James Holden and Mary Robishaw

[Olde Crone]

FURTHER UPDATE POST #33 14 June 2015

UPDATE POST#28 23rd April 2015

Thanks to Merry, I'm having another go at finding the first marriage of my James Holden 1825-1898.

I have made a list of every marriage between 1839-1859 (when he married for the second time, a widower) and have eliminated quite a few, but this one has me quite excited, except I can't see where to go with it!

1 April 1845 Prestwich St Mary, Lancashire

James Holden (X) full, bachelor, ENGINEER, of Oldham

to

Mary Robishaw (X) full, spinster of Oldham

GF: James Holden, a carter
BF: not given
wits: Mally Armstrong and James Sheldrick.

I like this one very much because my James was a factory engineer and his father (actually, his grandfather, but that's another story) was James Holden, a farmer - not incompatible with being a carter. My James would not have been of full age in 1845 but not far short. It wouldn't have been the last lie he told!

I can only see one child for this marriage on Lancsbmd, John, born 1853 in Oldham mmn Robishaw. That John possibly died in 1856 aged 4. I cannot identify a death for a Mary Holden. I cannot identify a baptism for Mary Robishaw as there are quite a few.

Can anyone suggest another research path? Or...can anyone see a likely looking James and Mary Holden in 1851 in or around Oldham?

Thanks in advance.

OC

[Merry]

This looks like that couple (but not yours if b Yorkshire!):

1851

Dogs Ford Road, Royton, Oldham

HOLDEN, James Head Married 27 Engineer Cotton Mill b Yorkshire
HOLDEN, Mary Wife Married 28 Reeler Cotton b Oldham, Lancashire

[Merry]

When did your James say he was a factory engineer? (was it him who was supposed to be a train driver until it was realised he looked after the engines in a factory, or was that somone else?!!)

[Merry]

hang on though.....On the next census the same couple have three children b Oldham, so what mmn was recorded for them?

Benjamin 9
George 5
Elizabeth 4 months




...................

[kiterunner]

There are possibles for Benjamin and George with MMN Robinson. Not found Elizabeth yet, though.

[Merry]

Robinson for Benjamin and George (which I suppose is a mistake?!!) but I can't see a reg for Elizabeth.

[Merry]

Sorry, snap Kate!

[Olde Crone]

Oh, RRRRRRRRATS!

If they are together in 1861, then he's not mine because mine was married to Ellen Grimshaw in 1859 and with her in 61.

(Yes, he's the one who drove the Flying Scotsman till we realised he was a stationary engine driver in a factory, haha).

Thankyou for trying though. Back to the drawing board. Only another 87 to go.

OC

[Merry]

There is the other factory engineer though! :D :D :D

[Olde Crone]

I can't find him though, Merry. Ruth Patefield is back in prime position at the moment.

OC

[Merry]

But it's Ruth Patefield's husband who is the other factory engineer, isn't it?

[Olde Crone]

Still looking for my notes, Merry!

OC

[Kit]

OC maybe your first wife hadn't died when he married the second time.

I had a relative who disappeared on several census. His wife said she was married on every census but he was not there. I could find her an all census from the time they married. I found a likely man for my relative but decided he could not be the right one when I worked backwards as he was married and living with his wife on the 1861 census. However over time more marriage records appeared online and the kids got married and Dad was on the marriage certs. All info pointed to this other man. Finally one child married from Dad's address.

So it turned out Dad abandoned his wife, shacked up with another and had a family with her. Both "wives" claimed to be married to him and on the first census after the second relationship began both listed him on the census.

Dad eventually married his second "wife" after the first one died 40 years later and his younger kids were well into their 20s or 30s.

I hope that makes sense.

[tenterfieldjulie]

OC I have missing possible marriage and baptisms for Greenacres Independent at Oldham. His second marriage was found in Lancashire.
On the Census we've found a son from his first marriage and also the oldest daughter from the 2nd marriage, their births given at Greenacres, Oldham, but while I've found the later children's baptisms there, not the older two.
Good hunting .. maybe they are all together somewhere.

[Olde Crone]

Kit

I'm not even going to go there, thankyou!

So far, I have 217 marriages to examine and rule in or out. And those are only the ones in Lancashire, so it may be quite some time before I can start considering the possibility of bigamy, to add to my trouble!

OC

[Merry]

So far, I have 217 marriages to examine

How near the top are James and Ruth? :cool:

[Olde Crone]

James and Ruth are the best bet yet - my bro is going to look at the mariage entry if he can find out where the records are at the mo, Man Central Library is still closed. If not, I shall get the cert (even though I have made a note to myself that I've already ordered it back in 1998!)

I've knocked off a few more hot contenders on the grounds that everyone was telling the truth which I know is dangerous, but I have to eliminate the obvious first, then re examine them if nothing else can be found.

OC

[Merry]

my bro is going to look at the mariage entry

Good. :)

If that James isn't yours, I hope he can be positively identified by his father's details/baptism or something.

[Olde Crone]

Well, finally got the details of the marriage of James Holden and Ruth Patefield. Needless to say, I cannot rule them either in or out!

Man Cath 16 Sept 1849
James Holden (X) 24 bach lab abode Red Bank
F= Robert Holden, labourer
Ruth Patefield (signed)24 spinster of Foundry St
F = Reuben Patefield weaver
Wits Elijah Patefield, Mary Patefield.

I would dismiss this as my James says that his father is JAMES HOLDEN, when he marries my 2 x GGM in 1859. However I strongly suspect (98%) that his father was actually ROBERT Ashton. So is he fudging the issue and giving correct first name of father?

I am sure there was no James Holden with a father Robert Holden, born Chorley, but I will have another look at my baptism extractions!

OC

[Merry]

Typical!

Elijah is probably Ruth's brother (bap 1812 son of Charles and Peggy). Not sure about Mary. Elijah married Sarah Greenhalgh, witnesses John Driver and Mary Green, so presumably no connection to James Holden, though the surname Green rings a bell for reasons I don't remember!

It's a good job Ruth has a reasonably rare first name as otherwise we might not even know this marriage belonged to the factory engineer as he said labourer as occ!

Do you think Ruth's death cert would hold any clues? What are the chances that James already knew Ellen (a neighbour, or something) and she registered Ruth's death??? ..............Well, you never know! lol .....Hmmmm....I suppose that's extremely unlikely as I presume Ellen always lived in Manchester after coming from the IoM?

I'm thinking if this IS the right James then it's becoming more likely that the moon-faced Joseph is Ellen's son as Ruth doesn't seem to have had any children (did she? I don't remember any?) and James and Ruth lived in Bury not Manchester.

[Olde Crone]

I think I'll have to get Ruth's death cert.

Ellen Grimshaw - James' second wife - worked for a Doctor in Oldham in 1851. Maybe she did somehow know James and Ruth.

Green soumds familiar because James' son William married Eleanor Green! There was a Mary Green - I need to refresh my memory though.

OC

[Merry]

I don't know if this helps at all (and I expect you've done it already!), and take into consideration that I don't know the Manchester area at all....I looked at births of children named Joseph Grimshaw between 1853 and 1856 inc (he was 6 in 1861) and by playing with FreeBMD and Lancs BMD worked out the following (this is assuming no one moved subdistrict between birth and death!):

Date..............District........Sub District..............death or other comment

1853 Q1.........Chorlton.......Ardwick................. ..none before 1861, see below
1853 Q1.........Chorlton.......Hulme................... ...none before 1861, see below
1853 Q1.........Manchester...Ancoats................... d 1854 Q2 aged 1

1853 Q3.........Manchester...Deansgate................d 1855 Q1 aged 1

1854 Q1.........Chorlton........Ardwick................ ...none before 1861, see below

1855 Q2.........Chorlton........Hulme.................. ...d 1858 Q1 aged 2

1856 Q1.........Chorlton........Hulme.................. ...d 1856 Q4 aged 0

There is a spare death on FreeBMD in Manchester district in 1856 Q2 that isn't showing on Lancs BMD, so can't do anything with that one!

The 1853 Ardwick birth is probably the son of Samuel and Ellen Grimshaw and was born in Openshaw and is aged 8 in 1861.

I've not found a really good candidate for the 1853 Hulme birth reg. On the other hand I have a spare 8-year-old Joseph b Openshaw (ie a second one b there, which should be Ardwick sub-district) who is in the Chorlton workhouse in 1861.

The 1854 Ardwick birth is probably the son of Frederick and Eliza Grimshaw who were still in Ardwick in 1861 when their Joseph was aged 7.

So, other than the Hulme 1853 birth which seems a bit early, I don't have any spares! So, that's no help really! lol

[Olde Crone]

Thanks Merry, yes, I did start to send off for these various birth certs, specifying that mother's name must be Ellen/Eleanor but none were correct. However that was a few yars ago, so I will check your list against my old list!

Mildly interesting is that Red Bank and Foundry St are within shouting distance of Percival St, where everyone eventually finished up. Also, Elijah Patefield (Ruth's brother) was living in Red Bank in 1861, so I speculate that either James was his lodger in 1849, or (more likely!) the marriage record is mangled and it was Ruth who lived at Red Bank, James who lived at Foundry St.

This would all be so much easier if James who married Ruth had turned out to be a 94 year old violin maker with a father called Theosophilus. Instead it's the usual "I am so nearly right that you are now going to spend 15 years examining minute and unhelpful clues before you can safely discard me".

Actually, I do think this is him.

OC

[Merry]

I wonder if Ruth's James Holden left his finger prints on the original marriage cert and what we could compare them with??!!! :cool:

*gets out forensic science kit*

[Merry]

I suppose there's a fair chance Ellen didn't register Joseph at all (if he's hers, that is). I bet she did have him baptised though. Pity he wasn't born in a little village. :(

[Olde Crone]

Yes, looked for baptisms for Joseph because I thought the same, she would have had him baptised even if she didn't register him, but I didn't find anything.

Joseph consistently said he was born in Manchester, so I think that's probably correct. And that's the only clue I have! When Joseph married, he said his father was James Holden, but that doesn't prove anything, he may not have known the truth at that point, or may have been saving face in front of his new bride and her family.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

It probably doesn't help, but my Grimshaws who were in the Manchester area at the time all moved to Bradford in the mid-1860s, presumably because of the cotton famine.

[Olde Crone]

Thanks Mary, I have them forward, it's just the gap between birth and age 35 I'm trying to fill!!!

OC

[Olde Crone]

Well, Ruth's DC has finally arrived (I was shamed into it by Mrry, lol) and of course it is virtually useless!

26th March 1856 Four Lane Ends Pilkington
Ruth Holden
31 years
Male (!) (corrected to female by registrar, error 10)
Wife of James Holden A RAILWAY LABOURER
Phthisis 12 months uncertified
X the mark of William Warburton in attendance Four Lane Ends Pilkington
26th March 1856

So, as you see, nothing to rule this either in or out AGAIN, grrr!

However, am I just straw-clutching...Holden family myth and legend always had it that James Holden was "an engine driver, drove the flying Scotsman". Well, he certainly nver drove the Flying Scotsman because we found him as a (factory) engine driver at marriage...but might he have been a railway labourer previously and this got gussied up into the railway story?

(His son, my great grandfather, worked in a railway yard in 1876-ish, where he apparently took on all comers and despite being small and bandy, was known as Cock o'th' Yard, lol).

I don't know who William Warburton was. Four Lane Ends appears to have been a tiny hamlet not worth mentioning.

OC

[Merry]

I don't know who William Warburton was.

They seem to be ten a penny in Pilkington! *wonders if he was a baker* :rolleyes:

I'm sorry the cert wasn't more enlightening!

[Mary from Italy]

There are some records for railway workers online; on Ancestry, I think.

[kiterunner]

Yes, but they don't include labourers.

[Olde Crone]

My apologies for bringing this up again, but I have just been tidying some papers and found this:

Robert Holding m Ellen ?
Their children baptised RG4 -1469 Methodists Preston

22 Sept 1813/20 Oct 1813 Thomas b Longton
14 Dec 1818/12 Jan 1819 Joseph b Farington, Penwortham
8 Feb 1824/18 April 1824 JAMES b Penwortham.

Now, this probably isn't MY James, who consistently said born Wheelton/Chorley, father James, BUT it could possibly be the one who married Ruth Patefield and said his father was Robert! GRRRRRR.

I can't find a marriage for Robert Holding to Ellen but assume before 1813. Please can anyone see any of these people in 1851, so that I can rule them out!

(This is what comes of tidying up, you see. I have a horrid feeling James may have pushed the box over deliberately)

Thankyou.

OC

[kiterunner]

This is the 1841 census entry:
1841 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/LANHO107_526_527-0203/15711232?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja*s %26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhold*n*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbd y%3d1826%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msbpn__ftp_x% 3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3 dpenwortham%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Turnpike Lane, Penwortham, Lancashire
Robert Holding 55 Farmer Y
Ellen Do 50 Y
Joseph Do 20 Y
James Do 15 Y
-
Ellen Cottam 12 FS Y

(Robert Holden is a farmer on James's baptism, on the image on ancestry.)

[kiterunner]

This could be that James in 1851:
1851 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/LANHO107_2198_2198-0537/13142401?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja* s%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhold*n*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msb dy%3d1825%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msbpn__ftp_x %3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng _x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%2 6msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26mscn g0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26 uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d70%26 fsk%3dBEDczMwIgAAinABwboM-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Little Scotland, Blackrod, Lancashire
James Atherton Head M 64 Engineer at Colliery Lancs Adlington
Betty Do Wife M 60 Do Standish
James Holding Lodger M 26 Farm Labourer Do Farington

[kiterunner]

Possible marriage for him? (from Lancs OPC)
23 May 1850 at St Mary the Virgin, Bury
James Holding, full age, carter, bachelor, Holcome Hey
Alice Longworth, full age, spinster, Holcome Hey
Fathers Robert Holding, farmer, and Joseph Hutchinson, weaver.

Need to find more to confirm it though, since his wife isn't with him in 1851.

[kiterunner]

Found this massive family in 1851; some of the ages aren't very clear as they have thick lines through them:

1851 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/LANHO107_2270_2270-0487/13709770?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsf n%3djos*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhold*n*%26gsln_x%3d 1%26msbdy%3d1819%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msbpn __ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1% 26msfng%3drob*%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng _x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1 %26mssns0_x%3d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlan*%26gsk w_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Robert Holden Head Mar 66 Farmer of 91 Acres Lancashire Weeton
Ellen Do Wife Mar 62 Do Esbrick
Thomas Do Son Mar 39(?) Do Longton
Joseph Do Son Mar 33(?) Do Farrington
Magdalene Dother in Law Mar 40(?) Do Freckleton
Mariah Do Doughter in Law Mar 30 Do Borskow
William Do Grand Son 12 Scholar Do Farrington
Robert Do Do Son 10 Do Do Layland
Thomas Do Do Son 8 Do Do Farrington
Sarah Ellen Do Do Daur 6 Do Do Farrington
James Do Do Son 4 Do Darwen
Joseph Do Do Son 2 Do Winmarleigh
Henry Do Do Son 5 Do Farrington
Elenar Do Do Daur 4 Do Farrington
Elisabeth Do Do Daur 3 Do Farrington
Robert Do Do Son 7 months Do Winmarleigh
James Jackson Servant U 40 Farm Servant Do Layland
William Higham Do U 24 Do Do Do
John Boulton Do U 25 Do Do Tarleton
William Cookson Do U 22 Do Do Do
Ann Lilley House Serv U 13 House Servant Lancashire Ruston

[kiterunner]

Looking back at post #19, the James who married Ruth Patefield said his father was Robert Holden, labourer, so probably not the same one.

[Olde Crone]

Oh, thankyou so much Kate - I've been trapped on the phone for an hour, sorry.

Oh dear, what to make of post #37, Robert Holden b WEETON - surely not a misspelling for Wheelton!

However, the James Holden above who married Alice Longworth in 1850, his father Robert Holding, can't be the one who married Ruth Patefield, as he married her in 1849 and she died in 1856. So that does seem to leave Ruth Patefield in the running after all.

OC