Jane Raven's father

[JohnS]

James Rutter married Jane Raven 24 May 1874 in Birkenhead, Wirral, Cheshire, St. Mary.
On copy of Parish Register Entry she gives her age as 22 and father's name as James, a Shoemaker.

1881 census James and Jane are living in Hoose (Hoylake, Wirral) with their daughter. Jane is recorded as being born Cumberland, Maryport.
RG11 piece 3573 folio 45 page 3

I can only find the one Jane Raven that would fit in the BMD Indexes.
1851 Q4 25 110 Cockermouth

1861 I think I have her living at home with parents and siblings
RG09 Piece 3941 Folio 60 Page 18
RG09 Piece 3941 Folio 60 Page 19

Only problem is that on 1861 census the father is Joseph and not James as per marriage entry.

Have I missed something and am looking at wrong family in 1861?

[Merry]

I assume you are sure you have the right marriage entry?

[Shona]

Had a quick look at the census records for 1851, 1861 and 1871. In each of these censuses, Joseph Raven, shoemaker, is with his wife Nancy. Jane appears on the 1861 census. So there is consistency there. Joseph and Nancy also had a son named James. Couldn't find any shoemakers in the area named James.

I did see an Elizabeth Raven in 1861, but her husband was a mariner. Elizabeth's children are named Margaret, 16, Robert, 14, Joseph, 12, James, 10, John, 3, and Jackson, 10 months. So it may be her husband is related to your Ravens, given the children's names.

I also noticed a James Raven, b c1844 in Flimby, Cumberland, living in Birkenhead in 1871.

I'll have a look at the trade directories to see if that helps.

Perhaps an error was made on the parish register entry - Jane's husband was named James and her father's name began with J.

[kiterunner]

John, when you say "copy of parish register entry", do you mean it is a photocopy or printout of the actual parish register entry, or is it a transcription? I'm just wondering whether Jos could have been misread as Jas and expanded to James by the transcriber.

[kiterunner]

Never mind, I've found the image on FMP now and it does say James. Could still be a mistake though.

[Shona]

Hmm - Joseph and Nancy Raven have a two-year-old son in 1861 named Jackson. Elizabeth, the mariner's wife, had a 10-month-old son in 1871 named Jackson. Joseph and Nancy have sons named James and Joseph. Elizabeth also has sons named James and Joseph.

[JohnS]

I also noticed a James Raven, b c1844 in Flimby, Cumberland, living in Birkenhead in 1871.

That's interesting because the marriage was in Birkenhead three years later.
Did that James have a daughter Jane living with him in 1871 and was he a shoemaker?
I don't have subs at the moment so I can't view census images.

[Merry]

James and Jane Rutter had children called Joseph and Nancy.

[kiterunner]

That's interesting because the marriage was in Birkenhead three years later.
Did that James have a daughter Jane living with him in 1871 and was he a shoemaker?
I don't have subs at the moment so I can't view census images.

He would be too young to be Jane's father, John, but possibly her brother? His occupation is laborer and he has a wife Margaret 27 born Maryport and children Sarah J 5, James 2 and Mary 3 months.

[Merry]

That's interesting because the marriage was in Birkenhead three years later.
Did that James have a daughter Jane living with him in 1871 and was he a shoemaker?
I don't have subs at the moment so I can't view census images.

That James is the brother of Jane b 1852ish.

[JohnS]

He would be too young to be Jane's father, John, but possibly her brother?

Yeah. Realised that straight away but you were too quick kiterunner.
And I had hoped that 2013 was going to be the year I got my senses back!

At the time of marriage Jane gave her address as 16 Abbot Street (Birkenhead). Does it give an address for James?

[JohnS]

James and Jane Rutter had children called Joseph and Nancy.

Dorothy, Joseph, William and Nancy.

I am OK with info from their marriage onwards. I was just trying to trace Jane back.

[Shona]

Here's the trail...


1851 Front Row. Flimby
Joseph Raven, 32, shoemaker, journeyman, b Maryport
Nancy, wife, 30, b Ellenborough
James, son, 7, scholar, b Flimby
Betsy, dau, 5, scholar, b Flimby
Sarah Ann, dau, 3, b Flimby
William, son, 1, b Flimby

1861 Crosscanonby
James Raven, 43, shoemaker, b Maryport
Nancy, wife, 41, b Ellenborough
James, son, 17, coal miner, b Flimby
Sarah Ann, dau, 13, scholar, b Flimby
William, son, 11, scholar, b Flimby
Jane, dau, 9, scholar, b Flimby
Mary, dau, 7, scholar, b Martport
Joseph, son, 4, b Maryport
Jackson, son, 2, b Maryport

1871 Crosscanonby
Joseph Raven, 53, shoemaker, b Maryport
Nancy, wife, 51, b Maryport
William, son, 21, shoemaker, b Maryport
Margrat, dau, 9 scholar, b Maryport
Susannah, dau, 5, scholar, b Maryport

1871 Birkenhead
James Raven, labourer, b Flimby
Margaret, wife, b Maryport
Sarah, dau, 5, b Birkenhead
James J, son, 2, b Birkenhead
Mary dau, 3, b Birkenhead

James and Nancy with daughter Magaret plus two boarders are still around in 1881.

How does the Elizabeth - wife of the mariner - with similarly named children fit in?

[JohnS]

1861 Crosscanonby
James Raven, 43, shoemaker, b Maryport


So this one says James, where the others say Joseph?

Jane gave her father's name as James.

[Shona]

So this one says James, where the others say Joseph?

Jane gave her father's name as James.

Ooops *blushes* - that's an error. It should be Joseph. Sorry to raise false hopes. OH has set my keyboard to German and the keys are in the wrong platz.

[Merry]

Dorothy, Joseph, William and Nancy.



I realise they had others - I was just pointing out they named two after what would seem to be Jane's parents! Nancy isn't that common a name at that date.

[Shona]

I was curious about Elizabeth Raven who lived in Crosscanonby at the same time as Joseph and Nancy.

Elizabeth Collister, b Denbighshire, married a James Raven in Liverpool in 1843. The couple had the following children - Margaret Alice (b Liverpool, 1845), Robert (b Maryport, 1848), Joseph (b Maryport, c1849), James J (b Maryport, 1851), John Jordan, (b Maryport, 1858) and Jackson (b Maryport, 1860).

James's merchant navy records give his place and date of birth as Maryport, 21 May 1815. He was involved in foreign trade.

This James looks like shoemaker Joseph's brother.

[JohnS]

I realise they had others - I was just pointing out they named two after what would seem to be Jane's parents! Nancy isn't that common a name at that date.

Yes, apologies Merry if you thought I hadn't assumed that. I was listing them purely to demonstrate the fact that I had sufficient info from their marriage onwards.

I was curious about Elizabeth Raven who lived in Crosscanonby at the same time as Joseph and Nancy.

Elizabeth Collister, b Denbighshire, married a James Raven in Liverpool in 1843. The couple had the following children - Margaret Alice (b Liverpool, 1845), Robert (b Maryport, 1848), Joseph (b Maryport, c1849), James J (b Maryport, 1851), John Jordan, (b Maryport, 1858) and Jackson (b Maryport, 1860).

James's merchant navy records give his place and date of birth as Maryport, 21 May 1815. He was involved in foreign trade.

This James looks like shoemaker Joseph's brother.

Yes, I agree Shona.

The problem still remains that I cannot find Jane in 1871 and also I cannot say with certainty whether her father was James (as shown on Parish Marriage Entry) or Joseph.

[Shona]

Haven't found her yet in 1871. Will keep looking.