View Full Version : HELP NEEDED! O'Neil Family Fencehouses, Houghton Le Spring.
[B][B]Advice needed on how I can find out what became of my dads mum![/B;(]
I'm researching my dads history. My dad Edward O'Neil was born at No 10 Cement Street,FenceHouses, Houghton le Spring in October 1922. His mother Frances O'Neil was born in 1893 at the same address and to my knowledge my dad was an only child.
Frances dads name was James O'Neil a coal miner and her mum was Margaret Ann O'Neil (maiden name: Pattison)
Frances brothers were Roderick, Thomas, Harry and William. Sisters were Catherine and Theresa all living at 10 Clements St according to the 1911 census.
My dads mum Frances born 28 Aug 1893, I believe may have died when my dad was young (approx 14/15 yrs old) and was bought up by his uncle 'Roderick' .(apparently came home from work to be told his mum had died) I cannot substantiate her death!
I am unable to establish the cause of death of my dad’s mum Frances as it does not appear on any records.
Hope someone can advise/Help
Rgds
Terry..
So you were thinking Frances was working from the same address at the time she died? Houghton le Spring was in the district of the same name until 1938 and then Durham Northern, but as you said, there doesn't seem to be an obvious registration.
Have you tried researching the electoral rolls for the address to see if Frances is listed and when she vanished. Is there any chance she was married by the time she died?
Olde Crone
25-08-12, 21:41
Sounds a bit of a fishy tale to me, why didn't he go to the funeral if she had died?
There is a marriage in 1935 in the Durham area, which would have meant your Dad was about 13 at the time. Maybe she married "out" and her family disowned her?
OC
I couldn't see anything obvious.
There's 2 possible marriages in Durham
Dec 1927 to Edward Morgan in Darlington 10a 61
Sep1939 to Stephen Mcnaughton in Durham Co 10a 345
or one in 1935 in Manchester to Eric Moss - if she ran off.
There's 2 possible deaths
Jun 1945 Frances O'Neill born c1889 died in Manchester
Mar 1951 Frances E O'Neill age 51 - died in Durham West
Mar 1957 Frances E Moss age 75 - died in Manchester 10e 427
I noted this marriage:
Q3 1939 Durham Northern Vol 10a, Page 1715
Frances O'Neil to Ralph King, Ralph
and this death
Q1 1942 Durham Northern Vol 10a, Page 784
Frances King age 47
but having googled a bit I see someone else pointed out the same entries on Rootsweb last year and you said:
I have also found the details you have given about 6 months ago. I have the marriage certificate and will look at following this lead.
Thanks
But I wondered if you did mean you had the marriage cert, as I would have thought you would know if it was your Frances or not from the father's details, if nothing else? Anyway, did this come to nothing?
Margaret in Burton
25-08-12, 21:46
Maybe she didn't die at all and just left home.
I have a case of this in my own distant family, the descendants say she died but cannot produce a death. I know she went on to produce another family with another man and am in contact with the granddaughter of that union who has certs to prove it which I have copies of.
Olde Crone
25-08-12, 21:48
That's the marriage I found as well - read my own writing as 1935 instead of 1939.
OC
Dec 1927 to Edward Morgan in Darlington 10a 61
This one is Frances A O'Neill and may well be this lady:
Births Sep 1892
O'Neill Frances Alice Darlington 10a 26
Sep1939 to Stephen Mcnaughton in Durham Co 10a 345
and ths one is Frances I O'Neill and may well be this one:
Births Dec 1918
O'Neill Frances I O'Neill Stockton 10a 89
Olde Crone
25-08-12, 22:12
The O'Neill/McNaughten marriage has another name for Frances, so that Frances was twice married - seems unlikely.
OC
Will ask at the archives but don't think they'll be able to help as I think she may be going under another surname.
Did wonder if she met up with Edward's father and the family disapproved or met someone new but never married them just took their name and or even just emigrated.
I had something similar in my tree - found the son and mother but she'd not married the father as she was already married. He disappeared before the 1911 census never to be seen again but can't find a death for him. The son reckoned he'd left when he was a toddler and then when he was 9 but census said his mother was still married but a widow 5 years later!!??
Isn't anyone in the family you can ask - stories handed down - seems as though saying his mother had died was to stop awkward questions but he was old enough to know something wasn't right surely.
Olde Crone
26-08-12, 07:31
On reflection, if she did indeed marry you would think it would be out of area because otherwise there was a risk that he might bump into his dead mother in the street!
Asylum? Prison?
OC
I still think the electoral rolls should be the first port of call, otherwise you may waste time looking for an event before it happened.
If her son was younger I would accept the family saying she had died when something else had happened (prison, gone off etc etc), but surely a boy in his mid-teens would expect to go to a funeral if told his mother had died?
Of course I guess it's possible he also knew what happened to her (or at least that she didn't die) but found it 'easier' to explain things this way. (and then didn't want to take about it any more, because he knew he wasn't speaking the truth).
Sounds a bit of a fishy tale to me, why didn't he go to the funeral if she had died?
There is a marriage in 1935 in the Durham area, which would have meant your Dad was about 13 at the time. Maybe she married "out" and her family disowned her?
OC
My dad has passed on so cannot ask if he went to the funeral. My dad never ever spoke about his family and I never asked. He was a very private man and the death of his mum (Frances) came from my mum (my dad told my mum)
May I take this opportunity to thank everyone for their help and advice. I am now back home and have looked at the paperwork which I obtained some 6 months ago.
Firstly: Frances O'Neil's Birth Cert - Born on 28 August 1893 @10 Cement St, Dubmire, Newbottle, (Houghton Le Spring). Farther, James O'Neil (Coalminer). Mother, Margaret Ann (formally Patterson).
Secondly, Marriage Cert: Married on 5 August 1939-Frances O'Neil (age 40) Farther James O'Neil too Ralph King (age 33) a Coalminer/Hewer his farther John King. Married in the presence of J.King & E Wear?. No mention of J O'neil being a witness.
Thirdly, Death Cert: Frances King died 16 Feb 1942 aged 47
Could Frances O'Neil have become Frances King??? can I prove the validity of my findings? Ages don't seem to tally up, but I have been told that people often lied about ages especially as Ralph King was only 33 when they married.
How do I go about checking the Electorial Rolls?.
Rgds
Terry..
Olde Crone
26-08-12, 16:52
Terry
I really am very puzzled.
in your opening post you stated that your dad was told his mother had died but that you could not find a death for her.
But now you say you have her marriage cert and her death cert. I'm not sure what your query is?
OC
Have you looked to see if there were any children of the marriage to Ralph King?
It could well be that they ran off and got married and just asked two locals to be the witnesses.
What were the addresses given on the marriage certificate - the electors roll should be held at the records office covering the place of residence. If its Houghton then it'd be the Durham records office.
Ages can be out - I got a death last week when the daughter registered her mother's death and made her younger by 17 years!!! lol
Terry
I really am very puzzled.
in your opening post you stated that your dad was told his mother had died but that you could not find a death for her.
But now you say you have her marriage cert and her death cert. I'm not sure what your query is?
OC
I cannot find a death cert for Frances O'Neil so I considered the possibility, as many on here have, that she was disowned by her family for some reason, went away and my dad was told she had died, or as 'Merry' said in an earlier post, he just made this story up as he did not want to discuss his family to my mum whilst he was courting her.
So I researched the possibility that Frances got married to someone, leaving my dad with his uncle (Roderick). Hence the finding of Frances King (nee Frances O'Neil). This is where I'm at! Is there any way of proving without doubt that Frances King is my dads mum?
Rgds
Terry..
Olde Crone
26-08-12, 17:57
Can you find another Frances O'Neil with a father called James? What were their addresses on the marriage cert? I think it is very likely indeed that this is your Frances.
As your father would have been 17 when this marriage took place I'm not sure why his Uncle Roderick "brought him up". I wonder if Frances left before 1939 to live with Ralph King and they could not marry until 1939 for some reason (Mr King's wife still alive!). I wonder also if there was a religious difference which incensed the family.
OC
Have you looked to see if there were any children of the marriage to Ralph King?
It could well be that they ran off and got married and just asked two locals to be the witnesses.
What were the addresses given on the marriage certificate - the electors roll should be held at the records office covering the place of residence. If its Houghton then it'd be the Durham records office.
Ages can be out - I got a death last week when the daughter registered her mother's death and made her younger by 17 years!!! lol
Hi, Address on marriage Cert:
Ralph King = 5 Green Ave, Ni------ Estate, Philadelphia. (having real difficulty reading the address, not sure if it's Green Ave cannot read the Estate name but Philadelphia is correct)
Frances O'Neil = Poplar Ave, Villa Estate, Houghton Le Spring. (looks like Poplar Ave)
Can you find another Frances O'Neil with a father called Joseph? What were their addresses on the marriage cert? I think it is very likely indeed that this is your Frances.
As your father would have been 17 when this marriage took place I'm not sure why his Uncle Roderick "brought him up". I wonder if Frances left before 1939 to live with Ralph King and they could not marry until 1939 for some reason (Mr King's wife still alive!). I wonder also if there was a religious difference which incensed the family.
OC
Hi OC, please see my 'Quote' to JBee for marriage addresses.
Thanks! Terry..
maggie_4_7
26-08-12, 18:12
Can you find another Frances O'Neil with a father called Joseph? What were their addresses on the marriage cert? I think it is very likely indeed that this is your Frances.
=
OC
I thought Frances' father's name was James :confused:
I thought Frances' father's name was James :confused:
OC has edited her original post!
I would think it extremely likely that is your Frances marrying Mr King. Her age at death is only one year out and I'm not at all surprised that she lost a few years whe they married, especially as she was older than Ralph.
Not sure why you would think James O'Neil would/should have been a witness?
For anyone else who, like me, thought Philadelphia was in America - It's not, it's in Houghton le Spring!! lol
OC has edited her original post!
I would think it extremely likely that is your Frances marrying Mr King. Her age at death is only one year out and I'm not at all surprised that she lost a few years whe they married, especially as she was older than Ralph.
Not sure why you would think James O'Neil would/should have been a witness?
For anyone else who, like me, thought Philadelphia was in America - It's not, it's in Houghton le Spring!! lol
I also thought Philadelphia was in USA! looks very much like this (Frances King) could be my gran. I'll take a look on the 'King' side of the tree to see if I can find any surviving relatives.
Thanks! Terry..
PS Has anyone got any pictures of Fencehouses??
I'll take a look on the 'King' side of the tree to see if I can find any surviving relatives.
Do you mean you already have some Kings on your tree?
1911 census, Ralph King aged 5, b Bishop Wearmouth Durham, son of John (coal miner) and Sarah King at 15 George St, Houghton le Spring.
Name: Ralph King
Birth Date: abt 1906
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1968
Age at Death: 62
Registration district: Durham Eastern
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 1a
Page: 357
Olde Crone
26-08-12, 20:12
If you google, you will find a few images of Fencehouses.
OC
Do you mean you already have some Kings on your tree?
No! I don't but they maybe in the future.
Thirdly, Death Cert: Frances King died 16 Feb 1942 aged 47
I presume the rest of the information on this certificate fits with known facts? It might be useful to check the electoral rolls for the death address too, or the home address if listed if she died in hospital.
I noticed there's a possible remarriage for Ralph in 1943.
I presume the rest of the information on this certificate fits with known facts? It might be useful to check the electoral rolls for the death address too, or the home address if listed if she died in hospital.
I noticed there's a possible remarriage for Ralph in 1943.
Frances Kings died at 1 Ryhope St, New Town, Houghton Le Spring. Her husband Ralph has a recorded residence of 5 Poplar Ave, Villa Est, Houghton Le Spring on the death cert. 5 Poplar Ave was the address recorded for the residence of Frances on their marriage cert. I consider that both Frances and Ralph lived at Poplar Ave when they wedded and she died at someone's house with what I think was a heart attack.
Perhaps the commotion surrounding her death that your father remembered was correct then? Just that she wasn't involved in his upbringing for a few years before that (and possibly from an earlier date than she married Ralph)
Perhaps the commotion surrounding her death that your father remembered was correct then? Just that she wasn't involved in his upbringing for a few years before that (and possibly from an earlier date than she married Ralph)
You may be right! My mum for as long as I can remember said my dad was an orphan. He lived with his uncle as his mum died when he was young. This was partially true, I believe at some point he lived with his uncle before joining the Palestine Police in the Late 40's, but I am also semi convinced that his mum did not die at this stage and left.
The commotion my dad allegedly came home to and being told his mum had died does not ring true. I thing this was just a tale about his mum had died at that point.
Rgds
Terry..
The commotion my dad allegedly came home to and being told his mum had died does not ring true.
I was imagining that bit happening in 1942, when your dad was 20 - perhaps the work bit was him coming home from work and finding the commotion, not her dying at work. Then he could have gone to her funeral, whereas there would have to be a lot of excuses made if they pretended she had died when he was 14 or so.
PS Has anyone got any pictures of Fencehouses??
There are a few old pics here:
http://www.east-durham.co.uk/varioustowns/pages/thumbnail/thumbnailpage5.html
Muggins in Sussex
27-08-12, 18:36
This is a lovely site, too - and includes photos of the colliery - although I couldn't see any of Fencehouses.
http://www.houghtonlespring.org.uk/index.htm
There are a few old pics here:
http://www.east-durham.co.uk/varioustowns/pages/thumbnail/thumbnailpage5.html
Many thanks! Some nice images.
Rgds
Terry..
Olde Crone
27-08-12, 20:27
Of course, this is just wild guessing but I wonder if he was (like everyone of that era) desperately embarrassed and humiliated because he was illegitimate and THEN his mother clears off and goes to live with a man and leaves him behind with his (horrible?????) uncle. So to him, his mother was "dead" when she left.
OC
This is a lovely site, too - and includes photos of the colliery - although I couldn't see any of Fencehouses.
http://www.houghtonlespring.org.uk/index.htm
Many thanks for the links!. I have done a Google Image search for Fencehouses and have seen some good images. However what I'm looking for is an image of Cement St, ideally with No 10 in view. A tall order I'm sure but you never know someone may have an old photo somewhere that they would kindly scan for me. I wish I had only talked to my dad more regarding his time at Houghton Le Spring. He was proud of being a Geordie!
Thanks! Rgds Terry..:)
Of course, this is just wild guessing but I wonder if he was (like everyone of that era) desperately embarrassed and humiliated because he was illegitimate and THEN his mother clears off and goes to live with a man and leaves him behind with his (horrible?????) uncle. So to him, his mother was "dead" when she left.
OC
I think you may be spot on!
On my dad and mum's marriage cert (5 Jan 1952) he states his dad as 'Roderick' his mums brother. I believe my dad claimed Roderick as his dad to save embarrassment.
Rgds Terry..
The road doesn't seem to exist with that name. Do you know if the name has been changed?
Olde Crone
27-08-12, 21:41
Merry
there is a Cement St and a Cement Row (or there was) but the address isn't actually Fencehouses, it's...um...something else!
OC
Olde Crone
27-08-12, 21:52
Dubmire!
OC
lol - they are all so close together!! I still can't find anything called Cement .....
JohnJBloomfield
29-08-12, 17:17
You should post on this facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/houghtonheritage/
The guy that runs it Paul Lanagan does a lot of history of Houghton stuff, and there are a good thousand members so maybe someone can give you alead on the addresses and photos you want if nothing else
Newbottle?
Bankhead?
My dads Birth Cert says: 10 Cement St, Dubmire,Newbottle Rd
my dads mum Frances Birth Cert says: 10 Cement Row, Dubmire,Newbottle Rd.
:rolleyes:
You should post on this facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/houghtonheritage/
The guy that runs it Paul Lanagan does a lot of history of Houghton stuff, and there are a good thousand members so maybe someone can give you alead on the addresses and photos you want if nothing else
Will contact Paul if I need to. Bought his book which contains some very good stuff.
Thanks
Terry..
Olde Crone
29-08-12, 18:54
Merry
There appears to have been a Cement ROAD, Bank Head, Dubmires, in 1911 (from googling)
OC
kiterunner
29-08-12, 19:17
The 1911 census does have it as Cement St., but ancestry has mistranscribed it as Ament St or Aments St on the enumerator summary books. They have transcribed it as Cement Street, Bank Head, on the actual household pages. There is an O'Neil family at no 10: James 48, Magaret Ann 47, Roderick James 19, Frances 17, Catherine 15, Thomas 13, Harry 10, Threasa 7, and William Edward 5, plus a boarder Christopher Pattison 36. Not sure whether this has already been posted on this thread, but just to save finding it all again if it hasn't!
It's on the 1911 census OC, but I was trying to establish if we could get a current photo of the street if we knew what it's called now. Or maybe the buildings have been destroyed/road remodelled.
Not sure whether this has already been posted on this thread, but just to save finding it all again if it hasn't!
It hadn't because Terry has that info already! (it's in the initial post!)
kiterunner
29-08-12, 19:23
Oh yes, it says Clements St in the bit about the census in that post, which is why I didn't spot it looking for Cement!
It's on the 1911 census OC, but I was trying to establish if we could get a current photo of the street if we knew what it's called now. Or maybe the buildings have been destroyed/road remodelled.
Merry, The area was redeveloped I think in the 50's. I visited the area last year,talked to many of the residents in the area at the local British Legion Club. Very friendly bunch who made both my wife and I very welcome.
I would try the local library for photos
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1876
The 1911 census does have it as Cement St., but ancestry has mistranscribed it as Ament St or Aments St on the enumerator summary books. They have transcribed it as Cement Street, Bank Head, on the actual household pages. There is an O'Neil family at no 10: James 48, Magaret Ann 47, Roderick James 19, Frances 17, Catherine 15, Thomas 13, Harry 10, Threasa 7, and William Edward 5, plus a boarder Christopher Pattison 36. Not sure whether this has already been posted on this thread, but just to save finding it all again if it hasn't!
Hi Kiterunner, Yes these are all of my relations. There is also a family at No 8 named O'Neil! Could be related?
Christopher Patterson I believe to be a relation of Margaret Ann, nee Patterson.
There is also a family at No 8 named O'Neil! Could be related?
A very quick look reveals James at number 8 seems to be the son of John b abt 1859 in Longbenton (living at 7 Britannia Terrace Fence Houses Co Durham in 1911), who is the brother of James, head of your household at number 10. John and James are the sons of Roderick and Margaret O'Neil who were both born in Ireland.
I can add more detail if you need it and the above does need checking, because I am watching TV at the same time and only looked VERY briefly! lol
Roderick O'Neil was b abt 1826 in Ireland (1871 census)
In 1861 Roderick is listed as Rodger. This is helpful as it ties in with some 1851 and 1841 Irish census extracts recording a Roddy/Roger O'Neil with his parents (James and Ann nee Connor) and siblings. Hopefully this is the same person. (I think you would need some further piece of evidence before taking this as the right family for certain)!!
Hope you can see this!
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=48489&iid=nirelandcensus-000332_94&fn=Roddy&ln=ONeill&st=d&ssrc=&pid=24836
If not I can type it up or send you a copy of the image if you send me a personal message with your email address.
This looks like Roderick/Roger's death:
Deaths Dec 1875
O'NEIL Roger 47 Houghton 10a 255
Having said all that, do you have the marriage cert for James and Margaret to confirm James's father's name? :D
Having said all that, do you have the marriage cert for James and Margaret to confirm James's father's name? :D
No I don't have the marriage cert. Some fascinating discoveries you've made. I initially thought Roderick @ Brittania Terrace was the uncle whom my dad lived with and the place where my dad was born. Later research uncovered O'Neil's at Cement St and never new there was a link to the O'Neil's in BrittaniaTterrace. This is all down to my basic knowledge and lack of experience of Genealogy.
I'll take a close look at what you have written and potentially order some cert's. Thanks again to your good self and other contributors to my post, the kindness is overwhelming.
Kind regards Terry..
Can I do an Electoral Reg search On-line for 10 Cement St, as I can only use 1911 census to check occupants of the household, I cannot establish when Frances went AWOL. I would like to also do her last known address of 5 Poplar Ave.
I don't know offhand if any sites have this areas e-rolls online, but others who have family history in this area may know.
Otherwise, you would be best off contacting the local library who may either have the electoral rolls themselves or should be able to tell you where they are:
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1876
Durham Lady
01-09-12, 08:24
I've just seen this thread about my home area, too late to add anything helpful :(
One of my sister's was born at Newbottle and I was born a couple of miles from there.
E-Rolls will/should be at Durham
http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk
but it's worth enquiring at Sunderland Library as they took over the administration for the area after 1974 when Houghton-Le-Spring District was taken out of County Durham and put into the newly formed Tyne And Wear :(
http://www.sunderland-learnersfirst.org.uk
I've yet to find any E-Rolls for the area online :(
I don't know offhand if any sites have this areas e-rolls online, but others who have family history in this area may know.
Otherwise, you would be best off contacting the local library who may either have the electoral rolls themselves or should be able to tell you where they are:
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1876
Thanks Merry. I visited this place last year when I was doing my initial search. I'll give them a ring Monday along with Durham's record office mentioned by 'Durham Lady.
Rgds
Terry..
Hi,
Merry Christmas!
Not been here for a while but still researching my dads history. Following advice from here I have done some additional research on my dads mum. I now believe Frances (dads mum) was married in the late thirties and died 1942. Her name became Frances KIng (nee O'Neil). I have her marriage certificate, her spouse was Ralph King.
What I'm looking for now is any relatives on the Kings' side to see if anyone can shed any light on my dads mum. Maybe others know of her plight. What would the best way to tackle this?
Unfortunately I lost my mum on 4th January 2014 I was with her when she died and miss her dearly as I do my dad. I know the history of my mum but my dads is something I need to conquer. Any advice/ help would be most welcome.
Kind regards
Terry..
Hi Terry,
Welcome back!
I've just read back through this thread and noticed I'd posted some basic details on Ralph King:
1911 census, Ralph King aged 5, b Bishop Wearmouth Durham, son of John (coal miner) and Sarah King at 15 George St, Houghton le Spring.
Name: Ralph King
Birth Date: abt 1906
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1968
Age at Death: 62
Registration district: Durham Eastern
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 1a
Page: 357
Assuming Ralph was a bachelor when he married I assume he had no know children? If that's the case then you may be best off searching sites to see if you can find anyone researching his parents and siblings as well as Ralph himself as some might miss him off their trees if he had no known descendants.
If you have access to Ancestry you could look at public trees on there or Genes Reunited.
I think you may be spot on!
On my dad and mum's marriage cert (5 Jan 1952) he states his dad as 'Roderick' his mums brother. I believe my dad claimed Roderick as his dad to save embarrassment.
Rgds Terry..
This is common. You are lucky to know who Roderick was. It can be misleading when you don't know who the "father" is.
Thanks Merry & Kit
I will dig out the marriage certificate for Frances & Ralph King and check their address (I think it was Poplar Ave, Durham) I can then look who lived there prior to their marriage. I also think I may have Ralphs birth certificate.
In addition my dad Edward O'Neil had an uncle Thomas who moved to Oxfordshire. I remember going to see him with my dad when I was about 7. I think I may have found him on Findmypast the search engine I use. According to the transcription his death was registered in West Oxfordshire this would tie up with my visit in the 60's.
I have just ordered Thomas's death certificate and will now look towards researching his history. Maybe his family if he had one, shall be able to shed some light on the O'Neil family history. Fingers crossed!
My dad had many uncles and aunties according to 1911 census. I'm going to start researching them hopefully some may have descendants who may also be researching their family history.
Rgds
Terry..
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