Hannah/Annie Cooper

[ElizabethHerts]

I have a marriage as follows:

Forenames: Joseph John
Surname: Henson
Marriage Date: 14 Oct 1861
Marriage Year: 1861
Age: 25y
Record Group: Part 1 - 1
Ref ID: item 2 p 64
Spouse's Forenames: Hannah
Spouse's Surname: Cooper
Spouse's Age: 21y
Spouse's Father's Name: Edward Cooper
Parish: St. John the Baptist
City / Town: Chester
County: Cheshire
Record source: Diocese of Chester parish registers
of Marriages c1538-1910
Data provider: Cheshire Archives and Local Studies

The image says that Edward Cooper, Hannah's father, was a stonemason.

On the censuses Hannah's place of birth is given as Liverpool:

1871 Census
SHREWSBURY, Shropshire
RG10 piece 2772 folio 70 page 4
Longden Coleham, St Julian, Shrewsbury
John Jos Henson Head Mar 35 Watch Jobber Kings Cliffe
Northamptonshire
Annie Wife Mar 29 Liverpool
Fredk Willm Son 7 Scholar Mold Flintshire
George H Son 5 Scholar Mold Flintshire
Clara May Daur 2 Shrewsbury
Joseph Son 1 Shrewsbury


I have found a baptism that could be her:

Baptisms: 26 Dec 1841 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire
Hannah Cooper - Child of Edward Cooper & Ann
Abode: Leeds St
Occupation: Bricklayer
Baptised by: Tho. Halton Curate
Register: Baptisms 1841 - 1842, Page 123, Entry 982
Source: LDS Film 2045907
Source: LDS Film 1656204

It seems she might have had a brother, Charles, born at Preston in 1837.

This could be the family with Charles in 1841:

1841 Census
BURY, Lancashire
HO107 piece 539 folio 6/36 page 22
York Street, Bury, Heap
Edward Cooper 40 Brick Layer Yes
Ann Cooper 40 Yes
Martha Ellen 25 Weaver Cotton Yes
John Andrews 30 Nailer ? Yes
Margret Bromley 20 Cotton Spinner Yes
Cathrine Bromley
James Cooper 12 Bricklayer Yes
Maria Ellen 5 Yes
Charles Cooper 4 Yes


I'm not certain if this is Hannah/Annie's family.

I haven't been able to find any of them in 1851.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

[kiterunner]

Who were the witnesses at her marriage, Elizabeth?

[ElizabethHerts]

Kiterunner, they were Mary H?ing and and George Henson.

I think George was Frederick George Henson, Joseph's brother.

[ElizabethHerts]

Here is the link:

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/england-and-wales/details/M/33578441?rT=ALL&e=M&sn=Henson&snNXF=true&rg=5&cy=30&rC=1001&_zga_s=1

[kiterunner]

Some other Liverpool baptisms with parents Edward and Ann Cooper (not necessarily the same couple, of course!)

25 Dec 1859 at Liverpool St Mary Magdalene: Ann Jane, 17 Craven Street, marble mason
3 Nov 1861 Liverpool St Mary Magdalene: Maria, Finch Street, mason (mother's name Annie)
4 Jun 1865 Liverpool St Mary Magdalene: George Kendrick, 23 Court, Finch Street, mason
21 Sep 1869 Liverpool St Jude: Mary Ann, Cecil St., mason
25 Nov 1877 Liverpool St Jude: Benjamin and Matilda, 77 Low Wood St., marble mason
3 Jun 1881 Liverpool St Jude: William, 5 FitzRoy, marble mason

[kiterunner]

That was just the link to the GRO marriage index page, Elizabeth.

I've looked at the image of the parish register and the other witness is Mary King.

[ElizabethHerts]

Kate, I found all those but I dismissed them this morning as when I found them on the census they were too young to be Hannah/Annie's parents.

For a while I thought it was the same family.

Can you see Hannah/Annie in 1861 before her marriage? Possibly in the Chester/Great Boughton area? She and Joseph married in October so I wonder if she was working in the area.

[kiterunner]

Found a marriage for Mary Ann with father Edward Cooper, marble mason, just to check that these children were baptised as babies, not teenagers! Yes, her age at marriage fits with her being a baby in 1869.

[ElizabethHerts]

That was just the link to the GRO marriage index page, Elizabeth.

I've looked at the image of the parish register and the other witness is Mary King.

Oops, sorry! Thanks for deciphering the surname.

[kiterunner]

Part of Great Boughton is missing from the 1861 census, Elizabeth.

[ElizabethHerts]

I didn't know that, Kate. That explains why I couldn't find her. I wonder if she was with family, or perhaps her parents were already dead.

[kiterunner]

This could also be unconnected, but there is a Mary Cooper age 20 marrying in 1864 to a Thomas Burghes at St Alban, Bevington, Liverpool, and her father is Edward Cooper, bricklayer.

[ElizabethHerts]

Ooooh, thanks. The Edward and Ann Cooper I have in 1841 both state they are 40 (approx.) so they couldh have had more children.

This is the tentative marriage I had for Hannah's parents:

Marriage: 4 Oct 1835 St Martin in the Fields, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Edward Cooper - Bricklayer Bachelor of this Parish
Ann McCartney - (X), Spinster of this Parish
Witness: George Garner, (X); Ann Jane Droson
Married by Banns by: Chas.Tho. Gladwin Minister
Register: Marriages 1829 - 1837, Page 239, Entry 716

[kiterunner]

Edward and Mary in 1851:
ancestry 1851 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=LANHO107_2185_2185-0247&fn=Mary&ln=Cooper&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12917689)

Edward Cooper Head Mard 35 Bricklayer Liverpool Lancashire
Arthur Do Son 14 Servant Do "
Mary Do Daur 7 Do "

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Kate.

This is the puzzle. He is now 35.
Is this Hannah's father or not?

Is the 1841 Census as different family?

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1841&uir=a073c4f66a06200c1a86a63c8084baea&lineNo=13&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=2050d6c37152634396de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6

[ElizabethHerts]

I think I found an Ann Cooper in prison in 1851.

[ElizabethHerts]

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1851&uir=da9900225b100a3e6c899a630d9b324d&lineNo=13&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=b462bb8dc4868d7696de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=9

[ElizabethHerts]

There are quite a few possible baptisms for Edward Cooper, father, and quite a few from Preston, which is where Charles Cooper was baptised in 1837. I found them on LancsOPC.

[kiterunner]

Okay, that Mary family I found in 1851 looks to be a different family from the one that you found in 1841, because I think this is Mary's family in 1841 as they have an Arthur:
ancestry 1841 census (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=LANHO107_563_564-0617&fn=Arthur&ln=Cooper&st=r&ssrc=&pid=5914783)

No Hannah and not at Leeds Street. (Their address is McKee Street.) Also this Edward's occupation is brickmaker in 1841.

Edward Cooper 25 Brickmaker Y
Ann Do 20 Y
Arthur Do 3 Y
John Do 1 Y

[kiterunner]

Hunter Street, where the Arthur and Mary family are in 1851, is not far from Leeds Street and McKee Street seems to have been in that area too.

[kiterunner]

The younger Edward and Ann couple are at Adelaide Place, Liverpool, in 1861:
ancestry 1861 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=LANRG9_2715_2718-0039&fn=Edward&ln=Cooper&st=d&ssrc=&pid=23170692)
Edward Cooper Head Mar 49 Bricklayer L'pool
Ann Do Wife Mar 44 Do
Mary Do Daughter Un 17 Scholar Do
Ann Do Do 5 Do Do

[ElizabethHerts]

It's very confusing, Kate!

I have found the birth reference for Hannah in 1841 so I think I'll get my relative to buy the certificate. He now has a new hobby thanks to a visit he and his wife paid us two weeks ago!

[kiterunner]

Sounds like a good idea.

[ElizabethHerts]

Although there is a problem as there must be two Hannah Coopers born c. 1841:

[kiterunner]

Oh yes, I'd been looking at that one before, sorry, I never thought of it being the one that you found the birth ref for.

[ElizabethHerts]

I wonder if this is Charles, the brother, as he was born in Preston.

There is a son called Edward:

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1871&uir=376148ebb7a7372ab4c6bd3b4645870f&lineNo=4&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=be283ab04928bff796de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6#

1871 Census
COOPER, Charles
SALFORD, Lancashire
RG10 piece 4027 folio 94 page 30

[ElizabethHerts]

Both Charles and son Edward are bricklayers.

[kiterunner]

But have you found any connection between Charles's family and Liverpool, Elizabeth?

[ElizabethHerts]

Just really the hope that this is the same parents for both baptisms:

Baptisms: 28 Jul 1837 St John, Preston, Lancashire
Charles Cooper - Child of Edward Cooper & Ann
Abode: Kilshaw St
Occupation: Bricklayer
Baptised by: Roger Carus Wilson Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1836 - 1838, Page 198, Entry 1581
Source: LDS Film 1278755

Baptisms: 26 Dec 1841 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire
Hannah Cooper - Child of Edward Cooper & Ann
Abode: Leeds St
Occupation: Bricklayer
Baptised by: Tho. Halton Curate
Register: Baptisms 1841 - 1842, Page 123, Entry 982
Source: LDS Film 2045907
Source: LDS Film 1656204

I'm probably clutching at straws.

[kiterunner]

I think it's more likely that Hannah is the daughter of that couple I found in Liverpool near to Leeds Street.

[kiterunner]

Arthur Cooper marries Sarah Ellen Briscoe 30 Jun 1860 at St David's Church Liverpool, age full, occupation Tobacconist, father Edward Cooper bricklayer. I already looked at this Arthur on a census and thought it couldn't be the same person because of his occupation being Tobacconist! I think it was the 1861 census but will have to look again tomorrow as it's late now.

[kiterunner]

Yes, he is in this household in 1861, in Everton, Liverpool:

James Leary Head M 30 Watch Finisher Lancashire Liverpool
Mary Do Wife M 29 Do Do
Elizabeth Briscoe Sister in Law Un 16 Do Do
(... Leary children...)
Arthur Cooper Bro in Law M 22 Tobacconist Do Do
Sarah Do Sister M 20 Do Do

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Kate.

I wish I could just find Hannah on any census before she married.

[kiterunner]

If we do find her on the 1851 census I don't think she will be with her parents!

[ElizabethHerts]

Kate, I hope I'm not being a nuisance but I'm asking myself a few questions here:

1. On her marriage certificate Hannah states her father Edward Cooper is a stone mason. The 1841 baptism I found gives Edward Cooper as a bricklayer.
This worries me. Do you think this is the incorrect baptism? I'm not sure that a bricklayer and a stonemason are equivalent skills. Of couse, there is the possibility Hannah is trying to make her family look good on her marriage certificate!

2. Do you think Arthur and Mary are Hannah/Annie's siblings? Therefore this Edward and Ann are her parents. If so, where is Hannah?

[kiterunner]

1. On her marriage certificate Hannah states her father Edward Cooper is a stone mason. The 1841 baptism I found gives Edward Cooper as a bricklayer.
This worries me. Do you think this is the incorrect baptism? I'm not sure that a bricklayer and a stonemason are equivalent skills. Of couse, there is the possibility Hannah is trying to make her family look good on her marriage certificate!
That worries me too, Elizabeth. I don't think we can be sure that it is the right baptism for your Hannah unless we find something to prove it. I was wondering whether the Edward who is a marble mason on those later baptisms might turn out to be Hannah's brother but not found a connection there yet.

2. Do you think Arthur and Mary are Hannah/Annie's siblings? Therefore this Edward and Ann are her parents. If so, where is Hannah?
I think they are the siblings of the Hannah whose baptism you have found, but not sure whether this is your Hannah. She could be with relatives / friends / institution of some kind on the 1851 census or of course it could be that the Hannah baptised in 1841 died before 1851. There is a Hannah Cooper death registered Oct-Dec 1841 Liverpool but of course it is too early for age to be on the death index. As the baptism was 26 Dec 1841, she would have had to have died very soon after that for it to be her.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks for your reply, Kate. It's very much along the lines I was thinking.

I saw that death too, and this would explain why Hannah isn't with her family.

I think I shall have to return to this another time as at the moment I'm going round in circles. It's for a family member, and I'll have to see how far he wants to take this.

Many thanks for your help as always, Kate.

[Merry]

I haven't absorbed this thread properly but:

Edward who is a marble mason on those later baptisms might turn out to be Hannah's brother but not found a connection there yet.



I just wondered if you'd noticed that in 1881 the above Edward is b in North Wales and in 1871 he is b in Liverpool (and whether that makes the remotest difference to anything! lol)

Edward Cooper 1881 census (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LANRG11_3699_3703-0153&fn=Edward&ln=Cooper&st=d&ssrc=&pid=9218009)

Edward Cooper 1871 census, page 1 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=7619&path=Lancashire.West+Derby.ALL.11.19&sid=&gskw=Edward+Cooper)

Edward Cooper 1871 census, page 2 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=7619&path=Lancashire.West+Derby.ALL.11.20&sid=&gskw=Edward+Cooper)

[kiterunner]

I haven't absorbed this thread properly but:
I just wondered if you'd noticed that in 1881 the above Edward is b in North Wales and in 1871 he is b in Liverpool (and whether that makes the remotest difference to anything! lol)


Ah, thanks, Merry. On the 1851 England census he is in West Derby, Lancashire, marble mason age 15, born Denbigh Llandrillo, with parents George and Jane, and there is no Hannah in the family, so I don't think he is connected to Hannah.

[kiterunner]

There is an Edward Cooper ("Coopwood" on ancestry) who is a stone mason in Hyde, Cheshire, on the 1851 census but he looks too young to be Hannah's father - 27. He is born Derbyshire and his wife Martha is born Cheshire and they don't have a Hannah.