How many James Grants

[Phoenix]

Do you reckon might have been born in Edinburgh in 1795?

My gut feeling is that you could probably count them on both fingers, and if you took in any satellite villages/towns probably use your toes as well.

If you then take into account that a birth date from the 1851 census might have been a tad unreliable, even if supported by a death date (to be found!) it seems perverse that every single Ancestry tree I find attaches the same parents (who similarly do not die) whose names are not replicated amongst the descendants.

You can tell I'm longing to slap a venerable line of Scottish ancestors onto this tree, can't you:d

[kiterunner]

"Both fingers???" :confused:

[kiterunner]

Searching for James Grant (+ surname variants) births in Edinburgh City between 1793 and 1797 on Scotland's People, it does only find one. Though if you extend the date range to 1791 to 1799, there are 5.

But you would certainly need some evidence to confirm that the 1 is the same James.

[Phoenix]

Two finger typist syndrome! Fingers of both hands I should have said.

[Phoenix]

Everyone has Nathaniel & Agnes as parents. James appears to only have had sons, but amongst five sons, you would have thought that one might have been Nathaniel, even if tucked away as a second name.

[kiterunner]

The one on SP does have Nathaniel and Agnes as parents and I messed about with the date range to narrow down when he was born - 1794.

Other children of Nathaniel Grant and Agnes Neil on FamilySearch: Elizabeth 1801, Archibald 1803, Charles 1804. I'll see if I can find anything to help with James - I'm assuming you are trying to find out whether he is the same James Grant who married Rebecca Chapman in 1820 in Hackney?

[kiterunner]

Well, for a start, SP has a will for a Nathaniel Grant, Esq, resided at Clunebeg, 7 Oct 1850. But we will need to do a bit of research to see if it is likely to be the same Nathaniel Grant!

[Phoenix]

That's him! (James, I mean!)

He seems to be a perfectly respectable bootmaker/cordwainer in the East End. His sons all had trades and the fact that his widow ended her days in the workhouse probably means she was senile, rather than poor.

The sons have a mixture of George, James, Joseph, Thomas and William as names. I've only found five so far, though there may have been infant deaths - there are suspiciously large intervals for births in that period.

[kiterunner]

Edinburgh Marriage Register:
GRANT, Nathaniel, writer in St Andrew p. and Agnes, College Kirk p., d. of William Neil, mason, 19 Nov 1792.

[kiterunner]

The Nathaniel whose will is on SP (1850) is probably not connected since the Edinburgh one doesn't seem to be an Esq.

[Phoenix]

There's a Nathaniel Grant in London, but he's the other side of London, moving in very different circles.

[kiterunner]

Hmmm, there is a Nathaniel Grant born Scotland in Hackney on the 1841 census with a Joshua and a Margaret both age 20, born out of county. Nathaniel is 55, a Traveller. Rather too young to be the right Nathaniel, though.

[kiterunner]

Nathaniel Grant buried 29 Sep 1848 at St John Clerkenwell, abode District of South Hackney, age 73. That age would fit better with him being James's father, wouldn't it?

[kiterunner]

Just throwing all this in in case it turns out to be of use:
Margaret Grant marries Thomas James Tuck 12 Jul 1842 at Hackney St John, full age, spinster, residence John Street, father Nathaniel Grant, gentleman, witnesses Nathl Grant, Elizabeth Stewart, Hannah Grant, and Josa Grant. Thomas James Tuck is a baker. Wondering if I can find them in 1851 to see where Margaret was born

[Phoenix]

This makes life more confusing than ever:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_197726-00456&fn=Margaret&ln=Grant&st=d&ssrc=&pid=7053977

[Phoenix]

Lol, snap!

[kiterunner]

On the 1851 census Margaret is 32 born Walworth Surrey. It doesn't look as though she had a son called Nathaniel either. Her mother's name was Hannah. Nathaniel and Hannah also had a son Nathaniel baptised 1815 and a son Joshua baptised 1820 (Margaret was baptised 1816). There is a Nathaniel Grant marriage to a Hannah Rigby 28 Aug 1811 in Brighton but we need to know whether he was a widower!

Hmm, this isn't really helping much, and I have to go out shopping now.

[kiterunner]

Trying to find a will for the Nathaniel who died in 1848 but no luck yet. Really getting off the computer now!

[Phoenix]

There's a lovely tree for this family, full of photos.

Nathaniel b 1781 & dying in Hackney.

[kiterunner]

That would make him too young to be James' father. I wonder if there is an apprenticeshp for James?

[Phoenix]

Given he's mid twenties when he marries, he probably did do an apprenticeship, but it might have been in Scotland, and it's a bit late for the IR records.

[kiterunner]

Returning to FamilySearch, they don't treat Agnes as a variant of Ann but they also have these births in Edinburgh with parents Nathaniel Grant and Ann(e) Neil:

George Laing Grant 19 Feb 1798
George Grant 13 Mar 1800
Henry Grant 27 Oct 1805
Charles Grant 2 Aug 1807
Edward Finlayson Grant 19 May 1809
Frederick Campbell Grant 15 Feb 1812

So the Edinburgh Nathaniel can't be the one who married Hannah Rigby in Brighton in 1811, if that marriage date is correct and if the dob for Frederick is correct.

[kiterunner]

Trying to find what happened to the rest of the Edinburgh Grants in case any of them ends up in London - Edward Finlayson Grant married Isabella Law Tory 7 Sep 1834 in Edinburgh. There's a possible death for him in England though - Barton upon Irwell, Lancashire, 1859, but I can't find an age at death.

[kiterunner]

Yes, on the 1851 census Edward F Grant is living at Green Lane, Barton upon Irwell, Lancashire, age 43, Surgeon (Faculty of Physicians and Surgeons Glasgow), born Scotland, wife Isabella L 44 born Scotland, son Cardross 6 born Scotland and daughter Isabella B 2 months born Barton upon Irwell. Doesn't really help one way or the other though perhaps higher social status than your James?

[JBee]

Don't think this helps here

- but when looking for parents of an individual in Scotland born pre 1855 I try and find the marriage or death after 1855 when civil registration came in which hopefully should give both the father's name and the mother's including maiden name.

[kiterunner]

That only works if they married or died in Scotland, though! And James married and died in England. :(

[kiterunner]

There are a couple of Nathl Grant burials in Midlothian between 1812 and 1841. Not sure whether looking at the images would help or not, though.

[Phoenix]

There are some records on Ancestry which suggest Nathaniel was a writer and possibly his father was a printer.

I suppose the only thing I could do is see if I could find a James Grant who remained in Scotland.

Nothing feels right about attributing Nathaniel & Agnes as parents of James, but short of a will, I can't see what proof is likely to be out there.

[kiterunner]

There are some records on Ancestry which suggest Nathaniel was a writer and possibly his father was a printer.

I suppose the only thing I could do is see if I could find a James Grant who remained in Scotland.

Nothing feels right about attributing Nathaniel & Agnes as parents of James, but short of a will, I can't see what proof is likely to be out there.

Yes, it says that Nathaniel was a writer on the marriage to Agnes. Do you think "writer" meant "clerk"?

The trouble is, it's possible that the James who was Nathaniel's son could have died young.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, if you look for the phrase Nathaniel Grant on the National Archives of Scotland catalogue search there are quite a few results that look to be the same Nathaniel as a lot of them mention him being a writer in Edinburgh. And one of the ones that says writer in Edinburgh is 1815, so he definitely isn't the same Nathaniel who was in London.

[Phoenix]

Yes - the people who wrote out wills, land documents, etc.

My guess is that "my" James wasn't baptised, or the records were destroyed in a fire etc etc.

[kiterunner]

My dictionary says writer could mean a clerk, but could also mean "an ordinary legal practitioner in a Scottish country town". So I'm wondering whether Nathaniel could have progressed from being a writer to being "Mr Nathaniel Grant, S.S.C." as in, for instance, a death notice from 1823 (Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine):
24th (Feb) At sea on board the Hon Company's ship Berwickshire, Dr George Grant, fourth son of Mr Nathaniel Grant S.S.C.

Nathaniel and Agnes did have a George (born 1800).

[kiterunner]

Ooooohhhh.... TNA Documents Online has this:

Will of Nathaniel Grant, Solicitor of the Supreme Courts of Scotland of Chelsea , Middlesex Date 11 March 1845

I wonder whether I'm putting two and two together and making about nineteen! But I'm having serious doubts about your James belonging to this family.

[kiterunner]

The Index to Death Duty Registers for 1845 has Grant, Nathaniel, Cheltenham, Wm N Grant, 36 Smith ??, Chelsea, L.

[kiterunner]

I found a book called "A History of the Society of Writers to Her Majesty's Signet" which includes this:

GRANT, JAMES 19th June 1818.
Apprentice to John Tweedie. Eldest son of Nathaniel Grant, S.S.C. Born 1790. Died March 1844, unmarried.

But this is from the "electronic edition" so not sure whether the dates will be accurate. Also I'm not sure what the first date signifies but must go and eat now. Nathaniel and Agnes's son James would be their eldest son, I think. So looking unlikely to be your James.

[Uncle John]

In this context writer means Writer to the Signet (a barrister, similar to a QC).

[Phoenix]

Wow!

Thank you, Kite! I bet 1818 was when that James Grant completed his apprenticeship.

I think the "died unmarried" does clinch the matter!

[Phoenix]

In this context writer means Writer to the Signet (a barrister, similar to a QC).

So not like the drudge in Bleak House, then!