View Full Version : Who Do You Think You Are - Annie Lennox 5th Sep
kiterunner
05-09-12, 07:46
BBC1 this evening at 9 pm. Singer who used to be in Eurhythmics. From what I've heard, this episode will be focussing on Scottish research and going back quite a few generations.
Oh good- hope they come up with some different sources to explore.
Margaret in Burton
05-09-12, 07:55
I don't have any Scottish ancestry and don't like Annie Lennox's voice, but I'll still watch it.
I don't have any Scottish ancestry and don't like Annie Lennox's voice, but I'll still watch it.
Same here. I hope I'll learn something about Scottish research as I've barely done any!
Margaret in Burton
05-09-12, 21:05
Well I found that very interesting
Anyone else notice that when she was at Balmoral the Royal Standard was flying so The Queen was in residence?
kiterunner
05-09-12, 21:06
Episode Synopsis
Annie Lennox was born on Christmas Day 1954 in Aberdeen, an only child. She moved to London when she was 17. She wants to find out about the generations who came before her grandparents.
Annie started off in Aberdeen, where her grandparents lived. Her father was Thomas Lennox, and his mother Jean lived to her late 90's. Annie visited her Aunt Jean, her father's only sister, to find out what she knew about the family history. There was a photo of Annie's grandparents' wedding; her grandmother got married at 18. Her father (Annie's great-grandfather) was Charles Fraser Henderson and he died when Annie's grandmother was about 3.
Annie visited Aberdeen Central Library to do some research on the Scotland's People website. She found a birth record for Charles showing his father as James Henderson, a stoker on a steam vessel, and Jessie Henderson, M.S. Fraser. Annie also viewed the 1871 census which showed James, born in Aberdeenshire, Jessie age 24 born in Banff, and two sons, Charles and James jr.
ancestry transcription of 1871 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f4=jessie&f6=henderson&sx=&f1=&f2=&f22=&f10=&f11=&f16=&f20=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&f13__ftp=&f8=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=ja*s&f7=&gskw=&prox=1&db=1871scotland&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=5&h=2742060&recoff=)
Annie tried to find Jessie Fraser on the 1851 census but couldn't find her, so tried using the name Janet as Jessie was often a variant of Janet. She found a Janet Fraser age 3 in Banff with her mother Mary Fraser, pauper, widow, formerly horse-shoer's wife, and four other children - James 11 an Iron Founder Apprentice, Mary Ann 10, Isabella and Charles.
ancestry transcription of 1851 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f4=J*n*t&f6=&sx=&f1=Banffshire&f2=&f22=&f10=&f11=&f16=&f20=&rg_81004011__date=1848&rs_81004011__date=0&f13__ftp=&f8=&_8000C002=&_80008002=Mary&_80018002=&f7=&gskw=&prox=1&db=1851scotland&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=3268872&recoff=)
Annie visited St Andrew's Episcopal Church in Banff where she was shown two entries in the burial register - one for Charles Fraser, blacksmith, 28th Jan 1851, cause of death consumption, and one for Mary Rose or Fraser, buried in 1853.
Annie was also shown the Parochial Board Minutes from 1858 which mentioned that Janet Fraser age 10 was living with a Mrs Cruickshank in Turriff, but Mrs Cruickshank was going to send her back when she "had no further use for her".
Annie next visited the neighbouring parish of MacDuff where she was shown a baptism entry dated 9th Aug 1821 for Mary N D (= Natural Daughter) of James Rose, writer (i.e. solicitor), and Ann Stewart. She was also shown the record of the marriage of Mr James Rose and Miss Isabella Faulder,15th Dec 1821.
Annie went to look at a close off Carmelite Street in Banff similar to the one where Mary and her children lived, and the site round the corner on High Shaw where James Rose's house used to be. She was shown the 1851 census entry for James Rose, his wife Isabella, their three daughters Jane, Georgiana and Jemima and two servants. She was also shown the baptism records for James Rose, who was born 10th Jun 1794, and his younger sister Ann Rose born Feb 1796. There was a marriage record for Ann Rose and John Cruickshank, so it seems that Jessie's great-aunt Ann was the Mrs Cruickshank who looked after her after her mother's death.
Going back onto Scotland's People, Annie viewed the 1861 census entry showing Jessie living as a boarder in Aberdeen, age 13, working as a Flax Mill Worker. Annie visited Broadford Mill, where Jessie worked, and learned about the working conditions. She then viewed the 1871 census again, and then the 1881 census where James and Jessie had four sons. Then she was shown Jessie's death certificate - she died on the 22nd Nov 1885, cause of death Carcinoma Uterine (Annie read this out as "ulcerous"), with the age at death given as 35, although this should be about 37-8.
ancestry transcription of 1861 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f4=jessie&f6=fra*er&sx=&f1=Aberdeenshire&f2=&f22=&f10=&f11=&f16=&f20=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&f13__ftp=&f8=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&gskw=&prox=1&db=1861scotland&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=19&h=1002818&recoff=&fsk=CIAABDgADWUs&bsk=&pgoff=)
ancestry transcription of 1881 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1881Scotland&indiv=try&h=1981446)
Annie then looked into the family of her mother Dorothy Ferguson. Dorothy's parents were William and Dora Ferguson. William was a gamekeeper and Dora a dairy maid at Balmoral, where they met. Annie's Uncle Alastair, Aunt Biddy and Cousin Shirley showed her some old photographs and told her the story of how William once danced with the Queen (i.e. the lady known more recently as the Queen Mother) at the Balmoral Staff Ball. Annie had heard rumours that William was illegitimate, but Uncle Alastair denied this.
Annie visited Balmoral to see where her grandparents worked, and was shown their entries in the staff records from the Royal Archives in Windsor. William Ferguson was born in 1896 and started working at Balmoral in 1913, while Dora Jean Paton was born in 1902, started working there in 1924, and left to get married in 1929.
Annie then looked William's birth up on Scotland's People - he was born in Braemar, father George Ferguson and mother Sophia Ferguson M.S. Farquharson. The birth certificate showed their marriage date, which would have been when Sophia was about six months pregnant.
George Ferguson's baptism record showed that he was born 23 Feb 1852, the illegitimate son of William Ferguson and Isabella McHardy. Annie visited Braemar and was shown the Kirk Session Records, which showed that Isabella appeared before them in 1852 and stated that William Ferguson, a farm servant in the parish of Kettins, was the father of her son, then again in 1860 when she was pregnant with the child of one Thomas Russell, watchmaker, who she said had promised to marry her. She stated that the "guilt" between them had taken place at her mother's house in Tomintoul. Her daughter Jane was born illegitimate as the marriage to Thomas Russell never took place.
Isabella appeared before the Kirk Session again, asking for help with her son George's school fees but did not apply for money for herself.
Tomintoul turned out to be a farm in Braemar and Annie went to have a look at it. The 1881 - 1911 censuses show Isabella living on her own as a poultry keeper or poultry maid and then a pensioner. (Annie says that Isabella was "living here" in her old age when they visit the cottage at Tomintoul but it seems from those census entries that she was actually living at Corriemulzie by that time.) She died in 1913 at the age of 83, cause of death given as senile dementia.
ancestry transcription of 1881 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f4=isa*&f6=&sx=&f1=&f2=braemar&f22=&f10=&f11=&f16=&f20=&rg_81004011__date=1830&rs_81004011__date=5&f13__ftp=&f8=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&gskw=&prox=1&db=1881scotland&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=1&h=1695930&recoff=)
ancestry transcription of 1901 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=1901Scotland%2c&rank=0&=%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c% 2c%2c%2c&gsfn=isa*&gsln=Mchardy&sx=&gs1co=1%2cAll+Countries&gs1pl=1%2c+&year=&yearend=&sbo=0&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=2&h=895285&recoff=)
Olde Crone
05-09-12, 21:23
Oh, I absolutely loved this as my mother was an Aberdonian and her mother was born and bred in Banff. I have Fergussons and Farquarsons (same name actually) and Patons in my tree and I am now frantically searching my paperwork because I definbitely have reference to Tumintoul.
OC
Olde Crone
05-09-12, 21:33
I know we only got the very briefest glimpse of the death cert but I thought it said Carcinoma uterine?
OC
kiterunner
05-09-12, 21:43
I know we only got the very briefest glimpse of the death cert but I thought it said Carcinoma uterine?
OC
I thought the same, OC, but Annie read it out as "ulcerous" and the researcher didn't correct her! Maybe we can get a screenshot of it to check.
kiterunner
05-09-12, 21:54
I found it quite annoying how they didn't look at any marriage certificates! I assume they did check them at some point, otherwise they could have been tracing back the wrong people!
Olde Crone
05-09-12, 22:02
Doubly annoying Kate because Scottish marriage certs have both mother and father's names on, as you know.
Incidentally, how did they know which cottage at Tomintoul was hers?
OC
kiterunner
05-09-12, 22:03
I don't know whether the iPlayer shows less of the picture than the TV, but all I can see on the screenshot is "Carcinoma Uter". So it must be Uterine, not Ulcerous!
kiterunner
05-09-12, 22:25
I see that on the 1881 census, the Hendersons have a James Cruickshank boarding with them! (Links to ancestry's transcriptions of the census entries in my synopsis post #6 of this thread.)
kiterunner
05-09-12, 22:33
Doubly annoying Kate because Scottish marriage certs have both mother and father's names on, as you know.
Incidentally, how did they know which cottage at Tomintoul was hers?
OC
Judging by ancestry's transcriptions of the census entries, it gives an exact address (along the lines of 5 Corriemulzie).
maggie_4_7
06-09-12, 06:38
I haven't watched it yet shall do today, I'm really interested because of my Scottish family and I've done a lot of research in Scotland and in Scottish records over the last 3-4 years.
kiterunner
06-09-12, 07:24
Possible for Mrs Cruickshank on the 1861 census:
ancestry transcription of 1861 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f4=ann*&f6=cr*kshank*&sx=&f1=&f2=&f22=&f10=&f11=&f16=&f20=&rg_81004011__date=1796&rs_81004011__date=5&f13__ftp=&f8=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&gskw=&prox=1&db=1861scotland&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=7&h=2276512&recoff=)
maggie_4_7
06-09-12, 07:42
This is Isabelle with her daughter Jane Ann.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=1861Scotland%2c&pgt=punt&rank=1&gsfn=Isabell&gsln=Mchardy&=%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c&gsby=1830&gsb2co=3252%2cScotland&gsb2pl=5325%2cAberdeenshire&gsdy=&gsd2co=1%2cAll+Countries&gsd2pl=1%2c+&sbo=0&sbor=&srchb=r&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=4&h=2230514&recoff=
Which is the address Jane was born at.
Me, too.
When I started researching my Scottish family, I was surprised by the number of illegitimate ('natural') births compared to legitimate ('lawful'). Natural births appeared to be the norm. I discovered that in some parts of Scotland (south west and north east, where Annie's family lived), illegitimate birth was very common. It may be that the tradition of 'irregular' marriage was deeply rooted in these areas - people were deemed married if they declared it before two witnesses. Many years ago, one of my Scottish grannies told me that when her granny was young, your declaration of marriage wasn't accepted until you had sex and proof that the relationship had been consummated was a baby.
The Kirk hated all this. Reading through Kirk Session records, some are obsessed by sex - they wanted all the details. It didn't have much effect on my family and their neighbours, though! All those young male farm labourers housed together in bothies next to bothies housing all the young female farm labourers was asking for trouble.
On a general point, Scottish records contain much more information than English records. I've got records in which, in the case of remarriage, give details of the number of children from previous relationships. I was also helped in my research thanks to my mother having five middle names - all surnames from previous generations.
They packed a lot into the episode.
kiterunner
06-09-12, 08:19
I thought it showed up the problems with Scotland's People's census search quite nicely, how you can't put the birthplace in as a search field but have to know where the person you are looking for was living at the time.
Olde Crone
06-09-12, 08:42
I was a bit worried by the assumption that Mrs Cruikshank had gritted her teeth and come forward to do her Christian duty by her brother's illegitimate grandchild.
In England, under the old poor law rules, the parish authorities would always seek out near relatives, and then distant relatives, and more or less force them to take on a burden to the parish. I'm sure it would have been the same in Scotland particularly where the father was of ample means or had a standing in the community.
So I think Jessie may have been forced on Mrs Cruikshank and that might explain the horrible wording in the day books. Once Jessie was of an age to work in a factory, she was sent away from Mrs Cruikshank's house.
OC
In England, under the old poor law rules, the parish authorities would always seek out near relatives, and then distant relatives, and more or less force them to take on a burden to the parish. I'm sure it would have been the same in Scotland particularly where the father was of ample means or had a standing in the community.
OC
Before 1845, there were no poorhouses in Scotland. There was no systematic levying of poor rates. It was normal to raise money for the poor at the kirk door. Responsibilty for who received relief lay with the Kirk and heritors (lansowners). Those entitled to poor relief were people who couldn't work because of age and infirmity, this included orphaned children, but illegitimate children were often excluded. Was the reference to Mrs C having no use for the wee lass taken from Kirk Session records? If so, there is likely to have been an earlier entry in the minutes about her placement.
On another note, the Rose family of MacDuff were very well connected. William Rose was the factor for the Second Earl of Fife (the main landowner and MP) for about 30 years until 1795. The Earl was seldom in the area and left all his business dealings to Rose. William Rose had a large family. Given James Rose was a solicitor, I wonder if he was related to William Rose.
Olde Crone
06-09-12, 10:20
Another misconception (?) I have always laboured under it appears, is that "writer" referred to a Solicitor's clerk!
OC
Another misconception (?) I have always laboured under it appears, is that "writer" referred to a Solicitor's clerk!
OC
By the time of the 1851 census, James Rose had worked his way up to a 'solicitor practicing before the Sheriff Court of Banffshire'.
kiterunner
06-09-12, 10:52
Was the reference to Mrs C having no use for the wee lass taken from Kirk Session records? If so, there is likely to have been an earlier entry in the minutes about her placement.
It was from the Parochial Board Minutes (1858).
tenterfieldjulie
06-09-12, 11:11
Child being forced on an uncaring grandmother happened to a friend of mine 60 years ago. Her mother died, she was give to her grandmother, father remarried, grandmother dumped the poor little 2 year old on new couple, duty done. One very scarred child.
It was from the Parochial Board Minutes (1858).
Parochial boards liked to 'board out' orphans and abandoned children in the community, until they were of working age.
kiterunner
06-09-12, 12:23
I've gone back over the segment where they look at the Parochial Board Minutes (with Annie Lennox running her ungloved finger along the paper under each line as she read it out!) and this is the only entry they showed:
Janet Fraser
There was recd letters of date 29th April and 11th May from Mrs Cruickshank Turriff in reference to Janet Fraser whereupon the meeting direct the Inspector to write to Mrs Cruickshank to send back Janet Fraser when she has no further use for her.
The archivist stated that there was no further reference to Janet Fraser or Mrs Cruickshank in the minutes, although he didn't actually say whether there were any earlier references. I don't think there was any mention of the actual letters being available but later on Annie seemed to be saying that "no further use for her" were Mrs Cruickshank's words, whereas as far as I can see, they were the words of the Parochial Board members! We really don't know what Mrs Cruickshank said in the letters, do we?
kiterunner
06-09-12, 12:25
Lots of unseen footage, all about Annie's paternal grandfather Archibald Lennox and his wife Jean:
unseen footage (http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/13799)
With reference to Janet/Jessie being sent back when Mrs C had no further use for her, it begs the question: Where would she be sent back?
I wonder what happened to Janet's siblings after the death of Mary Fraser in 1853?
kiterunner
06-09-12, 13:36
On the 1861 census the eldest three are servants in various households and Charles is living in Banff (if I have found the right person!) with an aunt Isabella Dallas age 46 born Gelliemill, Banffshire (according to ancestry.) Isabella has children called Arthur 15, John 13, Louisa 11 and Mary 7. Looking at baptisms on FamilySearch, it looks as though Isabella's husband was also called Arthur, and Isabella's maiden name was Sellars, so I'm not sure how they are Charles's uncle and aunt. Of course ancestry may have mistranscribed relationship to head - will see if I can find it on FMP or FamilySearch to check.
possible with Dallas family (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f4=cha*s&f6=fra*er&sx=&f1=&f2=&f22=&f10=&f11=&f16=&f20=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&f13__ftp=ban*&f8=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&gskw=&prox=1&db=1861scotland&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=977074&recoff=)
kiterunner
06-09-12, 13:40
Ah, never mind - I think that was the wrong Charles! I've found another one now, living at Tomintoul with some Frasers and a Stuart, link coming in a minute... hmm, ancestry has him as Charles Stuart and his birthplace is Kirkmichael, so now I don't know which Charles is the right one! Also I just realised this is a different Tomintoul from the one where Isabella McHardy lived.
possible in Tomintoul (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1861Scotland&indiv=try&h=2092995)
kiterunner
06-09-12, 13:46
John Dallas got married in Ontario, Canada in 1877 and gives his mother's name as Isabella Stewart Sellar, and Jessie's mother's mother was Ann Stewart, so maybe that's where the connection is.
kiterunner
06-09-12, 13:55
Okay, found a public tree on ancestry which shows Isabella Stewart Sellar as born about 1815, Gelliemill, Banffshire, the daughter of Charles Stewart and Ann. Not sure where the surname Sellar comes from, though.
maggie_4_7
06-09-12, 13:55
With reference to Janet/Jessie being sent back when Mrs C had no further use for her, it begs the question: Where would she be sent back?
Well by the age 10 you could go to work in a mill which is what she probably did as she's on the census aged 13 working at a mill in Aberdeen.
maggie_4_7
06-09-12, 13:58
Ah, never mind - I think that was the wrong Charles! I've found another one now, living at Tomintoul with some Frasers and a Stuart, link coming in a minute... hmm, ancestry has him as Charles Stuart and his birthplace is Kirkmichael, so now I don't know which Charles is the right one! Also I just realised this is a different Tomintoul from the one where Isabella McHardy lived.
possible in Tomintoul (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1861Scotland&indiv=try&h=2092995)
Remember that there is a Tomintoul village/town but the farm was called 'Tomintoul' and in Braemar two different places I believe.
Edited to say: Tomintoul Croft not farm.
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/284156/photographs/braemar+tomintoul+farm/?&sort_typ=archnum&sort_ord=desc
John Dallas got married in Ontario, Canada in 1877 and gives his mother's name as Isabella Stewart Sellar, and Jessie's mother's mother was Ann Stewart, so maybe that's where the connection is.
Now I am confused...
The 1851 census has Janet Fraser, 3, daughter of Mary Fraser, pauper, widow.
But Janet, natural born daughter of James Rose, solicitor, and Ann Stewart.
kiterunner
06-09-12, 14:13
It was Mary (Jessie's mother) who was the natural born daughter of James Rose and Ann Stewart.
It was Mary (Jessie's mother) who was the natural born daughter of James Rose and Ann Stewart. I think I need a screen break!
1841 census - Banff
Water Path
James Rose, 45, solicitor
Isabella Rose, 35
Archibald Rose, 15
Robert Rose, 15
Isabella Rose, 10
Jane Rose, 5
Georgina Rose, 5
Jemima Rose, 3
Jessie Cogle, 25, FS
Elizabeth Cruickshank, 20, FS
Magt Riddoh, 15, FS
Old Market Place
Charles Fraser, 25, blacksmith
Marion Fraser, 20
James Fraser, 1
1847-1848 Post Office Directory - Banff
Archibald Rose, solicitor, 11 Bridge Street
James Rose, solicitor, 11 Bridge Street
Using Family Search [and census] the folllowing children of James Rose and Isabella Faulder are listed:
John Rose, born 20 September 1822
Archibald Young Rose, born 30 January 1824
Robert Faulder Rose, born 24 November 1825
William Rose, born 7 August 1827
Isabella Rose, born 18 March 1829
James Rose, born 28 September 1830
[Jane D Rose, born c1832]
James Rose, born 17 August 1833
Georgina McKenzie Rose, born 13 June 1835
Jemima Rose, born 26 January 1838
Therefore John Rose was born a month early or Isabella was pregnant when she married.
I just watched it and quite enjoyed the programme, though I found it frustrating how they virtually ignored some people on the tree, apparently rushing straight over them in order to investigate those who magically turn out to be the interesting individuals! I realise this is to keep us interested and because of time constraints, but maybe devoting a sentence ot two to those skipped over wouldn't be asking too much?
anne fraser
06-09-12, 19:59
I enjoyed that one too. I like Annie Lennox and at least she did not cry. I was suprised how quickly they found Jessie Fraser, perhaps they could look for William James Fraser as well.
I enjoyed it, although it made some fairly major leaps of faith ( assumptions).
Jessie/Janet for one - did we see any evidence to substantiate this?
Good though.
Oooh I wish :)
That I could have such thorough research on my lot who also have various surnames as middle names - gets so confusing as there seems to be a dearth of first names! So I've umpteen Alexanders and same of Marys all with different clans as middle names.
I agree with whoever said they found Scotlands People difficult - I've certainly found it so:rolleyes: And still can't find my 'real' grandfather's whereabouts although I know his name.
I'm a Shona - which is a Gaelic form of Janet. Jess and Jessie are both widely used as a diminutive for Janet in Scotland. I've seen the same person using the names Janet, Jean, Jane, Jess and Jessie in official records. As a comparison, would we question Betsy or Betty as a pet form of Elizabeth if the birth place and date tallied?
kiterunner
06-09-12, 21:45
I presume that they looked at her marriage certificate to confirm she was the right person, but didn't bother showing it in the programme.
Olde Crone
07-09-12, 21:40
On my Scottish side, my only Jessie was born and baptised Jessie. However, she sppears on one census as Janet. I know it is her because she's with the right husband and children. Her death is reported by her husband - who calls her Jean! Again, definitely the right person, the one born and baptised Jessie.
OC
Olde Crone
07-09-12, 22:51
Corriemulzie is a blob on the road about three miles from Tomintoul - once a hamlet, now deserted and not the same location as Tomintoul croft/farm.
I suppose they DID identify the correct place?
OC
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 06:58
At the end of the program the guy says Tomintoul refers to a farm in Braemar.
Tomintoul Farm.
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 07:08
Remember that there is a Tomintoul village/town but the farm was called 'Tomintoul' and in Braemar two different places I believe.
Edited to say: Tomintoul Croft not farm.
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/284156/photographs/braemar+tomintoul+farm/?&sort_typ=archnum&sort_ord=desc
This is the building they were standing outside at the end of the program one of the photos on this site is the exterior of that building I believe from recollection when I looked at it the other day.
Olde Crone
08-09-12, 08:42
Kate's post #14 gives the address of the cottage or farm in Tomintoul as 5 Corriemulzie - which isn't in Tomintoul nor is it Tomintoul Croft or Farm, which was just on the outskirts of Tomintoul village.
In other words, three different places are mentioned:
Tomintoul village
Tomintoul Croft/Farm
Corriemulzie.
Perhaps they called them all Tomintoul because they felt the difference wasn't important in the grand scheme of things.
OC
kiterunner
08-09-12, 09:07
The address I gave is only gleaned from ancestry's and FMP's (mis)transcriptions - I haven't looked at the actual images. They mostly say Corriemulgie but I assume this is supposed to be Corriemulzie.
Also I don't know what it says on the 1911 census as ancestry and FMP don't have a transcription of that one yet.
tenterfieldjulie
08-09-12, 10:23
Didn't someone else on WDYTA have an ancestor who came from Tomintoul?
Only just watched this and thoroughly enjoyed it - think I might even watch it again. I thought Annie Lennox was very warm and I thought a lot of her feelings were quite measured and similar to what many of us would have felt.
I think we have to assume that the trees are very well researched but that they just don't show it all - the researchers are likely to be as competent as the rest of us.
The Parochial records aren't available online are they? I have so many Scottish ancestors!
kiterunner
08-09-12, 11:22
If you mean the Parochial Board Minutes, then no, although there may be a few on various sites if you google,such as this one:
Search Dumfries Poor Board Minutes (http://www.dgcommunity.net/historicalindexes/poorboard.aspx)
The Old Parochial Registers (aka Parish Registers) are on SP.
Thanks Kate - I did mean the Parochial Board Minutes - I could have bought Monaco with the amount I've spent on SP:-)
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 11:50
The address I gave is only gleaned from ancestry's and FMP's (mis)transcriptions - I haven't looked at the actual images. They mostly say Corriemulgie but I assume this is supposed to be Corriemulzie.
Also I don't know what it says on the 1911 census as ancestry and FMP don't have a transcription of that one yet.
Just looked at the Scottish 1911 census to put us out of our misery but I don't think it helps much :)
Its says:-
Corriemulzie Stables and it is in the Parish of Braemar.
There are 3 households listed for these buildings they aren't numbered but the Schedule no's are
41
Jane Merton or Merston Head aged 48 no occupation
William A her son aged 26 Estate Carter
Bella Jane daughter aged 16 Assistant Dressmaker
42 Margaret McDonald Head aged 48 Private Means
43 Isabella McHardy Head and a Pensioner birthplace Braemar, Aberdeenshire.
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 11:52
Thanks Kate - I did mean the Parochial Board Minutes - I could have bought Monaco with the amount I've spent on SP:-)
:D :D
Me too or a small island in the Med.
I watched it twice because of some of the queries.
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 11:55
I have had a couple of women in my tree being admonished at the Kirk Sessions and the father's being named and sought for maintenance.
Might have a few more but only looked for those two because they didn't name the fathers on the baptisms.
I thought Annie Lennox was very warm and I thought a lot of her feelings were quite measured and similar to what many of us would have felt.
Yes, I thought so too. She does look a lot like my mother, which felt very odd!
I think we have to assume that the trees are very well researched but that they just don't show it all - the researchers are likely to be as competent as the rest of us.
I'm sure the tree is thoroughly researched, it's just I wish they wouldn't always show a results list comprising of just one of two entries when they do a search and it would be nice if they didn't always say "that must be him/her then" because there was only one match!
I wish there was a disclaimer at the end of the programme: "If you are thinking of researching your ancestors, remember it's not always this easy; if you get stuck, we suggest you join a helpful website such as Genealogists' Forum" :D
Olde Crone
08-09-12, 12:50
Well, I'm very surprised they didn't mention THIS on the programme - how interesting!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18904950
As I can't get the sound to play, I wonder was it Isabella who did the wallpapering, lol.
OC
(And at least I know where the croft was, not IN tomintoul at all, but on the Estate of Mar at Corriemulzie, another thing they forgot to mention)
OC
Nice one OC.
The audio says the family were called Downie/Downy etc (sp?), there 'were eight of them' and one was called Jessie Downie who was about 80 in the 1890s and was photographed outside. I only listened once with dau gabbling all the time, so sorry if i missed anything :o
Most of the wallpaper was 1900/10 ish.
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 13:09
I found that video the other day but didn't have time to watch it and promptly forgot about it.
They do say the Downie family.
I looked briefly on Ancestry and there's a Downie family at number 5 in 1901 and at number 3 in 1891 - I think they were the same people, but keep getting interupted! No elderly Jessie though??
Olde Crone
08-09-12, 13:18
I am getting so confused - Isabella McHardy was found 1881-1911 at Tomintoul croft/farm as a poultry keeper. But according to the BBC, Tomintoul Farm/croft, at Corriemulzie, was occupied by a family called Downie in 1891!
OC
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 13:21
Yep its getting more confusing to me too.
:confused:
Someone's got their wires crossed.
On the 1911 census though its called Corriemulzie Stables.
maggie_4_7
08-09-12, 14:34
I looked briefly on Ancestry and there's a Downie family at number 5 in 1901 and at number 3 in 1891 - I think they were the same people, but keep getting interupted! No elderly Jessie though??
Isabella according to Ancestry transcription on the link Kiterunner posted for the 1901 census lived at 5 Corriemulgie (5 Corriemulzie - probably a lower case z and someone got confused LOL)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=1901Scotland%2c&rank=0&=%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c% 2c%2c%2c&gsfn=isa*&gsln=Mchardy&sx=&gs1co=1%2cAll+Countries&gs1pl=1%2c+&year=&yearend=&sbo=0&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=2&h=895285&recoff=
Have we missed something and the Downie family are related to Isabella?
They don't look too big these crofts but perhaps more than one family lived there and it was a block although in the photos and on the program and in that video it looks like one small croft/cottage/farm whatever they call it set on its own rather than stables.
I didn't get to grips with the addresses from watching the program, but are we saying the building featured in WDYTYA? and in the clip about the newspaper wallpaper is one and the same building, yet in 1901 we have:
Name: Isabella McHardy
Age: 71
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Braemar, Aberdeenshire
Registration Number: 183
Registration district: Crathie and Braemar
Civil parish: Crathie and Braemar
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: 5 Corriemulgie
Occupation: Paultry Maid
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 44
Line: 4
Roll: CSSCT1901_65
and:
Name: William Downie
Age: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Braemar, Aberdeenshire
Registration Number: 183
Registration district: Crathie and Braemar
Civil parish: Crathie and Braemar
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: Tomintoul No 5
Occupation: Crofter
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 11
Line: 4
Roll: CSSCT1901_65
kiterunner
08-09-12, 17:42
Rewatching the visit to the cottage, the researcher says it is Tomintoul, where Isabella had her "guilt" with Russell and where she had her two children, and where she spent a great deal of her life, but it is Annie Lennox who says that Isabella was still living in that cottage on the censuses and when her (Annie's) grandfather was a child. She says "living here" when she looks at the censuses and later on, "so many decades living alone, up here" but the researcher or archivist doesn't correct her. But it seems Annie had got the wrong end of the stick and thought that Isabella lived in that cottage all her life when she only lived there (or near it?) when she was younger.
So, I shall go back to page 1 and correct my synopsis!
Quite interesting that they didn't correct her!
And n the subject of corrections or otherwise, when I watched the episode already armed with the info about the carcinoma on that death cert, I seemed to hear it was the researcher who said ulcerous before Annie did - she stumbled on the word and he said ulcerous and she then said it a fraction later.
Olde Crone
08-09-12, 19:11
Ah, great, I'm happy now, lol. The devil is in the detail as they say and possibly they didn't want to go into a hugely convoluted discussion explaining the hair splitting difference between Tomintoul Village, Corriemulzie and Tomintoul Croft. Or perhaps they just didn't realise there WAS a difference as the area is so remote and underpopulated.
I still can't believe they didn't say "And she lived in a cottage which is now a Scottish Heritage Site" or whatever it is - if that were my ancestor I'd be thrilled to know that. It's those little idiosyncratic details which bring our ancestors alive, surely.
OC
I'd love to know my lot lived in what is now a Heritage Site.
Their whole area is now owned by some bigwig pollie. Apparently he wanders arouns and plays the part of Lord Muck at local festivals...
My Isabella McHardy gave birth in 1802 so maybe a bit old to connect with this one..
maggie_4_7
09-09-12, 11:40
ahhhh right it's all Annie's fault :D
Now I understand.
HarrysMum
What is a bigwig pollie? A high ranking policeman?
tenterfieldjulie
09-09-12, 21:24
Important politician lol -- or should I say -- especially self-important politician -- usually we say we'd like to buy one at our price and sell them at their's ...
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.