Thomas Druce FFMFF

[Sunny Kate]

Name - "official" name and what they were known as:
Thomas Charles Druce
Date and place of birth:
Possibly Witney, Oxfordshire ( as per 1851 census), birth about 1796
Names of parents
Unknown – possibly illegitimate son of ??
Date and place of baptism - if applicable
Unknown
* About 50 years after TC Druce’s death the widow of one of his sons claimed TC was in reality the 5th Duke of Portland who lived a double life. A long series of court cases spanning about 10 years followed during which time no evidence of TC’s birth/ parents was ever discovered in spite of extensive searches by various people. In 1907 his body was exhumed and identified. The claim that TC was the Duke was proved pure fiction.
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any
16 th October, 1816 married Elizabeth Crickmer at St James, Bury St Edmunds Suffolk
30 October, 1851 married Annie May at Windsor.
Occupation(s) - if any
Draper’s assistant, Upholsterer, proprietor of the Baker Street Bazaar, 68 Baker Street.
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses
you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
Bury St Edmunds Suffolk 1816 – abt 1833 when he deserted his wife Elizabeth.
TC moved to London by 1833
1841 ‘ lodging at Lodge Road, District of Marylebone
1851- residence with Annie May – 2 Richmond Green, Richmond
1861- residence at 58 Finchley Road, St John's Wood
Date, place of death
26 December, 1864 at Holcombe House, Hendon London
Cause of death –
abscess, gangrene resulting from fistula
Date and place of burial.
Burial at Highgate Cemetery on 31 December, 1864
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
Probate granted 10 February 1865.
Memorial inscription - if any N/K

[kiterunner]

I take it that there is no father's name on his marriage certificate?

[Sunny Kate]

Kite there was no indication of TC's parents on any documents either from his first marriage to my 3x ggg mother Elizabeth in 1816 or his later marriage to Annie in 1851. I've not seen the MC of 1851 but a Druce descendant of that marriage said the information is not given.
The entry in the Suffolk- Sudbury Marriage Licences in 1816 is the first time he appears on any record.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Kate I've got to tell you that we are probably sort of related ...
My Bil is a descendant too lol ... I'm sure that I've got material he sent me somewhere....

[Shona]

Kate, thank you for providing me with an entertaining morning reading about all the court cases.

Ancestry have the following entries in the Freedom of the City of London Admission Papers collection.

- Charles Crickmer Druce, admitted 1857, father Thomas Charles Druce.

- Thomas Druce, born 1798, admitted 1821, father Charles Druce.

- John Druce, born 1799, admitted 1835, father Charles Druce.

There are two births in London for Thomas Druce at about the right time with Charles as the father.

Thomas Druce, baptised 25 October 1796 to Charles and Mary Druce.
Thomas Druce, born 20 November 1798 and baptised on 8 January 1799 to Charles and Mary.

The problem with all this is that Thomas was born in London, not Oxfordshire.

Lots of trees and photos on Ancestry as well.

[Shona]

I've got rather hooked on the Druce family and the case of Thomas Charles Druce being the Duke. But the more I read, the more I wonder whether Thomas Druce who married Elizabeth Crickmer is a different person from the Thomas Charles Druce who married Annie May.

There are certainly a lot of Druces in the 1843 Post Office directory for London:

Druce & Co, furniture department, Bazaar, 4 King Street, Portman Square
Druce & Brock, upholsterers etc, 200 Regent Street
Druce, Charles & sons, Attorneys, 10 Billiter Square
Druce Thos & Co, Hanstown Brewery, Low. St George St, Chelsea
Druce, Thos & Wm, timber and coal mers, Paradise Row, Chelsea
Druce, John, butcher, 13 Skinner St, Sommerstown
Druce, Joseph, butcher, 6 Pitfield St, Hoxton
Druce, Thomas, butcher, 20 Weymouth St, Portland Place
Druce Thomas jn, butcher, 33 Pitfield St, Hoxton
Druce, Wm sen, Feathers PH, 25 Wellington Terr, Waterloo Road
Druce Wm, jn, Rose & Crown, 15 Crown Street, Soho

Thomas Charles Druce, the brewer, died in 1860, leaving about £1,500. His address at the time was Warwick Street.

Looking at the electoral rolls for London for Thomas Druce, we get the following:
1844 200 Regent Street, house
1847 200 Regent Street, house
1850 Upper Baker Street, Portman Square, workshops
1851 20 Royal Avenue, Chelsea, Hanstown brewery and two houses adjoining
1851 Upper Baker Street, Portman Square, workshops
1852 20 Royal Avenue, Chelsea, Hanstown brewery and two houses adjoining
1853 As 1852
1858 128 Warwick Street, house
1858 58 Baker Street Portman Square, workshops

[kiterunner]

Kate, is your 2xg-grandparent a child of Elizabeth Crickmer or of Annie May?

[Shona]

Thomas Druce and Elizabeth Crickmer (married 1816) had the following children - all born in Suffolk.
- Henry Thomas Druce, born 1817
- Charles Crickmer Druce, born 1818
- George Druce, born 1819
- Frances Elizabeth Druce, born 1821
- William Druce, born 1827

Thomas Charles Druce and Annie May (married 1851) had the following children - all born in London:
- Albert/Herbert? Druce, born 1846
- Sidney Charles Druce, born 1848
- Florence Maria Druce, born 1850
- Walter Thomas Druce, born 1852
- Bertha Marion Druce, born 1854
- Louis Alfred Druce, born 1853

If this is the one person, where was he between 1827 when he was in Suffolk and the 1840s when he appears in London?

[kiterunner]

Frances Elizabeth's marriage cert:
ancestry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_194686-00348&fn=Frances+Elizabeth&ln=Dance&st=d&ssrc=&pid=5837728)

Her father is named as Thomas Charles Druce, upholsterer.

[Shona]

Reading about the famous court case where it was claimed that Thomas Charles Druce was the Duke, I saw this statement by Thomas's son, Herbert:

'I have not been able to find any account of the beginning of the business. I did not know of my own knowledge when it was started nor with whose money. I cannot recollect having seen the certificate of my birth. I have never searched nor know of any search being made. I have not seen a certificate of my baptism, nor searched for one, nor authorised a search to be made. I never saw a family Bible which recorded my birth. The first 50 years (about) of my father's life were a blank to me. I do not recollect being visited at Finchley Road by any relatives of my father's or mother's. I do not recollect my grandfathers or grandmothers.'

[Shona]

So it's the same man. Druce & Co - furniture - and Druce & Brock - upholsterers - are both run by Thomas Charles Druce.

Found this:

Tradesmen's vouchers for furnishing and decorating Sherborne House etc.1830-1845

Includes the Baker Street Bazaar; many from T. Boulnoise, 44 South Molton Street, upholsterer; Brock and Company/Druce and Brock, 200 Regent Street, upholsterers...

[Shona]

1835: With her sons, Madame Tussaud establishes a base in London at ‘The Baker Street Bazaar.’

[Shona]

Baker Street Bazaar of Baker Street, Portman Square, London, W:
• 1822 Company established at the former barracks of the Life Guards.
• 1840 to 1861 The Smithfield Club Cattle Show was held at the premises.
• 1914 Carriage and motor repository; depository for storage of furniture etc.; saddlery and harness factory. Specialities: exhibition of carriages and motors for sale; also has a department for the warehousing and removal of furniture.

[Sunny Kate]

Julie, maybe BINGO?????:D

Kite and Shona, thanks for your interest in the elusive Thomas Charles. A warning however - prolonged searching can become addictive!

Shona, yes the court cases and the reports are entertaining but so much is fantasy and little fact. Because of the Australian connection of George Hollamby Druce the papers here faithfully reported what was written in English papers. I haven't come across that snippet about Druce and Brock nor the bit about the Cattle show at the Bazaar.

Over the last five years I think I've read just about everything available on line and had contact with a number of Druce descendants from both of TC's families here and in the UK. Many of the Ancestry trees are copies of copies of copies and from what I've seen not researched. That's one reason I don't keep a tree there.
I saw records of the other Thomas Charles Druce the brewer. No one has evidence of TC's birth and the only reason I suspect Witney/ Oxfordshire is the information on the censuses.
There is one possibility of a family with a Thomas Druce in Eynsham and Ducklington in Oxfordshire but no son Thomas was born in the relevant years.

After I read Herbert Druce's statements at his Old Bailey trial I came to the conclusion that TC was probably the illegitimate son of an Oxfordshire Druce and decided to better himself. When he married Elizabeth Crickmer (not an elopement as speculated in some places as she was of age) she would have come into her inheritance from her father. TC no doubt saw this as the means to his upward mobility which helps explain how a draper's assistant could manage to become a business partner with the Boulnois people and then owner of the Baker Street Bazaar. I think he left Elizabeth about 1832-33 when he moved to London. She spent a number of years at Great Yarmouth where William was an apprentice before moving back to London where she died in 1851. TC married Annie within a month of Elizabeth's death although they had several children by that date.

My ancestor was William Crickmore Druce bn 1827 at Bury St Edmunds, son of Elizabeth Crickmer and TC. He arrived in NSW about the mid 1850s as did brother George. Although George is mentioned in a codicil of TC's will there is no mention of William, Frances or Charles.

If TC wanted to hide his origins he has certainly succeeded!

[Shona]

Check the link provided by Kite on Post #9. Frances married a butcher named John Izard and lived in London. She's traceable through the census records.

[Sunny Kate]

Thanks Shona. I 've seen a copy of Frances's MC from one of her descendants.
I've not seen her on either 1841 0r 1851 censuses and she wasn't with her mother Elizabeth in Norfolk.

I think TC will always be the BIG mystery amongst my direct ancestors.

[Shona]

In trying to resolve a wee problem in my tree, I turned to the OH and, in exasperation, said: 'I've got the right name, right year of birth, but wrong place for the baptism.' With a withering look, he reminded me that I was baptised several months after my birth and several hundred miles away from my place of birth.

Perhaps...and it's a long shot...Thomas was born in Whitney, but baptised elsewhere.

Do you have any info about him before he married in Suffolk?

[Sunny Kate]

To my knowledge nothing has ever come to light about Thomas before his marriage to Elizabeth in October 1816. It's as though he just 'grew' like Topsy!
I must admit I've not thought to look for him further afield perhaps even outside Oxfordshire. The name Druce is not unusual there but then as an upwardly aspiring draper's assistant it might be that Thomas unloaded his baptismal name for one that might carry more influence?

I don't know where he and Elizabeth met. As the marriage record describes Elizabeth as 'of Bungay' it has been assumed that's where she was born. However I have her baptism and family in Ditchingham Norfolk which I noticed isn't far Bungay. Perhaps TC also came from Norfolk?

For some time I've wondered if there is some document, hidden away in the Portland Collection from the time of the various court cases, that might shed some light on the mystery of TC.

[hothamwater]

Hi,
I know this is quite an old thread but this might be the best group of people to help - do any of you know of a Druce & Co furniture catalogue in existence?
I know this one sold a while ago:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/illustrated-catalogue-furniture-druce-532880543
My interest is that my family designed and made bedroom furniture sold by Druce. At least in the 1890s.
Also, a real long-shot, does anyone know if any Druce & Co records survived?
Any help much appreciated!
Thanks

[Merry]

Welcome to GF, hothamwater.

With regard to any archive material for Druce and Co, if their old records were kept on the premises (if they maintained old records!), then they may not have survived WW2:

http://www.westendatwar.org.uk/page_id__7_path__0p28p.aspx

[ElizabethHerts]

Just a thought. Search the London Metropolitan Archives catalogue. Also newspapers.

My mother's maternal family owned and ran a large draper's / outfitter's shop on Guildford High Street. When the shop finally closed in the 1960s, our family member scratched his head as he was in possession of all the old records. He deposited them at Surrey History Centre where there are boxes available to peruse with items such as wage books, staff records, etc and photos of the shop through the ages (with photos I hadn't seen of my great-grandparents).

[hothamwater]

Thanks very much for your reply. I did fear that was probably the case when I read of the bombing.
Does anyone know of an existence of any furniture catalogues?
Thanks again

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks very much for your reply. I did fear that was probably the case when I read of the bombing.
Does anyone know of an existence of any furniture catalogues?
Thanks again

Try the Victoria & Albert Museum:

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/n/national-art-library-trade-catalogues-collection/

[hothamwater]

Thanks but sadly they don't have any. I have checked them before. They have lots of others though.