View Full Version : Who Do You Think You Are - Gregg Wallace 22nd Aug
kiterunner
22-08-12, 12:19
This evening at 9 pm on BBC1. He is a presenter on MasterChef.
Margaret in Burton
22-08-12, 20:59
That was brilliant, very sad though
Yes, I thought it was very good but how much bad luck can one family have?
Found the similarities with last week quite interesting; the child being burnt. Shows it was more common than people think.
I've only found burning once in my tree, that was when an 85 year old stumbled in his kitchen and fell into the fire.
maggie_4_7
22-08-12, 21:02
So sad I never stopped snivelling.
Very good episode though.
Margaret in Burton
22-08-12, 21:08
Yes, I thought it was very good but how much bad luck can one family have?
Found the similarities with last week quite interesting; the child being burnt. Shows it was more common than people think.
I've only found burning once in my tree, that was when an 85 year old stumbled in his kitchen and fell into the fire.
I have a burning in my tree too. Well, the only one I know about.
Janet in Yorkshire
22-08-12, 21:08
Thoroughly enjoyed the progamme - for once, about "ordinary" folk we can all identify with.
My gt-grandfather's sister was, according to the burial register, "burnt to death at home." She was 5 years old and the tale handed down the generations is that she was sitting on the floor infront of a blazing fire, when a log moved and red hot coals rolled out of the grate and on to her.
Jay
Margaret in Burton
22-08-12, 21:09
So sad I never stopped snivelling.
Very good episode though.
Lets hope the rest of the series is as good, brilliant start.
kiterunner
22-08-12, 21:11
Episode Synpopsis
Gregg Wallace lives in Whitstable, Kent with his two children. He was born in London in 1964.
Gregg's mother also lives in Whitstable and he visited her for some information about their family. She said her father was Wilfred Henry Spriggett, born 6 Oct 1907, and that his father, Henry Roland Spriggett, "cleared off", leaving her granny Emily with Wilfred and his younger sister Vera, who was born 26 Aug 1911. Henry was a stoker in the Royal Navy and the family story was that he deserted from the Navy, last seen on a ship leaving from Liverpool for Australia.
Vera had a twin brother Harold who died aged 2 of TB.
The 1911 census entry shows Emily and Wilfred, with Henry Springett's name crossed out. (The twins were born after the date of the 1911 census.)
Gregg's mother also gave him a photo of Emily's mother, and gave Emily's maiden name as Leythorn.
Gregg looked online for Henry Roland Springett's naval records and found them. They showed that he was born 31 Oct 1880 in Bromley, Kent, and was a greengrocer by trade. The records confirmed that he served as a stoker but showed that he did not desert as he served for a long time and received a navy pension.
Gregg visited the Devonport Naval Base in Plymouth to find out more about Henry's naval career. He served in WW1 in the Irish Sea and the North Sea, on a Q ship which was a special navy ship disguised as a merchant ship to act as a decoy for German U-boats (submarines) and armed with concealed weapons.
The records also showed that Henry joined the Canadian Navy for a term of 2 years in 1910 and sailed on the 10th Oct 1910. He then signed up for a further 2 years in 1912.
The twins Vera and Harold were born on the 26th Aug 1911 so it appears that they were not Henry's children.
Gregg used his phone to search the catalogue on the website of TNA (The National Archives) for a divorce and found that Henry filed for a divorce in 1917, naming one Jack Burke as co-respondent. He applied for custody of his son Wilfred but not of Vera. However, the divorce didn't go through as Henry didn't appear in court in 1922 for the hearing.
Gregg was given the death certificate of Henry and Emily's daughter Valerie Springett, who died aged 22 months of shock from burns caused by an accident with a paraffin lamp. Gregg read newspaper reports of the inquest.
He then traced Emily's family back. Emily was born in High Bickington, Devon. She was baptised at the Bible Christian Chapel on the Barnstaple Circuit, a Methodist chapel. Her parents were Eli Leythorn, a farm labourer, and Selina. Gregg was told that the Bible Christians had women preachers and he thought that Selina might have been one of these preachers and that was the reason for the photo.
On the 1871 census, Selina was a gloveress aged 20, her sister was also a gloveress, her father an annuitant and her brother Richard an "imbecile".
Gregg visited an old glove factory in Torrington, Devon, and heard about the history of the glove industry there.
He then looked at the other census entries for Selina and her family:
1861 - Selina was already a gloveress, age 8, the only one in the household who had an occupation listed. Her father George Gill was listed as a pauper invalid.
1881 - Selina was a silk glove maker, married to Eli, a agricultural labourer.
1891 - Selina was still a glove maker, with two children, Emily and Ethel.
1901 - Selina was a lunatic in Devon County Lunatic Asylum at Exminster.
Gregg visited the Devon Record Office in Exeter to look at the lunatic asylum records on Selina. The reception order from 1896 showed that she believed she was destined to go to Hell and that she was always talking about this and disturbing people. She had previously been in the asylum 17-18 years before this, with a similar complaint, and her brother Richard had died at home of convulsions soon before her first admission. She had been discharged in 1879, 3 years after this first admission.
Selina died in the asylum in 1901, age 51.
Gregg visited the old asylum building and was shown a photograph of another woman who had been discharged from another asylum. The photo was similar to the one of Selina so it seems it could be that her photo was also taken when she was discharged from the asylum.
Back to Henry Springett - his death certificate was dated 6 Feb 1946. He died in Slough and the informant was his daughter S R Springett. A researcher told Gregg that this daughter had married and had been living in Slough recently as Rosemary Higginson with her son Geoffrey Higginson. Gregg managed to contact Geoffrey and met him to learn the rest of Henry's story.
Geoffrey's grandmother, another Emily, was a ballet and piano teacher. She and Henry did not marry. They had two England and they were fostered out. The family story was that Henry was a passenger in the car which knocked Emily down, but Gregg visited Larne library and read reports in the local paper, the Larne Times, which showed that he was a witness from 25 yards away. Emily had dashed in front of the car to rescue her young daughter from being knocked down. The newspaper report also stated that Henry had previously been the sole survivor of a drowning accident. Gregg visited the site of the car accident in Glynn.
Yes totally enjoyed it and I also have burning a 14 yr old burnt at work more that likely working for neighbour or along thos lines nothing much in the newspaper report and no inquest report kept so long
Olde Crone
22-08-12, 21:14
Oooh, dear.
Although I enjoyed this and thought it was sad, I'm afraid he got on my nerves a bit. I felt that his tears were a bit too ready, as it were.
I do think that this series may be better than the rest though - they seem to have upped the game a bit and we are getting more in depth information without the patronising voice overs telling us what a census is, or whatever.
OC
Lynn the Forest Fan
22-08-12, 21:35
I really enjoyed it, particularly the info about the lunatic asylum & the differences in the 2 times that Selina was admitted.
What a tragic family. It's ironic that whilst Greg did get a divorce, he also gained custody of his children - something his great grandfather was unable to do.
Old mental asylum buildings can be beautiful, although I doubt if I'd like to live within those refurbished walls knowing what happened behind them.
Olde Crone
22-08-12, 22:11
Rachel
If his great grandfather had attended his divorce hearing, he would undoubtedly have received custody of his son - men ALWAYS got custody of their children whether the wife was adulterous or not. Children belonged to their fathers.
OC
kiterunner
22-08-12, 22:12
Links to the census entries on ancestry:
Selina Gill in 1861 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=DEVRG9_1496_1502-0108&fn=Selina&ln=Gill&st=r&ssrc=&pid=18948303)
Selina Gill in 1871 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=DEVRG10_2194_2198-0046&fn=Selina&ln=Gill&st=r&ssrc=&pid=9238973)
Eli and Selina in 1881 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=DEVRG11_2249_2254-0860&fn=Eli&ln=Leathern&st=r&ssrc=&pid=3567687)
Eli and Selina in 1891 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=DEVRG12_1780_1785-0119&fn=Selina&ln=Leythome&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2740157)
Selina in 1901 in the asylum (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=DEVRG13_2038_2040-0680&fn=M&ln=Langharne&st=r&ssrc=&pid=11357949)
Emily Springett in 1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_12998_0625_03/54477781?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3demily%26gsln%3ds pring*T%26rs_81004011__date%3d0%26prox%3d1%26db%3d 1911england%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d10%26fsk%3dCIAACTABrosf&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
kiterunner
22-08-12, 22:17
I felt there were too many assumptions made (though at least they proved some of them wrong!) and that Gregg was too quick to judge his ancestors.
They seemed to assume from Henry's name being crossed out in the 1911 census entry that he and Emily must have already separated, but it could just be that Emily had written his name in because he lived there, and it was crossed out because he wasn't actually at home that night, perhaps at sea. I know that later on they found out he had joined the Canadian Navy by then, but they shouldn't have assumed he wasn't living there when they saw the name crossed out. There are loads of census entries like that. Also Gregg seems to have decided that Henry was some kind of saint! We really don't know all the facts about what caused the marriage break-up so I don't think we can say who left whom and why.
kiterunner
22-08-12, 22:22
And I would have liked to see what Selina died of, but maybe it would have caused too many tears!
Ann from Sussex
23-08-12, 05:40
Very good episode but agree about the tears. I thought that even the historian seemed to be on the verge of tears at one point when they were talking about the little girl who died of burns.
I haven't come across a death from burning in my own tree but I suppose in the days of only candles for lighting and open fires for heating (and cooking in some cases), it would have been much more common than it is today, especially amongst small children. How awful.
Rachel
If his great grandfather had attended his divorce hearing, he would undoubtedly have received custody of his son - men ALWAYS got custody of their children whether the wife was adulterous or not. Children belonged to their fathers.
OC
Yes, that was the case, but the fact was he didn't through circumstances... and then had to put his daughters up for adoption after Emily 2 was tragically killed... that's why I felt it ironic that Greg (against the odds) got custody of his children... I find it interesting when events in our lives mirror that of our ancestors, but the outcome is so different because of social attitudes, money etc :)
Olde Crone
23-08-12, 07:29
Rachel
I am seeing Henry's situation from a slightly different angle! In 1922 when he COULD have obtained a divorce, got custody of his son and made a decent woman out of Emily 2...he didn't.
When Emily2 died, he could easily have found a live in housekeeper and kept his children. Of course, I don't know how he felt or what his circumstances were but I don't think we can say he was "forced" to give up his second family.
Yes, I wanted to know what Selina died of. She wasn't all that old.
OC
Well, I enjoyed this episode, it was certainly "crowded with incident" as Lady Bracknell would say.
But as a more experienced family historian than Gregg, I was able to hold back the tears and also the judgments. We don't know what might have happened had Henry got custody of his son, we can only speculate. No-one except the spouses knows what goes on in the privacy of a marriage and its very likelyt hey have 2 different versions!
kiterunner
23-08-12, 08:10
and then had to put his daughters up for adoption after Emily 2 was tragically killed...
They were fostered out, but evidently stayed in touch with him or even went back to live with him later, since one of them was the informant on his death certificate.
It occurred to me that when Emily (1)'s baby died in the fire, if it had been the other child, Gregg wouldn't be here. After all, both children were in the bed and the bed caught fire too.
Rishile
maggie_4_7
23-08-12, 08:16
It occurred to me that when Emily (1)'s baby died in the fire, if it had been the other child, Gregg wouldn't be here. After all, both children were in the bed and the bed caught fire too.
Rishile
He did say on the program at one point its a wonder I'm here or something like that but that goes for a lot of people if you look back at their FH.
kiterunner
23-08-12, 11:34
Just thinking about the divorce papers - shouldn't they state Vera's supposed parentage? Also, I think they showed Vera's birth certificate, didn't they? Does anybody know what it said for father's name?
kiterunner
23-08-12, 11:42
Here is some unseen footage which sheds some light on why Henry didn't turn up in court for the divorce proceedings:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/13764
kiterunner
23-08-12, 11:46
Just thinking about the divorce papers - shouldn't they state Vera's supposed parentage? Also, I think they showed Vera's birth certificate, didn't they? Does anybody know what it said for father's name?
Managed to find it myself on iPlayer - and it does say Henry Roland Springett for father's name on the birth certificate. So if he wasn't the father, I would have thought there would be a mention of this in the divorce papers.
Thanks Kite, that's interesting :)
The Bible Christian connections sparked my curiosity. We were told that Selina was baptised a Bible Christian. Samuel Ley Thorne (b 1830) was one of the most prominent Bible Christians. They were active in Stoke Damerel (i went to school in Stoke Damerel) in Plymouth as well as North Devon and Cornwall. I haven't been able to establish a connection between Eli Lethern/Leathern/Leythorn, but it seems possible.
Bible Christian backgroud:
James and John Thorne met preacher William Bryant and invited him to preach at Lake Farm, Shebbear, N Devon. Afterwards, 22 people asked him to set up a religious society - seven were members of the Thorne family. The Thorne family became key to the development of the society.
John Thorne married Mary Ley in 1789. They had five children:
1 Mary b 1790
2 John b 1793
3 James b 1795
4 Susanna b 1801
5 Samuel b 1798
Samuel Thorne b 1798, set up a print works in Stoke Damerel in Plymouth in 1823. He married Mary O'Bryan in 1825. They had nine children - two in Plymouth and the others in Shebbear, N Devon. It was their son Samuel Ley Thorne, b 1830, who became one of the most prominent Bible Christian preachers.
The print works must have produced the prayer book that Gregg was shown.
Margaret in Burton
23-08-12, 12:12
Managed to find it myself on iPlayer - and it does say Henry Roland Springett for father's name on the birth certificate. So if he wasn't the father, I would have thought there would be a mention of this in the divorce papers.
As she was a married woman it is always assumed that the husband is the father surely
kiterunner
23-08-12, 12:13
I think they only said that Selina's children were baptised as Bible Christians, I don't think they said whether Selina herself was. But that's very interesting about the Thorns, Shona. There surely must be a connection with the Leythorns.
kiterunner
23-08-12, 12:14
As she was a married woman it is always assumed that the husband is the father surely
Yes, that's right, but if he was filing for divorce on the grounds of his wife's adultery, you would think he would mention that she had had twins by another man!
Margaret in Burton
23-08-12, 12:43
Yes, that's right, but if he was filing for divorce on the grounds of his wife's adultery, you would think he would mention that she had had twins by another man!
Ah but as his name was on the birth certs and he hadn't had them taken off how would he prove it? I suppose his naval record might have shown he wasn't around when they were conceived but would that have been available to him?
kiterunner
23-08-12, 12:45
I was wondering why he didn't have his name taken off the birth certificate, Marg.
maggie_4_7
23-08-12, 13:01
Here is some unseen footage which sheds some light on why Henry didn't turn up in court for the divorce proceedings:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/13764
Thanks Kiterunner, I always want to go into everything if I was the Producer/Director I'd end up with 12 hour long episodes not 1 hour.
Ahh I knew there had to be a good reason I just didn't think that he would not turn up after attempting to divorce Emily and get custody of his son and then of course Emily number two got killed and so by then he probably thought what the hell wasn't any point anymore he couldn't look after his two small daughters let alone another child, not sure why he didn't notify the court though or get someone to notify on his behalf that he was unable to attend.
I feel quite sorry for all the people involved but it seemed trouble didn't half follow Henry about.
Margaret in Burton
23-08-12, 13:02
I was wondering why he didn't have his name taken off the birth certificate, Marg.
Never occurred to him?
Didn't realise she had named him if he'd never seen the certs?
Didn't know you could have your name taken off?
maggie_4_7
23-08-12, 13:06
I was wondering why he didn't have his name taken off the birth certificate, Marg.
A bit of procrastination perhaps, trouble always followed Henry about but perhaps he wasn't vindictive enough or vindictive at all to take his name off the birth certificate it would be an act against a small child rather than use other evidence re: adultery to gain a divorce and custody of your natural son, by inference the dates and the divorce proceedings would be enough for the court.
maggie_4_7
23-08-12, 13:14
Never occurred to him?
Didn't realise she had named him if he'd never seen the certs?
Didn't know you could have your name taken off?
... and these.
kiterunner
23-08-12, 13:45
Here is Henry's entry from the Royal Canadian Navy Ledger Sheets database. It doesn't look as though the actual Canadian Navy records have been digitised, though.
Henry R Springett (http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/navyledgersheet/001102-119.01-e.php?&person_id_nbr=8433&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=biuda8ht4tairrvglsah6473p3)
Looks like he was long gone by the time the twins were born and when their births were registered by Emily... wouldn't it have been her word to who the father was, probably to hide the shame of her infidelity? Hence the cover story that 'he had cleared off and left her'.
kiterunner
23-08-12, 14:54
It just seems as though Gregg and the research team assumed that Henry wasn't the twins' father on the basis of the date of sailing shown in his navy records, and the twins' date of birth, but we know that dates on service records can be wrong, as shown last week in the Samantha Womack episode where the year was wrong on her ancestor's army record, and dates of birth on birth certificates can also be inaccurate, so I just wish they had shown something more definite!
Even if they are right about Henry not being the twins' father, I'm also worried about their assumption that he joined the Canadian Navy because he had found out that Emily was having an affair - if their dates are right, he sailed for Canada before she got pregnant with the twins, so it could be that he left her for some other reason and that was why she took up with someone else.
But maybe there is more information in the divorce papers than they had time to show us in the programme, such as dates when Emily was supposed to be seeing the other man.
Hmmm... just been Googling him and left wondering how he can be so morally opinionated about Emily's infidelity, when he's not so saintly himself. Also he must be an expert on divorce, being that he's had 3 of them!!!!
http://healthfwd.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/gregg-wallace-facing-third-divorce.html
:rolleyes:
maggie_4_7
23-08-12, 15:37
I'm not sure he was that moraly opinionated to be honest he never came across that way to me and I think as Kiterunner said on a previous post "We really don't know all the facts about what caused the marriage break-up so I don't think we can say who left whom and why. " which I think goes for most divorces/relationship break ups then and now.
I was wondering what happened to JB the co-respondant in the divorce and also V the child.
Well... Henry started out as the 'villian' and ended up the victim... and Emily the victim and then the villian. Although, as said, you never know all the story.
Ann from Sussex
23-08-12, 16:20
My ears pricked up as soon as the name Springett was mentioned as I have a 4xgt grandmother who was born Elizabeth Springett in East Farleigh, Kent around 1749. I was therefore very interested to note that Henry Roland Springett was born in Bromley,Kent. Am I related? I doubt it as it is a name that occurs quite a bit in Kent and I'm not sure I would want to be connected to someone as unlucky as poor old Henry!
Some more about the Eli(as) Leythorne:
1851 Schoop, High Bickington
William Leythorne, 53, fam lab, born Bickington
Ann Leythorne, 48, glover, born Bickington
Henry Leythorne, 10, scholar, born Bickington
Emily Leythorne, 7, scholar, born Bickington
Elias Leythorne, 3, born Bickington
In 1861, of 814 employed females in the Great Torrington, 482 were glovers.
Although the show implied that Selina Gill would have walked to Great Torrington to collect the cut out fabric to stitch the gloves, this wasn't the case. 'Pack Walkers', delivered the fabric to the outworkers, paid them and then took away the finished gloves.
Eli Leythorne died in 1932 at the age of 84.
maggie_4_7
23-08-12, 16:54
Thanks Shona I was just thinking about the Ley Thorn connection and I had just found that census.
mmm it cannot be a coincidence that name they must be related to Samuel.
So poor Selina really ended up with religious mania brought about by (what I believe) indoctrination and then believing that she had caused something bad to happen :rolleyes:
Thanks Shona I was just thinking about the Ley Thorn connection and I had just found that census.
mmm it cannot be a coincidence that name they must be related to Samuel.
So poor Selina really ended up with religious mania brought about by (what I believe) indoctrination and then believing that she had caused something bad to happen :rolleyes:
We saw in the census that Selina's brother Richard was described as an 'imbecile', which could indicate some sort of mental illness. Richard died at the age of 18 in 1876. Possibly mental instability ran in the family?
It just seems as though Gregg and the research team assumed that Henry wasn't the twins' father on the basis of the date of sailing shown in his navy records, and the twins' date of birth, but we know that dates on service records can be wrong, as shown last week in the Samantha Womack episode where the year was wrong on her ancestor's army record, and dates of birth on birth certificates can also be inaccurate, so I just wish they had shown something more definite!
Even if they are right about Henry not being the twins' father, I'm also worried about their assumption that he joined the Canadian Navy because he had found out that Emily was having an affair - if their dates are right, he sailed for Canada before she got pregnant with the twins, so it could be that he left her for some other reason and that was why she took up with someone else.
But maybe there is more information in the divorce papers than they had time to show us in the programme, such as dates when Emily was supposed to be seeing the other man.
Emily was expecting twins which were born eight months after Henry left to join the Canadian Navy. He is named on the birth certificate. Twins (and other multiple births) are usually born preterm. So the eight month period is not unusual.
I come from a Navy family and know that there was a great deal of (ahem) 'activity' that went on before the men sailed.
Who's the daddy? Probably Henry.
kiterunner
23-08-12, 17:51
Emily was expecting twins which were born eight months after Henry left to join the Canadian Navy. He is named on the birth certificate. Twins (and other multiple births) are usually born preterm. So the eight month period is not unusual.
I come from a Navy family and know that there was a great deal of (ahem) 'activity' that went on before the men sailed.
Who's the daddy? Probably Henry.
They stated in the programme that the twins were born on the 26th Aug 1911 and that Henry sailed on the 10th Oct 1910. Gregg said, "August is the eighth month (i.e. eighth month of the year) so they would have been conceived in November, after he sailed", or words to that effect.
Thanks for the clarification Kiterunner.
ElizabethHerts
23-08-12, 19:38
I really enjoyed this episode - we watched at our daughter's and have just returned, so I haven't had time to read this thread through yet.
A sad story, but obviously a lot more to discover. He seemed able to conduct some research himself, although that could have been misleading!
Just one point here :
Episode Synpopsis
1901 - Selina was a lunatic in Devon County Lunatic Asylum at Axminster.
It was actually Exminster, and not Axminster. Exminster is just south of Exeter, whereas Axminster is further east, almost as far as the Dorset/Devon border.
I enjoyed it too - but wondered about Selina's mum and where she was - had she died by the time Selina age 8 and the only working in the home. Also wondered if the sermons from the chapel had too much influence on her that caused her to be sectioned.
It seems to be that it was almost fanatical... no wonder she was left with mental problems after witnessing her brother's death. Maybe she felt that she was to blame in some way?
Olde Crone
23-08-12, 21:15
To me it sounded as if she had manic depression - they said she wouldn't stop talking and that is one of the symptoms of manic depression when the person is on a "high".
I once attended a funeral at a Bible Christian chapel. It was, erm, odd in the extreme, not least the fact that we all had to shout "hallelujah!" because the deceased had died and we should all be very very happy for him.
OC
kiterunner
23-08-12, 21:41
It was actually Exminster, and not Axminster. Exminster is just south of Exeter, whereas Axminster is further east, almost as far as the Dorset/Devon border.
Thanks for that, Elizabeth, will correct it right away!
ElizabethHerts
23-08-12, 21:42
I didn't want to nit-pick, Kate, but I know the area well!
Oakum Picker
23-08-12, 21:45
I have only just watched the programme & I did enjoy it. I too have a child in the family, in my case an aunt, who died from burns aged 2, although she survived for 5 days.
The part that had the most impact on me was when Gregg picked up the phone to contact his relation in Slough. I realise this had all been prearranged by the Beeb but I wonder how many newbies will think this is accepted practice when they find living relatives!!
ElizabethHerts
24-08-12, 07:24
The 1861 Census says that Selina was 8 at the time. However, she can be found on the 1851 census as an infant:
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1851&uir=647cafcd246484541ea3b354c6d04dd8&lineNo=3&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=0ab0e172b58ae4a796de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&h=6923428&indiv=try&o_cvc=Image:OtherRecord
Here is her registration. The spelling is Selena.
Name: GILL, Selena
Registration district: ] Torrington
County: Devon
Year of registration: 1850
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Volume no:10
Page no:304
ElizabethHerts
24-08-12, 07:36
George and Susan Gill had a fair few children:
1841 Census
Anthony, Emmy, Susan, Dennis
1851 Census
Susannah, Samuel, George, Selena
1861 Census
Selena (again), Lydia, Rebecca, Richard
So 10 that appeared on censuses. There may have been more inbetween.
I can't find them on Family Search, but they look as they may pop up on FMP:
Surname: Gill
Forenames: Anthony
Father's Forename: George
Mother's Forename: Susan
Father's Occupation: Labourer
Year: 1831
Month: Jun
Day: 19
Abode: Yarnscombe
Parish: Yarnscombe
Town Or City:
County: Devon
Record source: Devon Baptisms - Transcripts
ElizabethHerts
24-08-12, 07:40
The baptisms are useful as they give more information:
Surname: Gill
Forenames: Samuel
Father's Forename: George
Mother's Forename: Susanna
Father's Occupation: Husbandman
Year: 1838
Month: Apr
Day: 22
Abode: Gibbins Down
Parish:Yarnscombe
Town Or City:
County: Devon
Record source: Devon Baptisms - Transcripts
ElizabethHerts
24-08-12, 07:43
Surname: Gill
Forenames: Susanna
Father's Forename: George
Mother's Forename: Susanna
Father's Occupation: Labourer
Year: 1836
Month: Jan
Day: 31
Abode: Yarnscombe
Parish: Yarnscombe
County: Devon
Record source: Devon Baptisms - Transcripts
ElizabethHerts
24-08-12, 07:48
The later baptisms don't appear to be there, but I found George's marriage to Susan:
Groom's Surname: Gill
Groom's Forename: George
Bride's Surname: Martin
Bride's Forename: Susan
Year: 1831
Month: Jan
Day: 22
Parish: Yarnscombe
County: Devon
The later baptisms don't appear to be there, but I found George's marriage to Susan:
Groom's Surname: Gill
Groom's Forename: George
Bride's Surname: Martin
Bride's Forename: Susan
Year: 1831
Month: Jan
Day: 22
Parish: Yarnscombe
County: Devon
Therefore Susan was pregnant with Anthony when she married George. I'd also noticed that they had at least 10 children.
Lydia married Thomas Isaac and in the 1911 their two daughters were glove makers.
Denis Gill was a stoker in the Royal Navy. He married twice. First to Elizabeth and then to Bessie. Lived in Stoke Damerel in Plymouth and went on to become a publican.
Emma died in 1898.
In the episode, the comments on the lunatic asylum admission register came from Selina's sister-in-law, Mary. I have noticed that Anthony had a wife called Mary. Why was Mary making the comments? I would have thought it was more likely to be Eli who would comment on his wife's health.
Mary said that Selina kept saying that she 'had sold her soul to hell and can not go to heaven'. Also that she was very noisy shouting out text and scripture declaring her soul lost. Twisting her face, bites her lips and grins.
It was suggested in the show that Selina's first admission to the asylum may have been connected with the death of her brother Richard. Given that George died in 1895, the year she was admitted for the second time, could it be possible his death triggered another episode of mental illness?
All in all a much more satisfactory episode than Sam Womack's which left far too many loose threads.
Very good episode but agree about the tears. I thought that even the historian seemed to be on the verge of tears at one point when they were talking about the little girl who died of burns.
I haven't come across a death from burning in my own tree but I suppose in the days of only candles for lighting and open fires for heating (and cooking in some cases), it would have been much more common than it is today, especially amongst small children. How awful.
Hello
Children being burnt was not restricted to the early 20th century. I have first hand knowledge of two such incidents in my own lifetime. One was an infant school friend who survived an accidental knocking over of an oil lamp before she started school, although the resulting horrendous disfigurement she had to live with for the rest of her life.
The other was a little boy who had the presence of mind to wrap his younger sister in a towel when her hair caught fire from a table candle flame. Both of them were burned but the girl's face was not disfigured, although he lost the use of his hands for about 3 months. People ooh and ahh at pretty farm cottages today but even up to the early 1960's some of them did not have gas or electric lighting, and open fires were the norm.
Thank heavens for fire retardant clothing legislation!
Sue at the seaside
25-08-12, 17:53
People ooh and ahh at pretty farm cottages today but even up to the early 1960's some of them did not have gas or electric lighting, and open fires were the norm.
Thank heavens for fire retardant clothing legislation!
Slightly off topic, I haven't seen the prog yet, a treat for tonight!!! but this point is so true, also have a friend badly burned in the 60s. I also fell into the open fire at home, the fire guard had been taken down as I was out at a party, got back and was a vey excited 4 year old, spun round and fell into the fire. Quick reactions prevented any injury whatsoever, but a narrow escape.
We moved into a flat in 1973 with no electricity supply, it had been lived in by an old lady and lit by candles, very risky! there was provision for gas lamps but she didn't use them. This was no quaint pretty area, but Hackney in East London
I felt there were too many assumptions made (though at least they proved some of them wrong!) and that Gregg was too quick to judge his ancestors.
I thought he was pretty quick to judge too, but I suppose these were just his first thoughts and lots of people make assumptions when they start researching.
With regard to the breakdown of Emily and Henry's marriage, I did wonder if her mother having been in an asylum might have been the reason or part of the reason. I'm sure I saw their marriage cert, or part of it, on the programme (unless it was just mentioned) as I spotted/heard they were married at a reg office, but what the program didn't mention was that Emily had said her father Eli was dec'd, when he was alive and well on the 1911 census. (got that info here: http://www.high-bickington.org.uk/FamilyTrees/info/EmilyLeythorne3.htm) I wondered if she had tried to keep her background hidden? I know many people were terrified of mental illness in those days. Maybe Henry thought she would be the same or that his children might be affected? Obviously there may be 101 other reasons they split, to me one of the least likely being that he found out she was having an affair!
Emily lived for six years after Gregg was born - presumably he never saw her.
Did they manage to hide the fact that Selina's father was written as Richard Gill rather than George in 1871?
Re Henry leaving for Canada in October 1910 - the ship the historian mentioned he was on - HMCS Niobe - did indeed sail for Halifax, Nova Scotia on 10th October 1910 according to the Times which reported the departure the following day.
Olde Crone
25-08-12, 20:42
10th October to 26th August = 322 days. A normal full term pregnancy is 280 days - I think it beyond belief that a twin pregnancy would go 42 days over due date and result in two live births.
OC
Margaret in Burton
25-08-12, 21:41
10th October to 26th August = 322 days. A normal full term pregnancy is 280 days - I think it beyond belief that a twin pregnancy would go 42 days over due date and result in two live births.
OC
I agree OC
Henry filed for divorce in 1918. We know that he and Emily 2 lived in Glynn - a town land north of Larne. Larne was used as a base during WW1, especially for ant-submarine patrols. He is likely to have met Emiky 2 in Larne during the war. Possibly he filed for divorce because he had fallen for someone else.
Olde Crone
26-08-12, 12:42
Shona
In 1918 there was only one qualification for a man to get a divorce - his wife was unfaithful. There were no other grounds.
OC
Shona
In 1918 there was only one qualification for a man to get a divorce - his wife was unfaithful. There were no other grounds.
OC
True. I was curious as to why he waited so long to file for divorce. Was he prompted to do so only after he met someone else?
This is a fascinating article about the history of divorce laws in England and Wales.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-508936/The-wife-changed-history--asking-divorce.html
True. I was curious as to why he waited so long to file for divorce. Was he prompted to do so only after he met someone else?
I should think that's highly likely.
I notice the divorce papers were on TNA under 1928. Why would that be?
Olde Crone
26-08-12, 20:16
Merry
Out of time, maybe - he never completed the divorce. (Or did he?).
OC
Hi just been reading all ..I am Vera springetts granddaughter and she had a very tough life too ..I am also keen to try to find out more about jack Burke now any ideas anyone ..very strange to see my ancestors on the tv sad story
Margaret in Burton
30-08-12, 19:54
Hi Rachael and welcome to GF
Did the BBC find you or didn't they look into Vera's family?
Hi thanks yes they contacted my dad who provided the portrait of selina and other photos and did warn him of a shock ! So we didn't know that Henry wasn't my gran s dad ...I however have vague memories of Emily ..being taken to see her in hospital before she died ..as I have done some of my family tree I did know some of the details but not all . Vera's husband my grandfather committed bigamy and did time for that think after the war and then disappeared and I have never been able to trace him since anywhere ! She was left to bring up my dad alone funnily enough the same story about deserting the navy and getting a ship abroad was the story about him too which I am finding very strange ...history repeating it self
Olde Crone
30-08-12, 20:34
Rachael
Welcome to GF. how amazing to have someone who is part of this family - we tend to forget that there are often other family members involved as well.
I wonder if Gregg had the wrong end of the stick and the "desertion" story was about the wrong family member, .i.e. your grandfather and not your great grandfather? I have a story in my own family about a man who was a drunkard - turns out to be a previous generation but with the same name!
OC
Thanks for the welcome ...ahh maybe it has got muddled over the years it just seems odd that was the story for my grans husband too , except for the bigamy bit which is different however I have still not found any hard evidence of this ! So wondering if this is true too
Olde Crone
30-08-12, 20:50
Well, Henry was a bigamist........
EDIT - Oooh, sorry, correction, we don't KNOW he was a bigamist, he may or may not have married emily2 in Ireland.
OC
Hello Rachael - did you post something about this on either facebook of Twitter? I'm sure I read a post about it. It must have been a shock to watch the show for you and your family. They did mention that 'Cousin David' provided the photo of Selina - is that your dad?
The stories about Henry vanishing may have got confused with the story about your grandfather vanishing. If you could let the Forum know details about your grandfather, someone may be able to reveal something. Perhaps he was the person last seen in Liverpool heading for Australia.
In one census that I looked at - when Henry was in the Navy - the next name under Henry's was either Jack or John Burke, who was Irish.
Do the family still live in Plymouth? My mum still lives there and I went to school at Stoke Dameral.
Welcome to the forum, Rachael :)
In one census that I looked at - when Henry was in the Navy - the next name under Henry's was either Jack or John Burke, who was Irish.
That was in 1901 - HMS Vulcan. John Burke was aged 23 - I wonder if this is his service record?
Name Burke, John
Official Number: 293989
Place of Birth: Londonderry, Ireland
18 March 1879
ADM 188/474
Yes my dad is cousin David , did Henry get married again ? Can't remember form the programme and yes did put a comment on Facebook ! Was interested to find out about jack Burke and remember seeing a comment about jack being in the navy with Henry ..we are still in the Plymouth area but live on the moors on the outskirts now ... Funnily enough my grandfather was last seen in Liverpool apparently ( his family moved ther ) so would be funny if the stories had got muddled over the years . Vera s husband called David Alexander Bennett, born march ( I think ) 1910 Scotland Wigtownshire area I think ,fathers name George bennett mother Mary Jane rennie spouse Vera Gwendoline springett was in the navy and was in Plymouth too it would be wonderful if someone could help I have tried to trace him for my dads sake as think he was five when he went ..I am not to good at this researching yet and think it would be great to be able to tell him where his dad ended up ! Only other thing I was told he was sent to prison for the bigamy to Exeter prison ..would appreciate any help thanks
Thank you will look into that jack Burke I have had a quick search but didn't have much to go on ...could be ?
Vera s husband called David Alexander Bennett, born march ( I think ) 1910 Scotland Wigtownshire area I think ,fathers name George bennett mother Mary Jane rennie spouse Vera Gwendoline springett was in the navy and was in Plymouth too it would be wonderful if someone could help I have tried to trace him for my dads sake as think he was five when he went
Do you know if he was in the Royal Navy or Merchant Service?
When was your dad five? (I could look that up, but it's easier to just ask!!)
kiterunner
30-08-12, 21:47
There might be some information about Jack Burke in the divorce papers at The National Archives, but I asked for an estimate of cost for a digital copy and they quoted a price of £61.60. I specified a monochrome copy but they said it would have to be colour; I don't know whether that's why it is so expensive - I had a copy of another (unrelated) set of divorce papers from them 5 years ago which only cost £8.50 but that was when they had the Digital Express service.
This is the info you would need if you want to look into the divorce papers:
item reference J 77/1368/1928 (part of document J
77/1368)
Divorce Court File: 1928. Appellant: Henry
Roland Springett. Respondent: Emily Springett.
Co-respondent: Jack Burke.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm
But of course it might not give any useful info about Jack Burke at all, though I should think it would be interesting anyway. If you can get to Kew easily yourself you would be able to order the papers there to look at and then you wouldn't have to pay. Otherwise, the service record would be a lot cheaper and more likely to have useful info - if it is the right Jack!
Merry .. My dad was born in aug 1936 and I was told he was 5 when his dad disappeared which it would be 1941 ish (without googling it I also thought it was end of the war he disappeared ) also lead to believe it was royal navy but could double check all this with my dad if needed !? Interesting none of his brothers etc never saw him again either as they contacted my dad years later ..think one of mentioned he could of gone south Africa / isle of Mann /Australia / London but think they were just guessing ! All I can find online is the marriage to my gran in Plymouth in1935 all a bit of a mystery haha
Thanks kite runner for that info on jack Burke gosh that's a lot of money for divorce records I am tempted to get them at some point possibly as you say they might not have anything on them about jack Burke and do you think that there is a chance he is the father of Vera i wonder if it would have that information in the record ...or a possibly a trip to London would be interesting at some point ..tempting !! Thanks for all your help you are so more knowledgable than me !
If you can't go to Kew yourself to get a copy of the divorce papers, it might be cheaper to get someone independent to get you a copy and post it to you than pay Kew that rather large sum!
I've never had to obtain RN records for someone as late as this myself, but as your father would be next of kin that is someting that could be looked into.
I remember the struggle someone else had when trying to get the army papers for their father (similar circumstances) where the MoD wouldn't not accept the application as the death cert of the man could not be provided, because, like you, no one knew what happened to him. Typically, I don't remember what happened in the end though! Here's some info on obtaining Navy records:
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKRNPersonnel.html
maggie_4_7
31-08-12, 19:58
Hi just been reading all ..I am Vera springetts granddaughter and she had a very tough life too ..I am also keen to try to find out more about jack Burke now any ideas anyone ..very strange to see my ancestors on the tv sad story
Hi Rachael
Welcome to the forum.
I did wonder what happened to Vera.
tenterfieldjulie
18-09-13, 13:21
I have just seen this episode in WA and so I thought I would see what the forum has to say. Very amazed to see Shona's post 28 and the preacher William Bryant as I think he could be a twig on my tree.
I've got to say that I don't think I've seen a family have so many tragedies .. especially the burning and the child being run over .. I'm sure I would have ended up being mentally effected .. I suppose having other children you have to keep going, but you would have to carry scars.
Just one comment re Bible Christians and some of them to this day believe that illness is caused by sin .. I think it wouldn't be necessary to be insane to end up in an asylum, but to be brain washed and wracked with guilt. I had a family member who had serious medical problems and a Bible Christian friend told her that it was caused by her sin. Fortunately she was only told this once, but if you were at chapel three times a day from a child .. and had a brother who was retarded, maybe the poor young woman who ended up in the asylum also had a "friend" with advice . Julie
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