Help needed with image please

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I have both a subscription to Ancestry and FMP. I can only find this image on Ancestry
1851 census, the search is for John Connor b 1821 Scotland, living in Manchester, Lancashire

The results show him as living with wife Ann, 28 b Ireland and two children Robt 6 and Ann 4 born Manchester
A Mary Connor b c 1833 Ireland is with them as a servant


The image is in a bad way and is red
I can't read the address or his occupation.
There would seem to be 2 other children age 2 and 3 months or weeks on the image, but the names are illegible so not transcribed
I can't find this family on 1851 FMP.

I can't find them at all in 1861

It is the daughter Ann I am interested in, I have all the information after 1865 when she marries John Gill. I have just sent off this morning for the marriage cert in order to trace her before she marries. As they are Catholics, the parish records on line are of no help.

I have tried inverting the image in Photoshop, but I still can't read it. Any help with this 1851 image or the family in 1861 would be gratefully received.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Doh, after days looking at this, I have turned them up on FMP
they have them as Cowans and the missing children as Catherine and Teresa, the servant is down as Ann Sheridan

[ElizabethHerts]

FMP don't provide an image, just a typewritten transcript, for 1851.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

That is because the originals were flood damaged and the Manchester FHS transcribed about 82% of the damaged ones. Ancestry photographed them seperately

If the family were Cowans, I think I have found them as Cowens in 1861, in which case I have the wrong family, it is Connors I am after.

At this stage, I think I had better wait for the marriage certificate,so I know who the father is. What is the betting that the image I need will be one of the totally ruined ones

Thank you for everyone who has looked so far, I will put it on hold until the certificate arrives

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I now have the marriage certificate,so the family above is not the correct one

22nd July 1865 Catholic Parish Church, Manchester
John Gill age 20 bachelor, iron turner
48 Silver St, Hulme,
Father John Gill, driller
Annie Connor, age 19 spinster,
48 Silver St, Hulme
Father Daniel Connor, bricklayer

John signed, Annie made her mark
Witnesses James Mawdsley and the mark of Ellen Blackwell

I am going around in circles trying to find them earlier

It looks like John was a lodger in 1861, 9 Pit Street. Manchester, age 16 a turner of iron
This is no help as he is not with his family

I can't see Annie at all earlier. they both say they were born in Manchester on all censuses from 1871 to 1911. She is called Annie on all of them, apart from 1871 when her name is given as Elizabeth with Ann squeezed in after it. I think this is probably just a mistake made by the enumerator because the only child they have with them is Elizabeth age 3. On the record of Probate for John,she is called Ann

I have checked Silver Street, the marriage address on the censuses either side of the marriage, but I can't see any connection

If anyone can help, I will be eternally grateful

[kiterunner]

There is an Elizabeth Connor age 5 on the 1851 census daughter of Ann Connor, married age 28. Other children Catharine 7, James 3, Susannah 11 weeks. Just typing this in so I have the info to go and look for them in 1861 to see if I can find the father's name.

[kiterunner]

The 1861 census for that family doesn't really help to decide whether it could be her. Their surname is Connar in 1861 and the daughter is still Elizabeth, mother is still married but no husband around.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I have been looking for a Daniel Connor, bricklayer in all the censuses, but I can't see one

[Merry]

I wondered about the John Gill aged 6 in 1851 with parents John and Elizabeth where dad was a machinist (or was he a mechanic? - I've forgotten now!). The page was duplicated on Ancestry.

[Shona]

1861 census

Lodging House, 20 Quay Street, Salford

Annie Connor, 18, wool spinner, born Manchester

When I searched for this on Ancestry, the image that came up wasn't correct - no Annie Connor on the page. However, on FMP, the image corresponds to the search result.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I think I saw that one Merry, a mechanic if I remember correctly

I just found a baptism
name: Anne Connor
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 16 Apr 1848
baptism/christening place: St Patrick, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
birth date: 07 Apr 1848
father's name: Danniel Connor
mother's name: Jane Gilligan


Not Manchester and too young, but I am just recording it before I lose it again

[Shona]

1861 census

Lodging House, 20 Quay Street, Salford

Annie Connor, 18, wool spinner, born Manchester

When I searched for this on Ancestry, the image that came up wasn't correct - no Annie Connor on the page. However, on FMP, the image corresponds to the search result.

1861 Census
CONNOR, Annie
SALFORD, Lancashire
RG09 piece 2919 folio 69 page 39

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I saw that one Shona, I reported the image to Ancestry. On FMP the writing on the correct image is very neat and is 18 which makes her too old

[Shona]

I saw that one Shona, I reported the image to Ancestry. On FMP the writing on the correct image is very neat and is 18 which makes her too old

Assuming that the age is correct on the census record. Could this Annie have added a couple of years on to her age? Maybe 15 was transcribed as 18 by the enumerator.

What do others think?

[Merry]

What do others think?

I think I couldn't find her in 1851! (aged 5 or 8!!)

Erm, did Kiterunner mean Ann not Elizabeth in her earlier posts?

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I have been going round in circles with this all afternoon. Every time I find someone on one census, I can't find the same family on the next one. I can't think straight

[Shona]

Looking at the image again on FMP, whoever gave the information to the enumerator didn't know a lot about the lodgers! NK is written in for most residents as regards condition (ie, single, married, etc), including for Annie Connor. Not known is also recorded in the occupation column for most of the residents. It could be they weren't that sure about ages, either.

[kiterunner]

What do others think?

I think I couldn't find her in 1851! (aged 5 or 8!!)

Erm, did Kiterunner mean Ann not Elizabeth in her earlier posts?

No, I meant Elizabeth - I totally failed at looking for an Ann so I tried Elizabeth because Linda said that Annie was down as Elizabeth Ann on one of the censuses, although it was probably a mistake.

[kiterunner]

I don't think we are likely to find baptisms online because they will be Catholic ones, won't they? And I can't find Manchester Catholic baptisms anywhere.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

They are all Catholics which is why it is so difficult, they are mostly held by the churches. Idid manage to get a cd for St Wilfred's in Hulme where another branch of the family came from

[Shona]

There are two Ann Connor births in Manchester that may be the correct person.

- J/A/S 1845
- J/F/M 1847

I searched Ann (plus variants) Connor (plus variants), 1845-1847.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Thank you Shona, I had seen the 1847 one, if I could find her with a father Daniel in 1851, I would take a punt on it. Some of the 1851 census is missing of course which doesn't help

[vallee]

maybe right off track here but what about a Daniel Connor born abt 1822 Ireland in The County Lunatic Asylum Lancaster occupation Joiner in 1851

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=LANHO107_2272_2272-1094&fn=Daniel&ln=Connor&st=r&ssrc=&pid=13737636

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I saw him as well Vallee, it is just impossible to tie them all together

[vallee]

maybe he died just after she was born ? they dont always say deceased on the marriage certs when they should .

[Merry]

There's a Daniel Connor (Conner) labourer aged 20 on the 1841 census living in Bedale St, Hulme, probably son of Edmund and Mary and then this marriage:

Marriages Mar 1843
CONNOR Daniel Manchester 20 588 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
DALY Peter Manchester 20 588
DEALY Peter Manchester 20 588
FOX Bridget Manchester 20 588
JOHNSON Mary Manchester 20 588
LAMBERT Mary Manchester 20 588
MOONEY Michael Manchester 20 588
Shannon Catherine Manchester 20 588
Smith John Manchester 20 588

He married Mary Lambert (Lancs BMD) and it was either a reg office marriage or registrar attended. I'd guess at a Catholic marriage with all those other Irish names on the same page!

[Linda in Herriot Country]

That is true,

I have been digging around in the Manchester catholic records and as the marriage was at St Mary's Catholic parish church, the baptisms for the children on John and Annie are probably there as well. The records seem to be on film at the Lancashire archives in Preston.
As I live in Yorkshire, I don't think I am allowed to cross into Lancashire

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Thank you Merry, that looks promising, In my notes i had the marriage but only a long list of possible brides,

Grr, the St Wilfred's Hulme marriages on the cd only start from 1844

[Merry]

Grr, the St Wilfred's Hulme marriages on the cd only start from 1844

lol!!

[Linda in Herriot Country]

First child for that couple? St Wilfred's Hulme
30 Jun 1844 Baptised: 30 Jun 1844 Father: Daniel CONNOR Mother: Mary
LOMBARD Godfather: Michael POWER Godmother: Ann
LAMBERT Notes: Born June 30th
CONNOR Margaret Ann

I will see if there are any more

edit Oops child was CONNOR Margaret Ann

[Linda in Herriot Country]

It is slow going, but I have been through as far as 1851 and there are no other children to that marriage. The only mention of a Daniel Connor was in 1848 when he was god father.
They could have moved into a different parish of course

[Merry]

Hmmmm...!!

I had wondered if Daniel had died young

Deaths Mar 1845
CONNOR Daniel Manchester 20 611

but Lancs BMD tells me this was a baby (aged 0).

Looking on Lancs BMD 1845-1861 these two were the only ones around the age of the chap from the 1841 census:


Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1851
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
CONNOR Daniel..........30...Lancaster....Preston.......LA N/15/5

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1853
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
CONNOR Daniel..........30...Market Street..Manchester..MST/44/340

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Maybe the Market St one could be him, I have lots of marriage certs where they have neglected to say the father was dead

It is so annoying that some of the Hulme census is missing for 1851

There are three widowed Mary Connors of about the correct age on the 1861 census,so no help there

[Merry]

There's this family in Manchester in 1851:


Daniel Connel head m 38 bricklayer b Ireland
Ann Connel wife m 40 b Ireland
Mary Connel dau 12 b Manchester
Ann Connel dau 6 b Manchester
Charles Connel son 10m b Manchester

The census page does say Connel, so I looked fior a birth reg in 1851 for Charles to see what his surname was there, but there wan't a reg for Connor or Connel or anything else similar (at least I couldn't see one!)!

Too tired to look any more now :o

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Oh that looks very interesting Merry

Thank you for your help, I will look tomorrow at everything which has been posted tonight, my head is spinning as well

[kiterunner]

The census page does say Connel, so I looked fior a birth reg in 1851 for Charles to see what his surname was there, but there wan't a reg for Connor or Connel or anything else similar (at least I couldn't see one!)!



He would be born in 1850 if he is 10 months on the 1851 census. The nearest I can see is a Charles O'Connell Sep 1850 Manchester. Sub-district on Lancs BMD is Market Street, but it doesn't give mother's maiden name. :(

[kiterunner]

1861 census at 13 Sackville Street, Salford:
Daniel O'Connell Lodger Mar 59 Bricklayer Ireland, County Meath
Charles do Son 10 Lancashire Salford.

[kiterunner]

1841 census at Thorneley Brow, Market Street, Manchester:
Danl O'Connell 30 Bklayer I
Ann " 30 " I
John " 10 " I
James " 2 " Y
Mary " 1/2 " Y

[Merry]

Oh, that's a shame!!

I did mean 1850 and not 1851 for the birth reg - my maths isn't as bad as my typing!! That was also the first time I'd not searched the Os a well as the Cs, so typical there should be an O entry!!!

Anyway, at least they are positively eliminated ....Unless Annie's name was spelled incorrectly at her marriage!

[kiterunner]

Anyway, at least they are positively eliminated ....Unless Annie's name was spelled incorrectly at her marriage!

Oh, I thought they were probably the right family! I wonder whether her name is Connor on all her children's birth certs.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I am just having a quick look this morning, but am out all day.
It is son James born c 1879 my friend is descended from, but there were a couple of possible certs, so I bought the birth cert for Lilly Gill b 1880 Manchester as there could be no confusion over that child, I have just looked at it and she gives her name as Ann Gill formerly Connor. It was Ann who registered the birth and made her mark

[Merry]

Oh, I thought they were probably the right family! I wonder whether her name is Connor on all her children's birth certs.

lol!! Difficult one!

[kiterunner]

The 1911 census says she had 11 children, 5 living and 6 dead, so it would be a lot of birth certs to check! Shame that Lancs BMD doesn't show the mother's maiden name for those.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I have been out for most of the day and evening,so haven't been able to go through all of the information.
It is a shame that last family have been discounted, they looked good at first glance.

Thank you for all the work you did last night, I will have time to spend on it tomorrow, so will try to make some progress then

[kiterunner]

It is a shame that last family have been discounted, they looked good at first glance.



I still think they could be the right family, Linda, but we would need to prove it somehow.