Is this a lead? Help with Irish research needed (again!) [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

Merry

22-12-12, 08:23

BK6 updated from this thread

Many of you will know plenty (too much?) about OH's grandfather, John Claud Hamilton already and there are plenty of threads on here about him.

The briefest of summaries is that according to the man himself he was b in Cork 25th April 1895/6 to a Scottish father. He had two sisters, Kathleen and Aileen. He left home during WW1 and joined the British Army. He disowned his family in Cork (and they disowned him too!) when he left. He met OH's grandmother in 1918 and married her in 1920. They lived in Southampton. After WW1 he was in the Merchant Navy for the rest of his life first as a ship's fireman and then as a steward. His marriage broke down before WW2 and when not at sea he then lived in seamen's mission accommodation. He died at the West London Hospital in Hammersmith in 1962 (no fixed abode).

We have never found him in birth records or on the 1901/11 Irish censuses and so came to the conclusion he changed his name when he came to England. We have a letter written from Cork in 1919 where he states he cannot make up with his parents and will never visit Cork again (which he didn't). Sady there is no address on that letter, which brings me to this possible chink in the wall........

Yesterday I was looking at the FMP newspaper records and found these two snippets:

Western Daily Press 31st Aug 1921

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m13/merry_monty_montgomery/Shauns%20Family%20History%20Photos/WesternDailyPress31stAug1921.jpg

Western Daily Press 7th Sept 1921

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m13/merry_monty_montgomery/Shauns%20Family%20History%20Photos/WesternDailyPress7thSept1921.jpg

Everything in there suggests this could be him. Why would he give a Cork address though, when he hadn't been there for two years? And more importantly, what can I find from that address? If this was England I wold go straight for the electoral rolls, but I'm not sure they have survived for Cork.

TBH I'm not thinking straight as we have been waiting several decades for some new info to come along and this is the first time something has (might have)!!

JBee

22-12-12, 08:33

Aren't the 1901 and 1911 Irish census's online? Sorry can't find the link at the minute.

If the family name is the same you could possibly find them at the same address.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

You can search by road

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 08:44

Merry, it certainly looks like your man.

I've been looking at the censuses again but haven't been able to find anything so far. I wonder if they used a different surname?

Merry

22-12-12, 08:46

The address doesn't appear (Magazine Road only has about half a dozen houses on either census). Sadly searching by name has got us know where which is why we decided he had probably changed hs name.

Merry

22-12-12, 08:48

Pity it sounds like him with that content, Elizabeth! OH was not surprised though. I can't imagine someone as lovely as OH's nan being mixed up with anyone who had a criminal record :eek::eek::eek: She was a lovely lady.....she died in 1996 aged 96.

kiterunner

22-12-12, 08:50

Using the Advanced Search on the Irish censuses to search by address, there only seem to be a very few houses on Magazine Road, no numbers anywhere near 98.
(Edit - I see you already found that out, Merry.)

JBee

22-12-12, 08:52

Have a look at this - have found a household in 1901 with a John around right age, Aileen and Kathleen - might be coincidence!!!!!

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Clonakilty_Urban/Chapel_Street_New/1095899/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=Crowley&firstname=Aileen&county=Cork&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search

I looked for an Aileen and then a Kathleen with the same surname - though it looks like this Aileen isn't at the same address.

kiterunner

22-12-12, 08:53

There are various Cork directories including 1921 on this site, but I haven't managed to work out whether 1921 includes a street directory yet:
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/streetandtradedirectories/1921guyscitycountyalmanacanddirectory/

kiterunner

22-12-12, 08:54

Merry

22-12-12, 08:56

We have the Hamilton entries from a 1919 street directory, but those were from the days when we still thought that was his birth name!

Julie.....just going to try your link now!

kiterunner

22-12-12, 08:58

Okay, Magazine Road is on page 495 of that 1921 directory and it only seems to have a few house numbers, but then there are some Villas with names.

Merry

22-12-12, 08:59

lol Kate!! Where are you looking, please....

kiterunner

22-12-12, 09:01

And there is an alphabetical section with Hamiltons on page 553, but none at Magazine Road.

kiterunner

22-12-12, 09:03

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 09:07

I went down the coastguard route and got rather excited when I saw a Hamilton born in Co. Cork, but the children's names were wrong, and then everything else seems to be. :(

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Coastguards/H-I.html
Hamilton, John IRL 1848 Cork 1881 Lyme Regis DOR Wife: Margaret, 1857, Co Cork, IRL. Children: Mary Ann & Angeline M & John, 1877 & 1878 & 1880, all Lyme.

kiterunner

22-12-12, 09:08

Google Maps reckons there is a 98 Magazine Road, Cork, nowadays. Maybe we can figure out whether it existed in 1921 under a house name or terrace.

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 09:10

Magazine Road is very long, so there must be quite a few properties.

Merry

22-12-12, 09:12

This is the link to the 1921 directory:
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/streetandtradedirectories/1921guyscitycountyalmanacanddirectory/

Then scroll down on the left to where it says pages 494 to 595.

Or were you lolling at me not being able to see Aileen?

Thanks for the link.

Sorry, I was lolling at the idea his family might be in Magazine Road but hiding under one of many housenames rather than a number!

Merry

22-12-12, 09:21

There's just over 100 properties listed for Magazine Road in that directory. Just about enough!

When I looked at Google street view I couldn't find very many with house numbers of any sort, but I did see a wheelie bin with a small number and a name painted on it. I wonder if that was part of one of the villa terraces?

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 09:23

I was getting hopeful with this lot, but John junior is too old. :(

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__5_Urban__part_of_/Cotter_Street/397762/

Merry

22-12-12, 09:26

From googling, O'Connell's pharmacy is 67 Magazine Road. This is what I see first on the street view.

JBee

22-12-12, 09:29

If it's a long road - it could well be that the road has been changed over the years.

Friend of mine now finds the road she was born in has now changed and the old road now bypasses her home which is now on a completely different road. The house hasn't moved nor the road - it's just changed it's name.

Merry

22-12-12, 09:33

As I jump along the road on street view I see the caption at the top changed from Magazine Road to names that appear in the 1921 street directory - I'm currently looking at Horgan's Buildings.

Merry

22-12-12, 09:39

I'm so glad I'm not a postman!

Phoenix

22-12-12, 09:44

I'm so glad I'm not a postman!

Lol! It seems to have whizzed up to 110 without breaking stride, and the numbering seems to be consecutive, not evens.

Phoenix

22-12-12, 09:49

You don't suppose, given his avowed intention never to return to Cork made in 1919 (two years earlier!) than he maliciously named an address where people might be discomforted?

JBee

22-12-12, 09:49

In 1901 census there's an Aileen Murphy with sister Kathleen and a Victor? of the right age?????????????????????

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Cloyne/River_Street/1133203/

or this one a Kathleen, Aileen and James Crowley

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Queenstown_Urban/Thomas_Street/1139451/

or this Kathleen Aileen & Michael Discoll

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Cork_Urban_No__4/Rathmore_Buildings/1104725/

With John Fortune and Aileen without Kathleen
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilfaughnabeg/Rushanes/1157276/

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 09:51

kiterunner

22-12-12, 09:51

You could try asking on here:
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/localities.britisles.ireland.crk.general/mb.ashx

or here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,56.0.html
(warning - Rootschat has had a makeover and you may have to log in again!)

kiterunner

22-12-12, 09:58

JBee

22-12-12, 09:58

Married Quarters

John and Aileen Burke

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/North_East_Ward/No__5_Block_Married_Quarters/1102758/

A John & Aileen Thompson (but ages wrong way around??)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Cork_Urban_No__7/Great_Georges_Street_West/1112599/

John and Aileen OLeary
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Ardfield/Mountain_Common/1096905/

kiterunner

22-12-12, 10:01

Ah, in the 1921 directory it says "Horgan's Buildings 126 Corporation dwellings" but doesn't give the names of the residents!

JBee

22-12-12, 10:05

This one has Aileen, Kathleen and a Timothy John Whyte?????

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Castlemartyr/Farrantrenchard/1132264/

Have been through all the Aileen's in 1901 census.

Merry

22-12-12, 10:10

Looking at the 1945 Cork directory (on the same site as that 1921 one), Magazine Road starts on page 519 and going on to page 520, Horgan's Buildings has numbers going from 1-126, so it could be he meant 98 Horgan's Buildings, Magazine Road?

Ah, in the 1921 directory it says "Horgan's Buildings 126 Corporation dwellings" but doesn't give the names of the residents!

The above is what I just realised!

I bet that is right though....98 Horgan's Buildings!

I haven't looked at everyone elses links in the last few posts yet......

Merry

22-12-12, 10:14

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the Aileen and Kathleen sisters. Other snippets are: father was Scottish and had previously been harbour master at Dundee (much useless research done on this in the 1990s). Grandmother was Norwegian.

One sister did exist (name unknown) as OH's grandmother met her once in London before the sister emigrated to Canada :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Merry

22-12-12, 10:26

There are just a few people listed at Horgans Buildings in 1911.

Shona

22-12-12, 10:27

Found this for the 1911 census in Ireland.

Casheview Terrace
Claud Arthur William Hamilton, 49, Capt Royal Navy, born England
Isabel Hamilton, wife, 30, born England
Married 7 yrs, no children

This looks like a second marriage to me.

In Scotland in 1901, there is this record.

Kilwinning Ayrshire
Sarah McCulloch, head, housewife, born Ireland
Agnes McCulloch, daughter, born Ayrshire
Sarah Hamilton, daughter, born Ayrshire
Claude Hamilton, grandson, 3, born Glasgow
John Hamilton, grandson, 1, born Kilwinning

Co-incidence or connected?

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 10:36

Merry

22-12-12, 10:36

Don't even go there, Shona :D. I remember finding the first family you mention and managing to discount them plus the first wife and any children she had. However, i don't remember seeing the other family with the grandson. I don't have that research to hand now, but I thought the first wife had a Staffordshire connection (???) and that they either had a child I could prove wasn't JCH or they had a child who died young (can't remember at the moment). I thought the first wife's death was before 1901???

I've not seen those other people before though.

JCH never used the name Claud himself (too toff-ish for the merchant navy?), this only appears in records where the info was given by his wife or daughter.

JCH was supposed to be the black sheep of a middle class family so I wonder what happened if his family were at Horgan's buildings? Unless that was the address of someone else he knew. *sigh*

Merry

22-12-12, 10:38

I expect you have seen this, Merry:

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/newspapers/view/BL/0000329/19290129/064/0006?&firstName=%22John%20Hamilton%22&lastName=&county=ALL&keywords=Cork&fromYear=1900&toYear=1950&includeVariants=true&pageNumber=1&_zga_s=1

I did see that yesterday, Elizabeth, but at the same time as the police court thing and so I have not read the original version on the page with the full details. They sound rather too grand!

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 11:09

Merry, do you have his Army records for WWI?

Merry

22-12-12, 11:11

I've found 98 Horgan's Buildings on Google street view. These properties are situated in a series of narrow streets just to the north of Magazine Road. Number 98 appears straight away on the street view. It's single story terraced. One door and one window downstairs and now there's a single velux widow in the roof too. I'm wondering if they are also back to back? Very small.

Merry

22-12-12, 11:16

Merry, do you have his Army records for WWI?

They haven't survived, Elizabeth. We know his army number from all the letters he wrote to his wife-to-be (mostly apologising for drunkenness and saying he will do better next time). All we have is his medal card plus the entry for the silver war badge that say his medals were issued and then withdrawn once they found he never served abroad during WW1, spending the whole time in various army camps around England when he wasn't in hospital (he suffered a good deal with bronchitis throughout his life and it killed him eventually).

I wonder if any criminal record could have survived?

Merry

22-12-12, 11:24

1901:

Residents of a house 98 in Horgan's Buildings (Bishopstown, Cork)

Show all information

Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion
O Halloren Mary 65 Female Head of Family Roman Catholic
O Halloren Norah 29 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
O Halloren Anne 22 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Keone Mary 10 Female Grand Daughter Roman Catholic

So it was built by then.

JayG

22-12-12, 11:32

Merry

22-12-12, 11:38

Are the houses at Bishopstown the right ones though?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Bishopstown/Horgan_s_Buildings/

Bishopstown seems to be slightly south west of the Horgan's buildings on a current street map.

Merry

22-12-12, 11:40

Reading the second newspaper clip if he had a long list of previous convictions and was well known in Southampton then it looks like there will be a lot more newspaper references to find and maybe court/criminal records.

Good luck Merry!

lol Thanks! I can't see there are any Hampshire online papers for the 1920s. Might have to go to Southampton. At least it's not too far from here. :)

JayG

22-12-12, 11:43

Wonder if the Cork newspapers will have run the story and have bit more information about a local lad?

Merry

22-12-12, 11:44

Goodness knows! Are there any online Irish papers?

Merry

22-12-12, 11:46

In Scotland in 1901, there is this record.

Kilwinning Ayrshire
Sarah McCulloch, head, housewife, born Ireland
Agnes McCulloch, daughter, born Ayrshire
Sarah Hamilton, daughter, born Ayrshire
Claude Hamilton, grandson, 3, born Glasgow
John Hamilton, grandson, 1, born Kilwinning

I think Sarah McCulloch married a John Hamilton in 1897. That's as far as I've got......

JayG

22-12-12, 11:49

The Southern Star is online but I can't seem to search on my ipad.

http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/Default/Scripting/SearchHome.Asp?Skin=SST&enter=true&AppName=2&AW=12...

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 11:54

Do you have to register to see pages?

http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/index.php?expired=1

Merry

22-12-12, 11:56

I think I might have to get out of bed soon!! lololol

Have been waiting for son to tell me when he is ready to go Christmas shopping, but it looks like more bullying is required.

I'll be back to this later. Thanks for all your help so far :)

Shona

22-12-12, 12:35

Discussed this with the OH (Irish with Cork links), who has thrown these nuggets into the discussion. A Cork person calling someone Scottish doesn't mean they are Scottish. It can be used in a derogatory way to describe someone who is Presbyterian. Or it can mean someone who has Scottish planter roots.

OH thinks the Irish War of Indepence and Civil War could be linked with the family's personal troubles.

Here's a wee bit from Wiki on Cork.

In the 19th century, Cork was a centre for the Fenians and for the constitutional nationalism of the Irish Parliamentary Party, from 1910 that of the All-for-Ireland Party. The county was a hotbed of guerrilla activity during the Irish War of Independence (1919–1921). Three Cork Brigades of the Irish Republican Army operated in the county and another in the city. Prominent actions included the Kilmichael Ambush in November 1920 and the Crossbarry Ambush in March 1921. The activity of IRA flying columns, such as the one under Tom Barry in west Cork, was popularised in the Ken Loach film The Wind That Shakes The Barley. On December 11, 1920 Cork City centre was gutted by fires started by the Black and Tans in reprisal for IRA attacks. Over 300 buildings were destroyed.

During the Irish Civil War (1922–23), most of the IRA units in Cork sided against the Anglo-Irish Treaty. From July to August 1922 they held the city and county as part of the so-called Munster Republic. However, Cork was taken by troops of the Irish Free State in August 1922 in the Irish Free State offensive, that included both overland and seaborne attacks. For the remainder of the war, the county saw sporadic guerrilla fighting until the Anti-Treaty side called a ceasefire and dumped their arms in May 1923.

The OH's great-grandfather from Tipperary served in the Army. In the 1920s, his sons backed the republican cause - in Cork - which was at total odds with their father. The rift was deep and never healed.

Merry

22-12-12, 13:23

Just nipping in before going out. Re the Scottish thing - what he actually said was (in a 1919 letter to his English protestant girlfriend) that he had been foolish to imagine it would be possible to change the mind of a hard-headed Scotchman (sic), but we don't really know what he had gone back to try and reconcile about.

There is no father's name on his 1920 marriage cert.

When he died his daughter refused to pay for his burial so donated his body to medical science. It went to Oxford Uni. A year or two back we discovered he was buried at South London Crematorium & Streatham Park Cemetery, Streatham Vale, Rowan Rd, London SW16 in the RC section. This was nearly a year after he died. We don't know how they decided on the RC bit. We had always vaguely assumed he was Catholic by birth, but only because he was Irish! They must have got the info from somewhere I suppose, but if it came from his daughter she might easily have lied if she thought it would have caused him upset had he still been alive. She absolutely hated him.

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 13:30

As her daughter hated him so, it is probably related to his treatment of her mother and her. Children can be very protective of a parent who has been ill-treated.

Merry

22-12-12, 15:50

Yes, I think the main problem was when he came home from sea he would collect his money and then go straight to the pub before going home. He also used to pawn the furniture at home to get drinking money and then waltz off back to sea, leaving them again for a few months. Oh's nan fell for him because he knew a lot about literature (she didn't) and was supposedly well educated (another hint at the middle class/black sheep scenario). I guess he'd kissed the Blarney Stone!

OH does remember him coming to their house in the late 50s a couple of times, by which time JCH was a washed up old man with a very noticeable southern Irish accent who gave OH and his brother half a crown each!

Shona

22-12-12, 17:59

For a man who gives a lot of clues - a date and place of birth, two sisters named Aileen and Kathleen, a Scottish father who was a harbour master in Dundee and a Norwegian gran - JCH is impossible to find!

Merry

22-12-12, 18:39

I refuse to hear impossible! lol

Shona, just in case you see him around......this is who you are looking for :D:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m13/merry_monty_montgomery/Shauns%20Family%20History%20Photos/JohnHamilton.jpg

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 19:08

You can search on FMP by just country of birth, so I have tried Norway.
Haven't found anything yet, though.:(

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 19:10

1881 Scotland Four hits for people born in Norway living in Dundee, but only one woman.

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 19:14

Scotland's People - I searched for Catholic marriages for Hamilton in Dundee after 1855. Three hits, but I haven't any credits to view them.

ElizabethHerts

22-12-12, 19:16

1855 - 1900 8 hits for non-Catholic marriages for Hamilton in Dundee district.

Shona

22-12-12, 19:36

I had a look for female Norwegians in Scotland, too. But....my Scittish mum says: 'We called all of them Norwegian, including the Danes, people from Iceland and Faero. Came for the fishing and the girls gutted the herrings.'

Merry

22-12-12, 20:11

We only assume the Norwegian grandmother was the mother of JCH's father - she could have been his mother's mother!! We don't know a thing about his mother. My M-i-L used to say she was Irish rather than a Scot, but i think she actually had no idea.

I keep going back to the story where JCH asked his daughter if she liked being called Hamilton or if she would have prefered a different surname? "What about O'" (something)? he said........Pity no one has ever remembered O'What??? lol

Shona

22-12-12, 20:38

Could've been Norwegian Irish!

Merry

22-12-12, 21:38

Don't! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: lol

Olde Crone

22-12-12, 21:58

*OC puffs up from a long way behind*

Completely useless but.....

Post 16# has an Angeline... Ang - Aileen?

OC

Shona

22-12-12, 22:10

How's the surf board, OC?

Shona

23-12-12, 15:47

Went through the Cork Street Directories for mentions of Hamilton from 1891.

1891
Hamilton, Dunne & Co, 8 Wintrop St
" George, Blackrock Road
" - 10 King's Terrace
" - 68 St Kevin's Square
" II 2 Tuckey Street
" JP QC 2 Farleigh Place
" Miss M 2 Boomfield Terrace
" William 7 Rockboro Road

1907
Hamilton, Geo, 3 Clifton Terrace
" Miss A K, 2 Bloomfield Ter

1913
Hamilton & McGregor, 8 Maylor Street
Hamilton, George, 3 Clifton Terrace
" Miss A K, 2 Bloomfield Terrace
" Mrs, 47 Douglas Street

1921
Hamilton, Geo, 3 Clifton Terrace
" Miss A K, 2 Bloomfield Terrace
" S K, 9 Maylor Street
" S K, Summerville, Summerhill

1945
Hamilton D, 57 Gurranbraher Avenue
Hamilton, Dr W D, 21 Patrick's Hill
Hamilton, Mrs H, 75 Waterhouse Road
Hamilton, Miss, 4 Bridge Street
Hamilton, S K, 9A Academy Street

Merry

23-12-12, 19:23

Thanks Shona, I did have the middle three of those (from 15 years ago!) and have managed to trace the majority on the census and/or other places, all to no avail. We have also written to all the places called Queen's college in Ireland as he was supposed to have been educated at one of these establishments before he turned into the black sheep - no joy with that either, which is yet another reason we think he may have changed his name. Certainly if he didn't change it then he probably wasn't from Cork City at all - we have several birth certs for people who we thought might turn out to be him, but one way or another we have eliminated them all. :o

What stil niggles me is that if he was the son of a Scot (though I hear what you say about that possibly being a red herring) and he hated his father so much - if he did change his name why did he choose a Scottish name? Perhaps he didn't change his name then??? And off I go round the circuit again......

Shona

23-12-12, 19:57

I wondered if it was his mum's maiden name, so had a go with female Hamiltons marrying in Cork. Nothing leapt out.

It all feels so very familiar. My OH's Irish lot are a pesky bunch. John Ryan (OH's great-grandfather) from Tipperary joined the army, fell out with family, never went back to Tipperary and we haven't got a clue who his parents were.

Then there is the mysterious Mr Keith - another great-grandfather - who may be John, Edward, Charles Edward or William. But he doesn't appear to exist. We have a story that he came from Scotland and married a Catholic lass. Nice middle class family. Black sheep, etc. Warnings not to go digging.

We seem to be chasing very similar ghosts!