How to identify my G Father?

[Colkeeper]

How do I identify my Grandfather?

I have found out that his surname is not what I've always been led to believe. His name is George Norris - I don't know of any middle names and I don't know his birth or death details. He did not marry my grandmother and I've been told that he is some 12yrs her senior. He was the father of my mother and all of her subsequent siblings. My mothers birth certificate was the only one to bear his last name. I know what district of London they lived in, but no actual address. My grandmother was borne in 1886. I have used the National Archive search facility to know avail and have come to the conclusion that I have insufficient info. I'm new to genealogy research and need some advice and guidance. Can any help please!

[kiterunner]

Welcome to the forum, Colin.

Can you post up all the information that you have, leaving out the names of any living people? For instance, what was your grandmother's name? Maybe we can come up with something to help.

[JBee]

There's quite a number of George Norris's in London in the 1911 census. If he was about 12 years older then he'd have been born c1874.

Need to know your grandmother's name to work out which household if they were living together at that time.

[kiterunner]

Doesn't your mother's birth certificate give an address where they were living? And the other children's birth certificates? Also, does your mother's birth certificate state George's occupation?

[Colkeeper]

My grandmother, Ethel Spratt, was first married in 1909 to a Frederick Kirkham. Since that date she met my grandfather and gave birth to my mother in 1914. Her birth certificate is post card size and contains minimal information, beyond the date of birth and my mothers name. I am in the process of contacting an Aunt (in law) who may know his second name, if any, and address where he lived. if the results here are negative, I'm, stumped. can you assist.

[Olde Crone]

Colin

you need to send for your mother's full birth cert, which will have on it the name of her father (hopefully!) and also the address where Ethel was living at the time of the birth.

OC

[kiterunner]

Her birth certificate is post card size and contains minimal information, beyond the date of birth and my mothers name.

This will not be a full birth certificate, but either a "certificate of registry of birth" which was received at the time of registration, or a "short birth certificate" which she may have applied for after they were introduced in 1947. (But I think the short birth certificate would be bigger than your description so probably the first of these.) You can order a full birth certificate from the GRO (now part of the IPS) for £9.25 and this should give you the full information such as place of residence, father's name and occupation, etc.


This is the link to the GRO site where you can order the certificate. If you need help finding the reference numbers etc, let us know!
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

[Olde Crone]

I'm not seeing a birth in 1914 for any of those surnames combined with any of the others - what SURNAME is on your mother's BC, please?

OC

[kiterunner]

There is a possible marriage between Frederick Iverson Kirkham and Ethel Jane Spratt in the April-June quarter of 1909, Camberwell district. (Unfortunately, the way the GRO marriage index works pre-1911 is that it gives the names of all the brides and grooms on the page without showing who married whom.)

So, this could be completely unrelated, but I have found a couple called George Kirkham and Ethel Jane Kirkham on the London electoral register for 1922 at 20 Arklow Road, Deptford. Like I said, this could be nothing to do with them, but just posting it up in case it turns out to be useful later.

[kiterunner]

Further to my last post, looking at the 1934 electoral roll, the following names are listed at 20 Arklow Road, Deptford:
Kirkham, George
Kirkham, Ethel Jane
Norriss, George
Norriss, Ethel Jane


!!!!!

[Shona]

Frederick Iverson Kirkham married Ethel Jane Spratt in 1909. There is a probate record for Frederick Iverson Kirkham, otherwise Frederick Iverson, 1935, Brighton. However, his widow isn't Ethel.

[Merry]

Further to my last post, looking at the 1934 electoral roll, the following names are listed at 20 Arklow Road, Deptford:
Kirkham, George
Kirkham, Ethel Jane
Norriss, George
Norriss, Ethel Jane


!!!!!

Oooh, that's what I was just looking at!!

[Merry]

Frederick Iverson Kirkham married Ethel Jane Spratt in 1909. There is a probate record for Frederick Iverson Kirkham, otherwise Frederick Iverson, 1935, Brighton. However, his widow isn't Ethel.

No, he re-married in 1925.

[Shona]

No, he re-married in 1925.

Thanks for the clarification, Merry.

We'd all be brill on Fastest Finger First on WWTBAM.

[WendyPusey]

1911 census

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2352&iid=02466_0627_03&fn=Alfred&ln=Kirkham&st=r&ssrc=&pid=635000

[Shona]

No, he re-married in 1925. Just found that record. Can't find any divorce from Ethel.

[kiterunner]

Not all divorces are listed online.

[kiterunner]

I was hoping to find George's occupation from a street directory, but the 1934 London directory doesn't have an entry for 20 Arklow Road.

[Shona]

From the London Gazette, 4 May 1934

DOROTHY GWENDOLINE KIRKHAM,
Deceased..
Pursuant to the Trustee Act, 1925.
NOTICE is hereby given that all creditors and
other persons - Having any claims or demands
against the estate of Dorothy Gwendoline
Kirkham, late oF 51, Southview Drive, Westcliff-on-
Sea, in the county of Essex, Spinster, deceased,'
who died on the 5th day of January, 1934, and
letters of administration of 'whose estate were
granted by the Lewes District Registry of the
Probate Division of His Majesty's High Court of
Justice on the 16th day of April, 1934, to Frederick
Iverson Kirkham, the administrator of the estate
of the said deceased, are hereby required to send
the particulars,, in writing, of their claims or
demands to us, the undersigned, as Solicitors for
the said administrator - on or before the 11th day
of July, 1934, after which date the said administrator
will proceed to distribute the assets of the
said deceased amongst the persons entitled
thereto, having regard only to the debts, claims
and demands of which he shall then have had
notice; and he will not be liable for the assets of
the said deceased, or any part thereof, so distributed,
to any person or persons of whose claims
or demands he shall not then have had notice.
Dated this 2nd day of May, 1934.
G. H. FOWLER and SHAW, 11, Prince
Albert (Street, Brighton, Solicitors for the
said Administrator.

[Merry]

I think she is his umarried sister

Births Dec 1894

Kirkham Dorothy Gwendoline Reading 2c 374


Same parents in 1901.

[Shona]

He may therefore have got the money and when he died the next year, it went to his widow, Louisa.

[Merry]

My grandmother was borne in 1886.

In 1911 she said she was aged 21, so it looks like this is her birth registration:

Births Mar 1890
Spratt Ethel Jane Camberwell 1d 929

[kiterunner]

There is a death registration Apr-Jun 1971 St Albans for Ethel Jane Kirkham, birth date 9 Jan 1892. It could be that the year of birth is wrong there but the day and month could be correct, i.e. she was born 9 Jan 1890. (That's if your grandmother did die in St Albans district, Colin? And I'm not barking up the wrong tree?)

[Olde Crone]

I'm confused!

I have found three Kirkham/Spratt births - 1918 then a 12 year gap then 1930 and 1933. Were there really no children born between 1918 and 1930?

I cannot see the birth of your mother in 1914 under any of those names.

OC

[Merry]

Colin said his mother's cert was the only one that had the name Norris on it, and if you look at 1916 Q4 there's a possible fit in Greenwich district. I'm not posting it just in case the person is still alive. (I realise it's not the year Colin said though)

[Olde Crone]

Oh, I've just realised that Colin said his mother's cert is the only one which names the father - I bet that's not right, because he was calling himself George Kirkham by the time the other children were born and I should think he's named on their certs as George kirkham. After all, why would he want to make his children appear illegitimate when it seems he lived with their mother for many years as man and wife.

(Thanks Merry, I didn't look as far as 1916)

OC

[Olde Crone]

Yes, got it - indexed in both surnames so not married.

He's using the name Kirkham by 1918, I wonder if it's significant that conscription came in in 1916 and he wanted to avoid being called up! Or maybe it was just simpler for him to call himself Kirkham so that it looked as if they were married.

OC

[Shona]

And meanwhile, the husband, Frederick Kirkham, is going by the name of Frederick Iverson.

[Merry]

And meanwhile, the husband, Frederick Kirkham, is going by the name of Frederick Iverson.


Where is he doing that?

[Olde Crone]

So, back to the original Q, which was "Who was George Norris/s and how do I identify him?".

As stated upthread, you will have to buy your mother's full birth cert which will hopefully state an occupation for George, which may help to identify him on census. Otherwise it will be a case of trying to identify all George Norrises and eliminating them! Do you know when George died?

OC

[Phoenix]

If George and Ethel Jane could be traced to an address at the start of WW2, you could get hold of details of his dob from the records that formed the basis of identity cards. You have to have an exact address and it costs a fair bit, but it would narrow down the contenders.

Other possible lines to pursue would be to see whether school records survive for the children and if the father is named on those.

[kiterunner]

It may not be possible to get access to such recent school records nowadays.

[Olde Crone]

But the father is known anyway, isn't he? I bet my bottom dollar he is on the younger sibs birth certs as George Kirkham.

OC