would be consistent with the 1911 census showing John Powell still at home.

I need to backtrack over the work I did, and try to pick apart which John Powell is my great-grandfather. It might be that this marriage certificate is of my great-grandparents, in which case lots of the work I've done on the alternative John Powell is invalid.

kiterunner

13-04-13, 11:12

Can you post up all the details from the John Powell / Mary Ann Griffiths marriage certificate, please?

kiterunner

13-04-13, 11:14

I have found a second John Powell marrying Griffiths in 1912 in St Asaph, Denbighshire. It's much further out from Shropshire, but I think I'm right in supposing that the wedding would take place traditionally at the woman's family home? This would be consistent with the 1911 census showing John Powell still at home.

Yes, weddings traditionally took place at the bride's local church or register office, but of course not always.

thecatwithnotail

13-04-13, 12:10

thecatwithnotail

13-04-13, 12:12

The more I mull it over, my John Powell son of Charles Powell must be wrong. Given the occupation and all the other details, I can't see how this couldn't be my great-grandparents. It's too unlikely to have another John Powell Police constable marrying a Mary Ann Griffiths.

kiterunner

13-04-13, 12:26

1909 Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church in the parish of Great Ness in the County of Salop

25th June 1909
John Powell age 23 Bachelor Police Constable Bridgnorth - Father William Powell Labourer
Mary Ann griffiths 33 Spinster - Lessecliffe(?) - Father Richard Griffiths Deceased

in the presence of Walter R Smith, Amelia Griffiths, Emily Edwards

I think Lessecliffe will be Nessecliffe.

It fits with the Mary that Merry found on the 1911 census, and John's age is right for that married John who is a police constable without a wife on the 1911 census.

kiterunner

13-04-13, 12:54

Remember that on the 1911 census Mary Powell has a daughter Elsie Mary age 7 months, born Bridgnorth?

There is a marriage between an Elsie M Powell and a William A Cross Oct-Dec 1937 Shrewsbury, vol 6a, p 1687, and there is a death of an Elsie Mary Cross Nov 1993 Shrewsbury, date of birth 30 Aug 1910. Elsie Mary Powell's birth registration is Jul-Sep 1910 so this would fit.

You could order a copy of Elsie's marriage certificate and see if your grandfather and / or Phyllis is a witness, and get Elsie's address, to confirm it is the same family.

thecatwithnotail

13-04-13, 13:16

Ah yes of course - I had Elsie recorded in my tree, but then removed her thinking I'd gone down the wrong route. Excellent idea!

thecatwithnotail

23-04-13, 10:20

I've received marriage certificates for Elsie Powell m William Cross and Phyllis Powell m Frederick Bedford, and everything is now starting to reinforce all the research.

All the addresses on the marriage certificates support each other. There's a reference to "Cartef, Battlefield" on both Elsie & Phyllis' certificate. Both fathers show John Powell, Police Constable (retired by Elsie's marriage in 1937). Cyril William Powell m Violet Annie Ball (my Grandmother) shows the same address and father.

I have the 1911 census appearance for Elsie, who is the eldest child (b 1910) - where she is with Mary Ann Powell at her Grandmother's house - and the 1911 census John Powell, married Police Constable living by himself - this now all seems to be pretty solid self-supporting evidence for the rest of the family.

I can now fairly definitely say that John and Mary Ann had three children, Elsie, Cyril (my Grandfather) & Phyllis. I had done a couple of generations' research back from this John & Mary Ann, and found a few interesting bits and pieces, so it's great to have this bit of research looking like it's on very firm footing to carry on from. There's even a branch (four or five generations back) who emigrated to the US - so lots of fun things to uncover there :-)

On top of all the good firm supporting evidence, I had also ordered Cyril's marriage certificate to another wife, Kathleen M Bullock, and got a big surprise there.

Cyril in 1975 was recorded as a widower. At first I thought "crikey, he's lied to Kathleen!" - but then had another think and a quick bit of searching. I don't know the exact date of my Grandmother & Grandfather's divorce - but I can assume it happened after the birth of my Father in 1943. The next marriage I have is in 1975 - so that gave a possibility of 20 years of… something.

Almost instantly I found another marriage, Cyril Powell m Angela E Phelps in 1955 in Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire. Looking back at the marriage certificate to Kathleen - the marriage was witnessed by E M Phelps & one other Phelps, and also took place in Forest of Dean.

I've then - possibly - found a death for Angela Powell in 1965, but over in Cambridgeshire. I need to look into that one further - because if it's the right person then Cyril was 40yo when he married Angela at 20yo.

So my Grandfather is turning out to be a bit of a romeo. Married three times, once, possibly to a girl half his age. So far I only know of one child though, my Dad. It'd be amazing to find out my Dad had half-siblings, but I think it's a long shot.

Thanks for all the help you've given me - it's been invaluable to get me past the dead ends I was running into!

thecatwithnotail

02-05-13, 13:29

Hmm, that didn't work. Angela was on the young side really, and the marriage certificate confirmed that it was a different Cyril Powell. So I'm still trying to find out if indeed there was a second marriage.

One thing I'm noticing is that the results on genesreunited can be a lot better than on ancestry - yesterday I found two marriages for Cyril W Powells that I can't find at all on ancestry.

What now - is it just a case of ordering marriage certificates and crossing my fingers?

Meanwhile, I think I've found a living relative and I've written to her - my first cousin once removed through Cyril's sister Elsie. Just hopefully she's still at the last address I have for her and she's happy for a relative she's never met to get in touch.

kiterunner

02-05-13, 13:35

The GRO indexes on Genes Reunited are the same transcriptions as on Findmypast, but probably easier to search on Findmypast, though of course if you have a Genes Reunited sub that includes them or credits to use up on there stick with it! You can search for free on Findmypast, though, you only have to pay to view the full transcription or image.

Also FreeBMD has transcribed a lot of the GRO indexes and has a lot of the images, and is free to use:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Have you got Cyril's death certificate?

thecatwithnotail

02-05-13, 13:44

Yep, I've got his DC, BC & marriage certificates to both my Gran & his last wife Kathleen Bulllock. The MC to Kathleen says he's a widower. So either there's another wife or he lied... His DC shows Kathleen's information, and the obituary in the local newspaper only mentioned her.

I really should scan all this in.

Here's Cyril & Kathleen's marriage certificate...
http://i.imgur.com/NoiEyJ0.jpg

kiterunner

02-05-13, 13:49

It does look likely that he had another marriage before he married Kathleen, then, given that her marital status is "previous marriage dissolved" it seems unlikely that he would feel the need to pretend to be a widower.

thecatwithnotail

02-05-13, 13:56

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. I don't know the exact date of the divorce from my Gran, but it's likely to be sometime in the late 40s. If he didn't get married to Kathleen until 1975 that's twenty years to fit something else in.

Merry

02-05-13, 16:15

If there's a chance Cyril lived with his previous wife at the same address he married from in 1975, then you could try and track down the electoral roll record for the address to see if you could pick up his previous wife's first name. Also, should you find her on the e-rolls, you might be able to work out roughly when she died, by looking through the years for the point where she is no longer listed.

thecatwithnotail

03-05-13, 06:48

Thanks Merry - is that something you have to pay for?

Merry

03-05-13, 08:41

It depends!

In many cases the e-rolls for a given area are held at the main library closest to the district itself. If you can't go to the library yourself, then you could try emailing/phoning the library, firstly to see if they hold the records or, if they don't, who does, and secondly, if they have the records whether they would be willing to do a quick lookup. This involves checking to see which electoral ward the street is located in (often a librarian with local knowledge would know that without checking) and then look at the alphabetical list of streets in the ward for the specific address. To do this for one date wouldn't take very long at all.

I've never been charged by a library, but there's always a first time!!

thecatwithnotail

13-05-13, 09:53

Big success story :-)

On Saturday, I went over to the British Library Newspaper Reading Room (I'm very lucky living in London!) to check out obituaries for my Grandfather's two sisters. I was able to find the two of them in local newspapers and grab a few more details of immediate surviving family at their death.

Amazingly coincidentally, on the train back home I received a voicemail - from the lady I had written to who I believed was my Great Aunt's daughter - and I was absolutely right! I called her back and established that she was my father's cousin, and she had remembered meeting him when he was very young. She then filled me in on a load of additional family information, including three additional siblings of my Grandfather who were born after 1911 (so weren't recorded anywhere that I'd seen). My Dad had a lot of cousins on his father's (Cyril's) side, who had often wondered what had ever happened to him :-)

I spoke to another cousin on Sunday who had done some family research, and we're starting to compare notes and she's going to be sending me copies of photos of my Grandfather and Great-grandparents, who both cousins had known. I even have some second cousins living in London hear me and others with the Powell surname, so it's all been hugely successful.

Probably the most interesting part is that there are still a number of question marks over Cyril's movements and life as he didn't really keep in contact with the rest of the family. So there will still be work to be done there.

A great big thank you to everyone who helped me. I appreciate the advice and assistance so much!