View Full Version : Mary F.L. Greaves
How hard would it be to find anything about this lady of London, England, who witnessed a wedding on 19 Nov 1751 at (I think) St Martin in the Fields Church?
Date of birth u/k - guessing around the 1720's - really have no idea.
kiterunner
13-09-12, 12:09
Are you certain of the date, Jood? You wouldn't normally expect witnesses' names on a pre-1754 marriage. Do you have the names of the bride and groom, please?
Abraham GORRINGE (M).. M: 19 Nov 1751 F#: 178143 @
Rel:Mary F.L. GREAVES; London, England P#: 918
(no parents listed) O#: 32662
kiterunner
13-09-12, 12:17
FamilySearch says it is a marriage - Abraham Gorringe married Ann Lloyd 19 Nov 1751 at St George Mayfair, Westminster. It is also listed in the Non-Conformist Record Indexes under reference RG7-248, "Marriages and Baptisms from the May Fair Chapel Register performed according to the Rules of the Fleet, London from 1749 to 1753". The image would be available on www.bmdregisters.co.uk but you have to pay per view on there (or on The Genealogist but you have to have a sub.) But I will see whether there is an image or transcription anywhere else which might state what Mary F L Greaves had to do with it. Unlikely to be a marriage witness.
kiterunner
13-09-12, 12:21
The transcription book on ancestry just has Abraham Gorringe, & Ann Lloyd, of St Bridget's, Fleet Street. No mention of Mary.
OK - the family have been looking for Abraham Gorringes parents since 1911.
The Bendigo Library closed the other day for renovations and the family history section won't be available till 2014 :(
We're just looking to see where the local LDS church is.
That's why I decided to find out something about Mary Greaves - who she might have been. it might have been her married name, maybe she was a Gorringe before - I have no idea.
But thanks for looking Kate.
kiterunner
13-09-12, 12:29
I think that Mary F L Greaves (in connection with Abraham Gorringe's name) comes from something that someone has submitted to FamilySearch, but I can't see a way of finding out where they got her name from.
kiterunner
13-09-12, 12:31
I doubt that the image of the marriage entry on BMD Registers will have any more information on the marriage than the transcription does.
There is a tree on ancestry showing Abraham Gorringe's baptism as 11 Nov 1731, Westminster, parents John Goringe and Ann.
kiterunner
13-09-12, 12:33
Ah, and FamilySearch doesn't seem to treat Gorringe and Goringe as variants of each other, so you have to search for him as Goringe to find the baptism on there. They have Abraham Goringe baptised 11 Nov 1731 at St James, Westminster, parents John and Ann.
All I know is Abraham had a brother Richard - he may have had other siblings - but I have Richards Will and he mentions Abraham. Abraham didn't leave a Will - you found that out for me a while ago.
I just thought I'd throw in Mary's name and see who she was
Some parents of Abraham have been suggested - that was one of them (John & Ann), but not really enough proof.
Can only try Kate - thank you again.
I forgot to tell you - when Abraham's son Francis left for Canada - his name was spelt Goring, and to this day - that is how its spelt (in our family at least) all around the world - i.e Canada, US & Australia.
kiterunner
13-09-12, 12:52
Do you have the date and place of probate on Richard's will, please, Jood? And when and where he died?
(Edit - I've found another thread about him by googling and it seems he may have died at sea, about 1768-1770.)
kiterunner
13-09-12, 13:05
I can't find anything on Mary F L Greaves, by the way, nor Mary F L Gorringe, but it's difficult not knowing what the F and the L stood for! Or indeed whether they are mistranscribed!
Did you see the info on Abraham and Ann that I posted on the 4x thread re: Francis?
Hope I'm not missing something here, but did you see this reference to a Mary F.L. Greaves in 1757?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wingrove/igiuk3.htm
kiterunner
13-09-12, 15:25
I looked at that before, Janet, and got nowhere. It says Gabriel Wingrove married someone 7 Aug 1757, but they don't seem to know whom he married. But now you've reminded me about it, I've had another try, and found another entry which says he married Catherine Lloyd. So if that's right, Catherine may be a relative of Abraham's wife Ann, and Mary F L Greaves could be related to Ann and Catherine. But it would help if we could see how this person has fitted them all together!
kiterunner
13-09-12, 15:31
Googling for that Gabriel Wingrove / Catherine Lloyd marriage, it seems to have taken place at St George Hanover Square. I can't get the book with the transcription in to load though.
Update - managed to load it in another browser but it doesn't give the witnesses' names.
Sorry - I had to go to bed last night - and you wonderful people were all looking up for me - thanks so much. Will answer each one.
In 1768 or 1770 he willed all his goods and all that he possessed to his brother Abraham Goring of St. Martins in the fields, a bookseller, 1770, date of proof of Will by Abraham Goringe, the sole executor
Time line_
8th January 1768
Richard Gorringe signed his will (therefore he is alive!)
Appoints his brother Abraham Goringe, bookseller, as executor and leaves all to him.
20th August 1770
Abraham Gorringe appeared on to swear to adminiser the will. (therefore he is alive on this date but Richard is dead)
August 1776
Abraham died (Jood's records)
1st February 1780
Ann Gorringe, daughter of Abraham swears to administer Richard's will as well as that of her father. Richards will having been left unadministered by Abraham while he was alive.
_Therefore Richard died_ sometime between 8th January 1768 and about the beginning of August 1770. As he was a mariner he may have died at sea and there would not be any record of his burial.
Yes Shona, I have pulled that thread up again.
Janet, thanks for that - Kite & Janet maybe its something to do with the Lloyd side rather than Gorringe. Abraham's wife was Ann Lloyd, we do have a reference to her sister Sarah Lloyd who married James Crespel on 17 Jan 1768 at St Botolph Bishopsgate. Seems like no-one has found the parents of Sarah & Ann. It would appear that Catherine is another sister. Ann's name was recorded as Ann Loy somewhere, but a misspelling I should think.
Thanks girls for your great efforts.
managed to load it in another browser
Sorry, Kite, I should have figured that out and told you. It's happened to me before.
London Lives has the following:
1771 Sebastian and James Crespel, goldsmiths, Witcomb Street, St Martin's in the Field.
Goldsmiths and booksellers in the family, yet the Gorringe girls end up paupers with at least two passing away in the workhouse.
Yes, its very odd isn't it. The son Francis Goring went to Canada, did extremely well for himself and he did send money back to his sisters at least.
Something went wrong somewhere lol
There is a pub in Tooting in London called the Gorringe Park in which I used to enjoy a glass or two many, many moons ago. It recently shut, but is due to re-open. Nearby is Gorringe Park Primary School. So when I saw your posts, it sparked my interest...and some fond memories of a traditional London boozer.
Funnily enough I don't know why it was Gorringe originally - when Francis went to Canada, he became Francis Goring - and to this day Goring in the name used here. I don't even know if Gorringe was a mis transcription somewhere along the line. (we were given the doubtful information we were related to Sir Charles Goring in Sussex, but I doubt it with a name like Gorringe)
Oh - just found this.
James Crespel
His Heal records appear as working silversmiths, Whitcomb Street, Leicester Fields, from 1762 to 1773; and James Crespel alone in 1779. The mark which is clearly Sebastian (his presumed brother) and James Crespel must have been entered in the missing largeworkers' register somewhere about 1760. It seems highly probable that they may have learnt their trade in the establishment of Edward Wakelin, in view of the connection revealed by the ledgers of that firm (Garrard MMS, Victoria and Albert Museum). They first appear in the general workmen's ledger in 1769 as supplying plates and dishes, which seem to constitute their greatest output throughout From 1778 to 1806 a series of parallel ledgers survive kept by the Crespels and Wakelin and Taylor and their successors. These record the raw metal used issued by the Crespels and the wrought plate supplied back by them, annotated with the client's name for whom ordered, or the word "Shop", presumably for stock in Panton Street. In 1782 a definite financial connection between the Crespels and Wakelin and Taylor occurred, when the latter paid £380 for 'expenses, alterations and improvements done by them at the workshop no 25. Corner of Oxendon Street'; they further bought 'an annuity of £100 per Annum on both their lives and the survivor' for £1000 and lent them £1321.7s.3d. 'by their Joint Bond bearing 5% pr Annum with collateral security of all their Tools, Fixtures and Implements in Trade of all denominations'. It would seem therefore, that from this date, the Crespels were virtually owned by Wakelin and Taylor, and likely that all pieces bearing their mark went through the latters' hands. From 1788 the latters' ledger account is headed 'James Crespel', which may indicate Sebastian's death or retirement. The ledgers finish in October 1806 without any apparent successor to the business. James Crespel had at least four sons he apprenticed in the trade.
Thanks again - what does this mean "His Heal records" Heal?
Given the context, I reckon it's a record of the hallmarks they used to identify their work.
Just referring back to Msg 18 in part
Janet, thanks for that - Kite & Janet maybe its something to do with the Lloyd side rather than Gorringe. Abraham's wife was Ann Lloyd, we do have a reference to her sister Sarah Lloyd who married James Crespel on 17 Jan 1768 at St Botolph Bishopsgate. Seems like no-one has found the parents of Sarah & Ann. It would appear that Catherine is another sister. Ann's name was recorded as Ann Loy somewhere, but a misspelling I should think.
I've just been told that another spelling for Ann was De Loye - would that help in confirming that Sarah, Ann & Catherine are all of the one family?
You may have seen this before, but I thought it was very interesting concerning marriages in St George's Chapel. The information is taken from BMDregisters.co.uk.
So from this we can deduce that both Abraham and Ann were away from their home parishes and that they were of a professional background.
G7 is the collection of registers and notebooks of Clandestine Marriages and Baptisms in the Fleet Prison, King's Bench Prison, the Mint and the May Fair Chapel ranging from 1667-c1777.
Scope and content
Principally registers, 1667-c1777, and note books, 1682-1774, giving particulars of clandestine marriages and baptisms performed in the Fleet Prison, at the May Fair Chapel, at King's Bench Prison or within the Mint, as well as entries in the Fleet registers of other ceremonies performed at these places. This series records the marriages of a significant proportion of the population of London and surrounding areas up to 1754. The 'Report of the Commission into Marriage Law' of 1868 estimated that countrywide in the first half of the eighteenth century, a third of all marriages were actually clandestine. Of these, the Fleet registers in this series are the most significant source, containing an estimated 400,000 entries representing over 200,000 weddings.
With these RG7 records, it is important to remember that a marriage may be recorded in a number of registers - but differences may occur from incorrect copying. The notebook entries are likely to be more accurate than the entries copied into the registers.
Administrative / biographical background
In the 1740s, over half of all London weddings were held at the Fleet (over 6500 per year) with a further thousand conducted at the May Fair Chapel. By the late 17th century, provided that a couple exchanged vows and had some proof of this, then a marriage would be considered valid under English Common Law. Marriages by a form of ceremony conducted by an ordained clergyman, but without banns or licence, and generally not in a church or chapel, usually away from the parish of the bride or groom were termed clandestine marriages. Such ceremonies were often shrouded in secrecy as there were a variety of motives for requiring a clandestine marriage, the primary appeal being reasons of cost, while other reasons included the avoidance of the need to obtain parental consent, requiring a back dated ceremony to legitimise offspring or attempts to validate claims upon an inheritance or a Will.
Clandestine marriages began to grow in numbers from the middle of the seventeenth century. The authorities attempted to quell this growth by introducing three parliamentary acts between 1694 and 1696 which collectively regulated marriages, introduced marriage taxes and censured and suspended clergy found to be involved. These, however, only applied to marriage centres which came under the jurisdiction (or visitation) of the bishop of the diocese. These acts inadvertently gave a near monopoly to private marriage centres outside the bishop's visitation (e.g. prisons) and to clergymen (many of whom were prisoners) who had been dismissed or were in debt and who had nothing to lose by conducting clandestine, fee-paying marriages. In 1711, Parliament passed legislation which included an attempt to deal with the problem of such clandestine marriages being conducted in prisons. A clause was included in the act to counter the loss of revenue (from non-payment of stamp duties) caused by clandestine marriages. The clause continued the imposition of fines for any person in 'holy orders' conducting a marriage but also introduced the same fine for any prison keeper who permitted such a marriage at his prison. While this prevented the marriages being performed inside the prisons, it did not prevent them being conducted in other locations in the vicinity of the prisons: e.g. the Liberties (or Rules) of the Fleet, or the Mint (for King's Bench Prison). On 25 March 1754, all clandestine marriages were made illegal by Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act; although couples were still able to travel to other areas of the United Kingdom where the act did not apply: i.e. across the border into Scotland (e.g. Gretna Green), or to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
Fleet Prison was primarily a debtors prison and stood on the east bank of the Fleet River in what is now Farringdon Street, London. The marriages performed at the Fleet involved all classes from London and the surrounding counties, but mainly catered for artisans, farmers, labourers and craftsmen from the poorer parishes of London, soldiers (including Chelsea Pensioners), and particularly sailors. King's Bench Prison was located on the east side of Borough High Street in Southwark. As with the Fleet, the majority of prisoners were debtors. Relatively few marriages were performed in the Prison itself, and by the 1740s, those marriages which had been performed in the Mint began to be held at the Fleet. The King's Bench and the Mint, because of their location, tended to attract a high proportion of couples from Kent and Surrey. From the late 1720s, clandestine marriages commenced at May Fair, which eventually became only second to the Fleet in terms of notoriety for such marriages. Initially, May Fair marriages were performed at St George's Chapel, Curzon Street, Mayfair, near Hyde Park Corner then, from 1744, at a private dwelling house (the 'New' or 'Little Chapel') situated ten yards away from St George's Chapel. Whereas clandestine marriages performed at the Fleet and King's Bench prisons and surrounding areas tended to attract the working classes, the May Fair Chapel was used by professional classes and the aristocracy for marriages, including the Dukes of Cleveland and Hamilton, Lord Stanley, and Lord George Bentinck . The need for a public record of the marriages meant that they were recorded in registers and some were produced as evidence in court cases. The registers of the Fleet were kept, for the most part, by the ministers (or their clerks) who performed the ceremonies, by self-appointed register-keepers, by the landlords of some of the houses where the ceremonies took place, and by persons who appear to have set up record offices at a later date and made copies of registers in the possession of others.
It must be emphasised that the information in the Fleet documents (particularly those before 1714) should be treated with extreme caution as dates given can be unreliable and also people would request not to record their surnames, or would give false names to protect their real identity from a fear of discovery.
It must also be noted that Julian style calender was in use in England until 1752, when the Gregorian calendar that we are familiar with today came into use instead. According to the 'Old Style' the New Year began on March 25th (Ladies Day), and dates between January 1st and March 24th would be written as 1715/16 Feb 5th to indicate this.
Thanks Shona, it certainly gives a good insight into BDM's at that time.
When Ann Lloyd married Abraham Gorringe, the record says that she was from the parish of St Bridget's, Fleet Street.
On Ancestry, there is a record of William Loyd being baptised at St Bride's, Fleet Street, on 29 Dec 1730. Parents are William and Ann Loyd.
Also found a baptism for Ann Loyde on 5 Feb 1726 at St Andrew's, Holborn. Parents are William and Ann Loyde.
May be a lead. May be a total coincidence.
It's a good point - sounds feasible too. But our Ann DID have a sister called Sarah, and possibly another called Catherine ????
From the Old Bailey - 7 December 1763
Alexander Low was indicted for stealing one book, intitled, The travels of the Jesuits, &c. value, 2 s. and one ditto, called, The London complete songster, value, 6 d. the property of Abraham Goring , December 5.
Ann Goring
'I am wife to the prosecutor, he is a bookseller , and lives in May's Buildings. Last Monday, between three and four in the afternoon, the prisoner was looking at these books, and, as the window was open, he asked the price of two others, but we could not agree; he was going off, two of these volumes lay there five minutes before: I observed a book in his left-hand pocket, he was gone six or seven yards, I went and laid hold of him, and said, you thieving fellow, come back and give me the books out of your pocket; he had the two books, mentioned in the indictment, in his pockets; he insisted upon it, they were his own property, and talked of carrying me before a magistrate, the books produced, and deposed to.'
Prisoner's Defence.
'I was in liquor, how they came into my pocket, I know not.'
Guilty.
Thanks Shona, - had a little giggle at this I went and laid hold of him, and said, you thieving fellow, come back and give me the books out of your pocket; he had the two books, mentioned in the indictment
Plucky little thing wasn't she - or a good businesswoman lol
When I read her statement, I imagined the scene of her running out of the bookshop and nabbing the intoxicated miscreant and giggled, too. Isn't it wonderful to have her spoken words recorded?
I'll say - it puts life into the story lol
Hmm - this is intruiging.
26 June 1809 - Old Bailey Court Records:
JOHN BEADNELL was indicted for feloniously stealing on the 3rd of June , one ounce and fifteen penny weights of silver cuttings, value 9 s. the property of Robert Gerrard.
SECOND COUNT, the property of James Crespall.
The case was stated by Mr. Gurney.
JASPER CRESPALL Q. Are you in the employ of Robert Gerrard - A. Yes; and the prisoner was one of his journeymen .
Q. In consequence of any suspicion you had did you on the 3rd of June mark any silver that you delivered out to the prisoner - A. Yes, I did.
Q. What work was he to do - A. To finish a teapot; for that purpose I delivered him a piece of silver plate; I marked it with a diamond punch, in that part that was to be cut off; at six o'clock he left his work, then I looked in his apron, I found materially less cuttings than I expected, the piece that I had marked was not there; I went to the accompting house, where he then was being paid by my father, I went in and shut the door, and told him he had in his pocket what he had no right to; I told him it was not the first time; he said it was the first time, and then produced the silver cuttings, an ounce and fifteen pennyweights. The silver is the property of Mr. Gerrard; here is the marked piece; the cuttings are the produce of that day's work.
The prisoner said nothing in his defence; called three witnesses, who gave him a good character.
GUILTY , aged 40.
Transported for Seven Years.
Various sources suggest that James Crespel is either the father-in-law or brother-in-law of Robert Garrard.
I also found:
'James and Sebastian Crespel had worked many years for Wakelin and Taylor. James and Jasper Crespel both appear to be in positions of authority in the establishment of Robert Garrard.'
So the Crespell's are not just working for world-famous jewellers, but are related by marriage to Robert Garrard. It does make me wonder how Ann Abraham, nee Lloyd, and her family ended up living lives of such poverty.
This is from Google. If you read through the account, you can see the names James and Sebastion being mentioned as Garrard family names.
'The company that was to become Garrard was founded by George Wickes (1698–1761), who entered his mark in Goldsmiths' Hall in 1722. Wickes set up business in Threadneedle Street in the City of London in 1722; the company moved to Panton Street off Haymarket in central London in 1735 as a goldsmith and provider of jewellery and other luxury items to aristocratic patrons. Wickes was an accomplished silversmith known for his work in the rococo style, and gained the patronage of Frederick, Prince of Wales. Two apprentices of Wickes, John Parker and Edward Wakelin, purchased the company following Wickes’ retirement in 1760, replaced by John Wakelin and William Taylor in 1776. Following the death of William Taylor, Robert Garrard became a partner in the company in 1792. Garrard took sole control of the firm in 1802, with his sons Robert Garrard II, James and Sebastian succeeding him in running the company, trading as R., J., & S. Garrard (or Robert Garrard & Brothers) until James’ retirement in 1835, when the company became R & S Garrard. The company remained in the hands of the Garrard family until the death of Sebastian Henry Garrard, great-grandson of Robert Garrard senior, in 1946. The name Garrard & Company Ltd was registered in 1909, and the company moved to new premises in Albemarle Street in central London in 1911.
Sounds like the son in law of Abraham did exceedingly well.
Does Mary F.L. Greaves turn up in the Old Bailey Records - probably not :(
I was hoping to find out who and what Mary Greaves was - being a "rel" on the IGI like so
Abraham GORRINGE (M).. M: 19 Nov 1751 F#: 178143 @
Rel:Mary F.L. GREAVES; London, England P#: 918
(no parents listed) O#: 32662
and also what Janet kindly found.
Gabriel WINGROVE (M).................. M: 7 Aug 1757 F#: 178143 @
Rel: Mary F. L. GREAVES , London, England P#: 862
(no parents listed) O#: 30860
At least Abraham & Ann were shop owners and reasonably intelligent. Whether they made a success of the business, I don't know.
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