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View Full Version : Who Do You Think You Are - Samantha Womack 15th Aug


kiterunner
15-08-12, 09:58
This evening on BBC1 at 9 pm.

Samantha Womack, formerly Samantha Janus, is best known for playing Ronnie in EastEnders and Mandy in Game On.

Merry
15-08-12, 17:03
I'm looking forward to seeing this series, even if Samantha looked a bit giggly and hyperactive in the clip I just looked at!

Margaret in Burton
15-08-12, 19:01
I'm looking forward to the whole series

Rachel A
15-08-12, 22:15
I missed the first 5 minutes... so Beatrice must have come back to the UK at some point and didn't talk about her history/travels with her decendents??

Olde Crone
15-08-12, 22:21
Rachel

Ha! Exactly what I thought too! Although Samantha did say that her family never really talked about the past but you would have thought that as she is an actress, someone would have said "oh, your grannie's mother was an actress too".

I enjoyed this more than I thought I would, but as usual, more questions than answers. I was wondering why they weren't looking for Jessie as Jessie Garraud on the passenger lists, rather than Jessie Ryder, her maiden name.

OC

kiterunner
15-08-12, 22:28
Episode Synopsis

Samantha Womack nee Janus is married to Mark Womack and they have two children. She was born in Brighton. She is an only child and her parents separated when she was a child. Her mother Diana was an actress and model and her father Noel was a singer / songwriter who took his own life about two years ago.

Samantha went to visit her father's mother Dolly in Brighton. Dolly knew very little about her own parents and their backgrounds but she did know that her mother's name was Beatrice Garraud and her father's was Alexander Cunningham Ryan. They separated when Dolly was a child. She also said that Beatrice's mother's name was Jessie Ryder and that Alexander was gassed in WW1 when he was in the Scots Guards.

Samantha started by researching Alexander Cunningham Ryan's military career. She viewed his service record at Wellington Barracks in London, the home of the Scots Guards. The record showed that he attested on the 22nd Sep 1914 and was transferred to the 1st Battalion on the 27th Dec 1914. His pension document showed that he was discharged due to a gunshot wound which damaged his right lung. His service papers also showed that he was born in Glasgow and had previously served in the Highland Light Infantry for 14 years and 5 months.

Samantha then went to Glasgow to visit the Royal Highland Fusiliers Museum where she viewed a copy of his service record with the Highland Light Infantry. This showed that he joined on the 5th July 1895 at the age of 14 years and 6 months. His birthplace was shown as Maryhill in Glasgow. The museum had a picture of a J Ryan who was also a boy soldier and may have been related to Alexander, perhaps his brother.

Alexander's military records showed that he was a Bandsman and that he was discharged under Article 1142 (i.e. for personal reasons) with 8 years and 2 days' service, and then re-enlisted into the Royal Garrison Artillery stationed at Plymouth.

Samantha then visited the Royal Citadel in Plymouth where she saw yet another copy of his service records, which showed that he served as a musician in Plymouth and that he deserted in 1910 and was arrested 6 months later, and was tried and convicted by a civilian court, imprisoned, and discharged from the army.

The next place she visited was Plymouth Record Office to look at the prison records. She found that Alexander Cunningham Ryan was sentenced to 1 month imprisonent on the 19th Aug 1910 for stealing a cornet (worth £4 4s) but there was also a previous offence of stealing a euphonium (worth £12 12s) earlier the same year. A newspaper report showed that he was the storeman and store librarian in charge of musical instruments and that he had been in the habit of taking the instruments, pawning them, and later redeeming them when he had some money to spare. He received a dishonourable discharge from the army with a caution that if he attempted to rejoin the army without mentioning this, he would be liable to two years in prison. This would be why he didn't mention his service in the RGA when he joined up in WW1.



Samantha then turned her attentions to Dolly's mother Beatrice Garraud. She went to the Society of Genealogists to see Else Churchill, who showed her a marriage certificate dated 17th August 1892 - Pierre Francois Olidon Garraud age 27 married Jessie Ryder age 23. Fathers' names Antonin Garraud, a judge, and Alfred Ryder, an accountant. Else Churchill had birth certificates for two children of this couple - Anthony Leonard Garraud born 14 Dec 1892 and Berthe Marie Josephe Garraud born 26 Aug 1894 at the French Hospital, Shaftesbury Avenue. It was thought that Berthe was most likely the same person as Beatrice.

There was also a death certificate for Anthony. He died at the age of 6 years old in Hampstead Workhouse Infirmary, as the result of an accident where his nightdress caught fire in St Vincent's Orphanage. The death certificate gave the date of the inquest as 28th Feb 1899 so Samantha visited the Camden Archives Centre to look at copies of the Hampstead and Highgate Express and the Hampstead Record around that date for more information.

The newspapers reported the boy's name as Anthony Garrond and stated that his grandfather Alfred Wright appeared and said that he lived in Putney and that the boy's father was dead and his mother was abroad, in America, on the stage.

Samantha went to West Hampstead library and looked for Beatrice on the 1901 census where she appeared as Beattie Garrond living at Nazareth House in St Paul's, South Hammersmith, a convent for the aged and infirm and for destitute children.



Samantha visited Nazareth House and was shown the Children's Admission Register which showed that Beatrice's parents were Peter Garraud and Jessie Ryder and that she was received on the 29th July 1897 and taken away by her grandparents in May 1902.

The passenger lists show tht Jessie Ryder travelled from Liverpool to New York in March 1891 and returned in November of the same year so Samantha went to New York to see if she could find out more about Jessie's life in America. There was no information in New York but it turned out that Jessie had a daughter Annie Gertrude Finkle born 5 Aug 1899 at 36 1/2 Erie St, Jersey City. Annie Gertrude's father was Harry Philip Finkle. A theatrical historian helped Samantha to find a newspaper article about Jessie and Gertrude with photos, stating that they were appearing together in the Silver Slipper Company in 1904.

Samantha found the Finkle family on the 1910 US census with a son Harry jr age 5 and also Beatrice age 14. She also found a New York passenger list showing the Finkles travelling over in September 1907 - Mrs Jessie Finkle with Beatrice age 10, also Gertrude and Harry jr plus a Helen age 11.

kiterunner
15-08-12, 22:52
I was wondering why they weren't looking for Jessie as Jessie Garraud on the passenger lists, rather than Jessie Ryder, her maiden name.



Me too! Also where and when and how did Jessie's first husband die?

kiterunner
15-08-12, 23:15
The ancestry passenger lists show Jessie Finkle arriving at Plymouth from Washington in 1936, age 60, but there must be another arrival to find in 1907 before they went back with Beatrice.

Oh, and I want to find out who Helen was! They said she might be a cousin or something but I'm wondering if she is Jessie's stepdaughter.

kiterunner
15-08-12, 23:19
This is the Finkles arriving at Southampton in June 1907:
Passenger List (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1518&iid=30807_A000307-00030&fn=Helen&ln=Finkle&st=d&ssrc=&pid=19326953)

Mrs Hy Finkle, wife, 37, with children Helen 11, Gertrude 7 and Harry 3.

kiterunner
15-08-12, 23:46
Hmmm, looking at the 1910 census image, Jessie says she is the mother of 3 children, all 3 living. :( So that would be Beatrice, Gertrude and Harry jr, who are all with her, and she has forgotten Anthony.
On that same census, Jessie's husband Henry P Finkle is age 39, born New York, occupation theatrical.

In 1900 Henry P Finkle is 29 born New York, theatrical manager, living at 36 1/2 Erie Street, Jersey City, with his parents Peter and Gertrude, and he is married, for 1 year, but Jessie and Annie Gertrude aren't with the family. Wonder where they are?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=7602&iid=004120440_00642&fn=Henry+P&ln=Finkle&st=r&ssrc=&pid=31715156

kiterunner
15-08-12, 23:53
I must go to bed now, but another thing I want to find out is whether Alfred Ryder and his wife really couldn't afford to take the children in - Alfred is an accountant on Jessie's marriage certificate! And their other grandfather was a judge - surely someone could have taken them in!

Asa
16-08-12, 07:53
I've only watched about half so far but I'm really enjoying it and quite impressed with Sam Womack - she's a bit excitable but really throwing herself into it and thinking quite intelligently about it all.

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 09:02
I haven't found a death for Pierre, nor a marriage for the Finkles (although I suppose that could have taken place in USA).

The Alfred "Wright" (Ryder) who apeared at the inquest of Anthony, didn't appear to be an accountant. I wonder if the MC was bigged up (oh, how unusual) and he was something more mundane like a book keeper?

OC

Merry
16-08-12, 09:10
I still haven't managed to watch this yet - an opportunity may come along this evening though......!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 10:20
Okay, this is Alfred Ryder (Jessie's father) in 1891, at 48 Grafton St, Pancras, which is the address on Jessie's marriage certificate:

1891 census (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LNDRG12_119_120-0483&fn=Alfred&ln=Ryder&st=r&ssrc=&pid=20312710)

Alfred Ryder Head M 50 Silversmith's Clerk Devon Devonport
Augusta Do Daur S 19 Do Plymouth
Archibald Do Son S 16 Do Do
Ethel Do Daur S 14 Music Hall Artiste Do Do
Patti Do Daur 12 Do Do Do Do
and a load of boarders.

Now I can see where Jessie got the idea to put her daughter on the stage at a very young age!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 10:24
And this is the Ryder family in 1881:
1881 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=DEVRG11_2197_2200-1136&fn=Alfred+E.&ln=Ryder&st=d&ssrc=&pid=3345574)

Alfred's wife is Fanny, age 40 born Devon Devonport, and Jessie is with the family, age 14, scholar, born Devon Plymouth.

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 10:37
Thanks Kate, that's interesting but expected - he was a clerk, not an accountant!

Given the unusual nature of the surname Garraud, I wonder who is Edward Garraud who marries in 1910 to Sarah Sellers?

Is there any sight of Pierre Garraud in 1891?

OC

kiterunner
16-08-12, 10:38
Found Jessie's mother in 1891 in Devon with one of Jessie's married sisters. Fanny's occupation is Vocalist (Music).
1891 census (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=DEVRG12_1723_1725-0655&fn=Fanny&ln=Ryder&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2912830)

Alfred Ryder in 1901:
1901 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LNDRG13_35_36-0198&fn=Alfred&ln=Ryder&st=d&ssrc=&pid=323830)
He is head of household with a few boarders. Marital status M but his wife isn't there. If Alfred and Fanny were separated it might explain why they couldn't have the children living with them. Of course it could just be that Fanny happened to be away from home on census night. Or maybe she travelled around performing on stage too.

kiterunner
16-08-12, 10:40
Is there any sight of Pierre Garraud in 1891?



Not managed to find him yet. He is 27 on the marriage certificate, bachelor, accountant, gives the Ryders' address.

kiterunner
16-08-12, 10:43
Given the unusual nature of the surname Garraud, I wonder who is Edward Garraud who marries in 1910 to Sarah Sellers?


Edward was born in France about 1884-5. Occupation Hairdresser on the 1911 census. May or may not be related, I suppose.

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 10:45
Another thing - if Jessie was pregnant when she went to the US, then Harry Finkle must have been in the UK at the required time.If so, I wonder why she didn't travel to the US with him?

It is definitely just coincidence that Harry Finkle's middle name was Peter?

OC

kiterunner
16-08-12, 11:05
Here are Jessie, Harry sr and Harry jr returning from England to New York in 1929:
NY Passenger List (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=7488&iid=NYT715_4482-0667&fn=Jessie&ln=Finkle&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2006133212)

I haven't managed to find Beatrice returning to England yet.

kiterunner
16-08-12, 11:14
Hmmmmmm....!

Alexander Cunningham Ryan's marriage is on FreeBMD - Jan-Mar 1908 Plymouth district, and the two possible brides are Beatrice Winifred Pickford and Clara Ward. I was meaning to get around to looking at his army records on ancestry anyway, and there are three sets listed. The first set is his Scots Guards WW1 papers and it states that his next of kin is wife Beatrice Winifred Ryan of 63 Lilford Road, Camberwell, London SE, and that he married Beatrice Winifred Pickford, spinster, 14.3.08 at the Register Office Plymouth, witnesses B M Launder and H Pickford. :confused:

kiterunner
16-08-12, 11:27
Something else puzzling me from the army record - the description on enlistment in Sep 1914 includes "Bullet wound lower right chest". The information about his discharge in Apr 1915 says he was shot in action Feb 3rd 1914 at Neuve Chapelle but presumably it should be 1915, not 1914? So was the description on enlistment updated when he was discharged, or was he shot twice?

(Also the records from his original service show his next of kin as father James William and brothers Michael, Peter and William, and the papers from when he was in the RGA show mother Jane Ryan and younger brothers Michael and Peter, no mention of a brother J Ryan, but they did say that was just a guess.)

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 11:28
Daughter Ryan was born in 1924, mmn GARRAND (someone has done a post-em correction).

I suspect Alexander never married Beatrice and "the marriage broke up quickly" was a face-saving exercise at the time.

Does mean that Beatrice returned to the UK between 1910 and 1924 though!

OC

kiterunner
16-08-12, 11:33
The National Probate Calendar entry for Alexander's estate in 1944 is interesting too - RYAN Alexander Cunningham or CUNNINGHAM Jock otherwise Alexander of 15a Roskell road Putney London died 19 November 1943 Probate Llandudo 17 January to Louise Page (wife of Oliver Edward James Page). Effects £483 5s 2d.

kiterunner
16-08-12, 11:33
Daughter Ryan was born in 1924, mmn GARRAND (someone has done a post-em correction).

I suspect Alexander never married Beatrice and "the marriage broke up quickly" was a face-saving exercise at the time.

Does mean that Beatrice returned to the UK between 1910 and 1924 though!

OC

So he had relationships with two Beatrices! I hadn't thought about the dates.

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 11:40
Well, I did briefly wonder if the two Beatrices were actually the same person but I think that's stretching even my imagination! It was the surname Pickford which made me a bit suspicious.

OC

kiterunner
16-08-12, 11:42
There is a Beatrice Winifred Pickford born 1884 E Stonehouse so she is probably the first one.

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 11:50
There don't appear to be any Ryan/Pickford births.

I cannot find a likely Alexander anyone marrying a Be* anyone but they may have married in Scotland - off to look!

OC

WoozleWife
16-08-12, 11:55
It is worth remembering that in the programme they did state that Beatrice Garraud was Alexander Cunningham Ryan's 'partner' not wife. So indicates he and she never formally married. Alexander and his wife Beatrice Pickford are living apart in 1911 - so perhaps the marriage broke up around the time of his imprisonment - may have been a factor as to why he was stealing instruments and pawning them.

AshkeJ
16-08-12, 11:58
Given the unusual nature of the surname Garraud, I wonder who is Edward Garraud who marries in 1910 to Sarah Sellers?

OC

Its only uncommon in England! I'm not saying that they're not related but the name itself is not particularly rare in France :)

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 11:59
Ah, thanks WoozleWife I must have missed the partner bit! I'll stop looking for a marriage now.

OC

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 12:01
AshkeJ -

I did mean it is uncommon in England, sorry if I didn't make that clear. As there is only a handful of Garraud events in the UK I think it quite likely they were related. I was also wondering if Pierre didn't actually die, just moved on.


OC

AshkeJ
16-08-12, 12:03
I have to say that I was slightly disappointed that they didn't mention Pierre in more detail. I know the research is all done before they film, but had I been researching my own family and found a French connection then I'd've been more interested initially in tracing that line, and finding why he'd left France, and who the family was there, rather than looking at the Ryder family.

I'd also like to have seen more on the Finkles, with maybe her meeting up with one/some (as they have done in several previous episodes).

And maybe this is just me ... but I kind of miss when the celebrities do their 'report' back to the family members (as per Jane Horrocks, Stephen Fry, etc)

But I have to say that I enjoyed this episode very much - possibly because of Samantha's energy and obvious amount of care (ignoring the copious amounts of hair flicking that had me screaming 'Get a grip!'). I hope that the other episodes will be as interesting. Some of the episodes in previous series' seemed to be a bit lacklustre!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 12:06
Yes, I agree with all that, AshkeJ. Some episodes seem to be padded out because there is nothing much to talk about, but this one could have had so much more added!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 12:11
Jessie Finkle is listed in a 1949 directory of Paterson, New Jersey, as widow of Harry, living with her son Harry jr:

City Directory (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2469&iid=11160085&fn=Jessie&ln=Finkle&st=d&ssrc=&pid=590422298)

I don't think it is very easy to find New Jersey deaths online, or at least I have never managed to find deaths for my relatives there, but the city directories can give some clues. In fact, sometimes a city directory will give the date of death.

Still there in 1952 but none of them are there in 1957.

AshkeJ
16-08-12, 12:18
AshkeJ -

I did mean it is uncommon in England, sorry if I didn't make that clear. As there is only a handful of Garraud events in the UK I think it quite likely they were related. I was also wondering if Pierre didn't actually die, just moved on.


OC

Oh no, I agree - it is uncommon in England!

Gosh - and there really are very few Garraud events! And the ones that aren't Sam's Garrauds are all descendants of Edward Moise Garraud and Sarah Sellers.

I had a quick look on FamilySearch for Pierre (and Edouard) Garraud, and Antonin, but nothing concrete leapt out at me



I don't think it is very easy to find New Jersey deaths online, or at least I have never managed to find deaths for my relatives there ...

One thing that frustrates me about researching my American family is the differences in the way each State viewed 'vital records' and the (at times) impossibility of accessing them in a meaningful way (almost that you need to know all of what you're looking for before you request it!). It is getting better - and I'm thankful for what's out there :D - but still frustrating nonetheless!

I think us Brits take a lot for granted!!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 12:25
Do we know for sure that Pierre Garraud was from France? Just wondering if he could be Canadian, or possibly American, since we know that Jessie went over to America before their marriage.

AshkeJ
16-08-12, 12:34
Do we know for sure that Pierre Garraud was from France? Just wondering if he could be Canadian, or possibly American, since we know that Jessie went over to America before their marriage.

I'm sure I saw on the marriage certificate that he was a French Subject ... But I wouldn't swear to it! I think Doris assumed that they were French ...

Is there a passenger list for when Jessie came back to the UK before the marriage to Pierre? (This may have been mentioned before and I missed it!)

Maybe the WDYTYA? researchers couldn't find anything definitive about him either, and that was the other reason he wasn't mentioned overly much in the programme!!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 12:36
I'm sure I saw on the marriage certificate that he was a French Subject ... But I wouldn't swear to it!



It doesn't say so on the copy on ancestry:
marriage certificate (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_196281-00170&fn=Pierre+Francois&ln=Garrand&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2681553)

WoozleWife
16-08-12, 12:41
There is no UK incoming or outgoing passenger list for Jessie Garraud (or variations) or Pierre.

Of course the passenger lists do not cover European ports - so if he came over from France unless the voyage originated from elsewhere like USA or Australia - we probably wont find the journey online.

JBee
16-08-12, 14:20
Did I see in the newspaper report about Antonio's death that there were 2 sisters?

maggie_4_7
16-08-12, 14:33
I liked this one but as usual the best leaves you screaming for more especially the loose ends what happened to Pierre and where did he come from, who are the Finkle descendents, where did Harry come from and most of all where did they all end up and why. To be honest this sort of tree needs 6 episodes to itself.

I also agree about missing the reporting back to family what has been found.

Rachel A
16-08-12, 16:43
Has anyone found Pierre's death... I wonder if he died in France (or USA?) :confused:

kiterunner
16-08-12, 16:45
I don't think anyone has found it yet, Rachel - nobody on here, anyway.

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 17:05
I've even looked for a death as Peter Garrow but not found anything.

Did we decide who Helen Finkle was?

OC

kiterunner
16-08-12, 17:07
Oh sorry, I forgot to say - I found a Helen of about the right age on the 1900 US census with parents Clarence and Ida, so I'm thinking they were right on WDYTYA about her being a cousin or some such.

Merry
16-08-12, 17:09
*Arrives very late at the party, bearing wine and chocolates*

Did I see in the newspaper report about Antonio's death that there were 2 sisters?

If you mean at the bottom of the first newspaper report - there was a bit about the grandfather stating that he felt the sisters at St Vincent's Orphanage were not at fault (words to that affect anyway). The word 'sisters' was at the left hand edge of the newspaper column.

kiterunner
16-08-12, 17:15
Similar names to Garraud in France include Garrau, Garreau, Garreaud, Garreault, Garreaux, and no doubt lots more I haven't found yet.

kiterunner
16-08-12, 17:18
Ah, glad to hear you've managed to watch it at last, Merry!

Merry
16-08-12, 17:19
Re Pierre being a French subject:

It doesn't say so on the copy on ancestry:
marriage certificate (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_196281-00170&fn=Pierre+Francois&ln=Garrand&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2681553)


The witness to the marriage, Pierre Boucheron (sp?) was from France. He is a clerk in 1891 (obviously only if this is the same man, but it may well be!)

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LNDRG12_185_188-0403&fn=Pierre+P&ln=Bucheron&st=d&ssrc=&pid=10790622

kiterunner
16-08-12, 17:23
That's good. But not many French deaths online, so we're not likely to find Pierre Garraud's death if he died in France.

Edit - though come to think of it, I think I heard that there are some sites but you have to know which departement to look in.

Merry
16-08-12, 17:23
Ah, glad to hear you've managed to watch it at last, Merry!

lol Thanks. Kids are out!!

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 17:34
OOOHHHHH look what I found!

Birth December 1918

Ryan, Gertrude J mmn _inkle (it's Finkle on the image) St Martin 1a 547.

This is presumably another child of Beatrice's?

OC

Merry
16-08-12, 17:38
Another thing - if Jessie was pregnant when she went to the US, then Harry Finkle must have been in the UK at the required time.If so, I wonder why she didn't travel to the US with him?

OC

I didn't take in the dates properly, but perhaps Harry wasn't the father of Jessie's unborn child. Maybe becoming pregnant without a partner/husband was the catalyst Jessie needed to go back to America. Perhaps she knew Harry from her previous visit before her marriage to Pierre?

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 17:42
Then Mr Finkle was a very kind man, lol, because he was named on the birth cert six months later as the father.

It looks as if Beatrice didn't stay long in the USA and returned some time between 1910 and 1918. A bit odd, considering there was a war on most of that time and sea travel would have been fairly restricted.

OC

kiterunner
16-08-12, 18:17
I must be missing something - has someone found Jessie travelling to the US in 1899, then?

kiterunner
16-08-12, 18:27
Is there a passenger list for when Jessie came back to the UK before the marriage to Pierre? (This may have been mentioned before and I missed it!)



Yes, this is it:
Passenger list on ancestry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1518&iid=30807_A000014-00293&fn=Jessie&ln=Ryder&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2185083)

Merry
16-08-12, 18:38
I must be missing something - has someone found Jessie travelling to the US in 1899, then?

I don't know.

Is there confusion about what was said on the programme about her being pregnant when her son died? Has that got mixed up with her being pregnant when she went to the States for the second time? I think we don't know exactly when she travelled, do we? I did visually miss part of the show as I was looking things up whilst listening, but I know my mind strayed a couple of times!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 18:49
As for Beatrice, there is a Miss Beatrice Finn, waitress, travelling from New York to Liverpool and arriving 1 Aug 1915, age 20, country of last permanent residence USA, country of intended future permanent residence Scotland, with an address given in Glasgow. The surname Finn isn't very clearly written. Could possibly be Beatrice?

kiterunner
16-08-12, 18:56
I Is there confusion about what was said on the programme about her being pregnant when her son died? Has that got mixed up with her being pregnant when she went to the States for the second time? I think we don't know exactly when she travelled, do we? I did visually miss part of the show as I was looking things up whilst listening, but I know my mind strayed a couple of times!

Could be. Don't forget the date that Beatrice was "received" at the convent was 29th July 1897, so I should think it more likely that Jessie went to America around then or before then.

Shona
16-08-12, 19:17
New to this site and forum - looks fascinating.

Re WDYTYA Samantha Womack

Some more info to add to the discussion:

in 1911, Alexander Ryan was boarding in Birmingham - occupation theatre orchestra musician. When he was discharged to pension in 1915, his occupation was given as a musician at the Olympia Theatre in Liverpool. In 1911, his wife Beatrice was living with her mother in Plymouth. She was a theatre waitress.

Jessie's sister was staying at the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1911. in 1901, she was listed as a theatre singer, while her sister Patti was a theatre dancer.

In 1929, Harry Finkle travelled to the UK - occupation: theatrical. The 1930 US census has a Harry Finkle as a cinema producer.

Still trying to find out more abt Pierre. Given Beatrice (or Berthe Marie Josepha Garraud) was born in the French Hospital, there must be a connection with France or a French-speaking country. Belgium? Switzerland?

JBee
16-08-12, 19:31
Thanks Merry for clearing that up!!!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 19:53
Welcome to the forum, Shona. Thanks for the information about Alexander Ryan. Oh yes, the French Hospital. I should think that does mean that Pierre was from France.

Rachel A
16-08-12, 19:57
Has anyone found Pierre's death... I wonder if he died in France (or USA?) :confused:


I don't think anyone has found it yet, Rachel - nobody on here, anyway.

Hmmm... it's just that I was wondering whether he was actually dead (as the newspaper report stated) or the couple had split up.

kiterunner
16-08-12, 20:01
Me too, Rachel.

Olde Crone
16-08-12, 20:13
Yes, me too, I thought he may have done a runner, or maybe even turned into Harry finkle, but that is a bit far-fetched.

So, what happened to Gertrude Ryan then? Was she mentioned on the programme. It does mean that Alexander and Beatrice had a relationship which lasted at least six years.

BTW - I think you are onto something Kate, with Beatrice Finn. You might not want to be called Finkle in the middle of the war.

OC

kiterunner
16-08-12, 20:15
I'm just having a look for Jessie Ryder in the 19th Century British Newspapers collection and there is an advert for Lester Collingwood's travelling pantomimes for the 1890/1 season: "Babes in the Wood" at the Grand Theatre, Walsall, with the cast list including Miss Jessie Ryder.

Made me laugh as Samantha Janus used to be in a TV series called "Babes in the Wood"!

kiterunner
16-08-12, 20:20
So, what happened to Gertrude Ryan then? Was she mentioned on the programme. It does mean that Alexander and Beatrice had a relationship which lasted at least six years.



I don't think they mentioned her.

Shona
17-08-12, 10:59
Following the death of Harry Finkle, Jessie married again. She married Albert S Cook in Devon in 1936.

In 1947, Jessie Cook sails from Southampton to New York on the Homeric with her son Harry, his wife (Elona) and their three daughters - Jeannette, Loretta and Barbara. She was 79 years old.

kiterunner
17-08-12, 11:29
That's strange, because she is listed as Finkle, widow of Harry, in a city directory for Paterson, NJ, in 1952! Unless I have the wrong people there...

kiterunner
17-08-12, 11:35
It does look like the same people if Elona is close enough to Edna! I wonder if Jessie and Albert got divorced and she changed her name back to Finkle?

1949 city directory of Paterson, NJ:

Finkle Harry L (Edna M) mgr NY h 20 Garrison
Jessie wid Harry r 20 Garrison

kiterunner
17-08-12, 11:40
1948 Paterson city directory has
Finkle Harry L (Edna M) h 20 Garrison

No entry for Jessie under either Cook or Finkle. The 1948 directory would likely have been compiled in 1947 so could it be that Harry jr and Edna went over to the UK to fetch Jessie back with them?

Olde Crone
17-08-12, 12:35
There is a death of an Albert S Cook (aged 57?) in 1947 in Rochford. Rochford is where Gertrude Ryan was born (daughter of Beatrice).

OC

Shona
17-08-12, 12:48
Edna - that's right. Misread it at first.

Checking the passenger lists, here's what I've found:

1 Jessie Finkle, 60, New York to Plymouth. Arrived 4 Aug 1936. Destination: Moorland Hotel, Exeter.

2 Jessie Finkle married Albert J Cook, July-Aug-Sept 1936. Devon Central Registration District.

3 Harry Finkle, 33, Edna Finkle, 29, and Harry Finkle, 1, arrive in Southampton from New York on 22 June 1937. Destination address: Churton Bishop, Exeter, Devon.

4 Sailing on the America from Southampton to New York, arriving on 24 April 1947:
Harry, 43, actor, Edna, 39, Harry, 11, Jeannnette, 7, Loretta, 6, Barabara, 4, Jessie Cook, 79, mother. Address where stayed in UK: Clifton Square, Swindon

I reckon that Alfred Cook may have died and the family took her back to the USA.

Wonder why the producers didn't get SW to meet any of the Finkles in the USA?

kiterunner
17-08-12, 14:19
So they stayed in the UK for the duration of WW2? I wonder why?

maggie_4_7
17-08-12, 19:02
I think perhaps Jessie came home maybe home sick perhaps or had family left here she wanted to see, Beatrice for one. We don't know when Beatrice came back do we? Dolly knew Jessie as Jessie Ryder so she probably knew a bit about her.

Maybe by the time Harry Junior (perhaps he came to find out about jobbing actors and what he could do in England) and family had decided to go back Japan had attacked Pearl Harbour and the USA was in the war you couldn't travel across the atlantlic I don't think or it was difficult or if you could it would be taking a chance the 'enemy' weren't beyond sinking passenger ships/liners So by the time they did perhap's Jessie's third husband had died and she decided to go back with them.

kiterunner
18-08-12, 12:22
Here is some unseen footage showing Samantha visiting the Barnum Museum to find out about the show that Jessie appeared in on her 1891 trip to America:

http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/episode/footage/samantha-womack-unseen-footage

kosmos66
19-08-12, 20:07
Having scanned the thead "Who Do You Think You Are - Samantha Womack"
I cant find any mention of the fact that Beatrice Finkle returned to the UK in Dec 1912.
Ancestry has the following:
Arriving Fishguard and Liverpool Dec 1912 from New York on The Mauretania.

Finkle xxxx (must be Harry) occupation (xxxxx) age 40
Finkle Jesse Housewife age 40
Finkle Beatrice age 17 (Beatrice is written in wrong column)
Finkle Gertrude age 11
Finkle Harry age 9
Finkle Gladys age 2

To find this record you need to search on Gertrude Finkle b. 1901.

maggie_4_7
19-08-12, 20:12
Thank you kosmos66 I don't think anyone could find it.

kiterunner
19-08-12, 20:15
Ooh, well done for finding that! We'd been trying to find out when she came back. I found a possible record but the one you have found is definitely her.


Looks like the rest of the names were badly mangled by ancestry's transcribers, but someone has recently submitted corrections. To be fair, the handwriting is pretty hard to make out and there is that problem where Beatrice's name was written in wrong.

kiterunner
19-08-12, 20:16
This is the first we've heard of Gladys, isn't it?

kiterunner
19-08-12, 20:21
FreeBMD has a Gladys F Finkle death Oct-Dec 1914 Dartford, Kent, age 4. :(

If that's the same Gladys, WDYTYA seem to have missed something important. Though I suppose we don't know for sure that she is Jessie's daughter as she could be some other relative they brought over with them again?

Olde Crone
19-08-12, 21:17
I'm beginning to think we only saw edited highlights of the research findings, lol - they missed out Beatrice's other daughter, although I suppose the descendants of that daughter may have declined to be involved in the programme.

Also - Jessie's age is a bit fluid isn't it. Did we find a birth record for her?

OC

maggie_4_7
19-08-12, 21:38
Well of course we only see edited highlights. Its only an hour.

Not sure 'anyone' looked for a birth for Jessie on this thread.

kiterunner
19-08-12, 22:33
Also - Jessie's age is a bit fluid isn't it. Did we find a birth record for her?



Maggie's right, we didn't look, but she is 4 on the 1871 census:

1871 census entry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=DEVRG10_2119_2122-0406&fn=Jessie&ln=Ryan&st=d&ssrc=&pid=10604402)

So her birth will be the one registered Oct-Dec 1866 Plymouth.

Olde Crone
19-08-12, 23:03
LOL, she knocked 10 years off her age to marry Mr Cook (who was 57 when he died, to her 81!)

OC

kosmos66
20-08-12, 11:49
Re the "unseen footage showing Samantha visiting the Barnum Museum to find out about the show that Jessie appeared in on her 1891 trip to America"

What they dont say in this clip is that Barnum's "Nero - The Destruction of Rome" in which Jessie Ryder performed in NY in 1891 was transferred from Olympia, London where it had run for a winter season in 1889-90. The show had a cast over over 2000 with some 200 dancers. It is highly likely that Jessie was part of the London show (age 21/22) and then transferred with it to NY (on the voyage to NY in 1891 she is with a group of about 20 "artists".

You will find an account of the LOndon and NY shows on p.4-6 of
http://www.c-s-p.org/flyers/9781847185662-sample.pdf

kiterunner
20-08-12, 12:04
That's interesting, Kosmos. I was wondering whether that was what happened.

Ann from Sussex
20-08-12, 16:48
I've only just got around to reading this thread and haven't got to the end of it yet so apologies if the point I'm about to make has been mentioned a bit later on.

I often want to know more about a seemingly interesting line that isn't followed up on WDYTYA but I do remember reading many series ago that the producers have to get permission from all existing family members before they can put anything into the programme. Now, whenever I'm tempted to think "why didn't they follow that line intead of this one?", I think that it maybe WAS an interesting story but someone, somewhere refused them permission to broadcast it. By the same token, I was hoping Samantha Womack would discover some living American relatives; maybe she did but they didn't want to appear.

silentmolly
20-08-12, 17:04
New to this so hope I haven't missed anything reading back. I've just noticed that Jessie Ryder's sister, Fanny Eliza (1864 - 1933) married an Albert John Cook (b abt 1865 Plymouth).

Ann from Sussex
20-08-12, 17:05
Did anyone else notice a great likeness between Jessie's newspaper photograph and Samantha's grandmother Dolly? Dolly is almost a clone of Jessie. And I thought it was highly likely that the boy soldier "J.Ryan" whose photo SW was shown in Glasgow was a relative of her's (they thought he might have been Alexander's younger brother). She looks SO like him...same shape eyes, nose and mouth!

kiterunner
20-08-12, 17:06
Just found this marriage, now that we know that the Finkles came over to England a few times:

Frank G De Beaurepaire / Gertrude A Finkle Apr-Jun 1923 Pancras.

Then according to ancestry, there is a death in Victoria, Australia, in 1947 of Gert Anita Beaurepaire, age 47, parents Harry P Fineel and Jessie Alma Ryder.

kiterunner
20-08-12, 17:08
New to this so hope I haven't missed anything reading back. I've just noticed that Jessie Ryder's sister, Fanny Eliza (1864 - 1933) married an Albert John Cook (b abt 1865 Plymouth).

That's interesting. So Jessie's third husband could be related to him? Or even be him?

Shona
20-08-12, 17:08
Does anyone have info on when Jessie Ryder Garraud Finkle Cook died? Ditto her husband Harry Finkle?

silentmolly
20-08-12, 17:11
That's interesting. So Jessie's third husband could be related to him? Or even be him?

Looks possible and I agree with the Beaurepaire connection :)

kiterunner
20-08-12, 17:16
Does anyone have info on when Jessie Ryder Garraud Finkle Cook died? Ditto her husband Harry Finkle?

I think the last sighting we have of Jessie so far is in a 1952 city directory of Paterson, New Jersey, USA, using the surname Finkle. I don't think we found Harry's death yet either, but I do know that there aren't very many New Jersey deaths online for that period.

silentmolly
20-08-12, 17:18
Another snippet, according to voters' registration lists - in 1922 Harry Philip Finkle was sharing a house at 40 Guilford Road, Holborn with his brother-in-law Archibald Ryder and a John H Corre. Harry was at the same house in the previous year sharing with Max and Sophia Mecham Ullman, John H Corrie and Lala A T Hody.

Olde Crone
20-08-12, 17:40
So the death I found is not him, sorry folks, I thought his middle initial was S!

It does seem as if Jessie married her sister's husband.

OC

Olde Crone
20-08-12, 18:03
Fanny's death maybe?

Fanny E A Cook (68) Jun 1933 Newton Abbot

OC

Shona
20-08-12, 18:39
I think the last sighting we have of Jessie so far is in a 1952 city directory of Paterson, New Jersey, USA, using the surname Finkle. I don't think we found Harry's death yet either, but I do know that there aren't very many New Jersey deaths online for that period.


Could Jessie have returned to the UK in the 1950s? I've found a death record of a Jessie M Cook in Surrey in 1958, aged 92. Which fits in with the birth year of 1866.

Certainly an interesting family!

kiterunner
20-08-12, 19:11
Could Jessie have returned to the UK in the 1950s? I've found a death record of a Jessie M Cook in Surrey in 1958, aged 92. Which fits in with the birth year of 1866.



Could be though I haven't found a passenger arrival.

Shona
20-08-12, 19:23
Could be though I haven't found a passenger arrival.

I can't find one either.

Olde Crone
20-08-12, 20:03
Maybe she flew!

OC

kosmos66
20-08-12, 20:20
No one seems to have picked up on the fact that in 1936 Jessie Finkle married the Albert John Cook who was the widower of her sister Fanny.

Fanny Eliza A Ryder married Albert John Cook at Pancras (London) in Oct -Dec 1889.
The 1891 Census has Albert (age 26) and Fanny (age 26= b.1865) living back in Plymouth with Fanny's (and Jessie's) mother Fanny Ryder (age 48).

Fanny would appear to have died in Newton Abbot in 1933 aged 68 (= b.1865).
Thereafter Jessie Finkle travels from NY to Plymouth arriving 4 Aug 1936 and
marries Albert John Cook in July-Sep 1936. At that time Jessie (b. Oct-Dec 1866, Plymouth) would have been aged 69 and Albert aged 71.

It is not clear when Albert John Cook died (too many Cooks ...), but it was obviously not the Albert S Cook who died in Rochford in Oct-Dec 1947.

kiterunner
20-08-12, 20:24
Yes, that's one of the topics we've been discussing over the last couple of pages of this thread, Kosmos.

kosmos66
20-08-12, 20:54
Sorry, missed that page!

Shona
21-08-12, 11:54
Samantha's father was born Noel Robert Janes in 1949. At some point he changed his name to Janus.

Noel's father was Robert William Brough Janes. In 1939, RWBJ married Dorothy G Whitton. In 1952, RWBJ married Marion MacDonald. One of his children from this relationship was Angie MacDonald who went on to marry George Best.

Noel birth in the indexes state that his mother's maiden name was Janes or Cunningham-Ryan. I cross-checked this and his mother is Beatrice Cunningham-Ryan.

In 1953, Beatrice appears on the electoral register at 5 Queen Anne's Terrace in Kensington. Possibly a hotel.

Beatrice Cunningham-Ryan died in 1965.

Doris Cunningham-Ryan - who we saw at the beginning of the show - married Douglas J Heatherington in 1949.

When Samantha went to see Dolly in Brighton, I'm sure Dolly was introduced as her father's mother.

kiterunner
21-08-12, 12:00
Noel birth in the indexes state that his mother's maiden name was Janes or Cunningham-Ryan. I cross-checked this and his mother is Beatrice Cunningham-Ryan.
Can you explain what you cross-checked against what, please, Shona?



When Samantha went to see Dolly in Brighton, I'm sure Dolly was introduced as her father's mother. Yes, that's right, she was Noel's mother.

Shona
21-08-12, 13:15
Scratch that bit about Beatrice - the error of a nove.

Using Ancestry:

Robert Janes born to Robert William Brough James and xxxxxxx Cunningham-Ryan JFM 1949.

Doris Cunningham-Ryan married Douglas Heatherington OND 1949.

kiterunner
21-08-12, 13:17
Yes, the reason that Noel's mother's maiden name is shown as Janes or Cunningham-Ryan on the birth index would be that Doris was calling herself Janes but was not married to Robert Janes, so her name will be shown on the birth certificate as Doris Janes otherwise Cunningham-Ryan, whereas if she was married to Robert it would say Doris Janes formerly Cunningham-Ryan and her maiden name on the index would just be Cunningham-Ryan.

Shona
21-08-12, 16:33
In earlier postings, people wondering about Jessie Ryder's mother, Fanny Ryder. Hope this helps:

1891 census 42 Clifon Place, Plymouth

Albert J Cook, 26, post office clerk
Fanny E A Cook, 26,
Cyril Cook, under 1
Fanny Ryder, mother-in-law, married, 48, vocalist (music), born Devonport

When Fanny marries Albert in London, Alfred Ryder, acountant and Thaddeus Ryder are witnesses. Thaddeus Albert's brother.

Perhaps from this we can assume that Fanny was the one who pushed three of her daughters on to the stage.

Can't find Fanny in the 1901 census.

1911 census - 45 Upper Bedford Place, Russell Square

Fanny Ryder, 70, widow, boarder
Patty Auld, 28, daughter, married, boarder, manicurist [? unclear]

Patty married James Morrison Auld in 1902.

Also found these trans Atlantic crossings:

Sept 1925 Southampton to New York
Harry Finkler, director, Jessie Finkler,
Address in UK: Victoria Hotel, London

Feb 1929 Southampton to New York
Harry Finckley, theatrical, Jessie Finckley, Harry Finckley, actor,
Address in UK: 82 Guildford Street, London

Lorraine Karen
05-07-15, 18:39
Dear Genealogists Forum - Who Do You Think You Are, Samantha Womack episode (Jessie Almer/Ryder/Finkle/Garraud)

I have found Jessie Almer sailing to America in 1897, however, you would need to look up Ruth Jezard (Jessie Almer is found just above Ruth on the UK outward bound passenger list travelling with a group of theatricals to America).

UK Outward Bound Passenger List
Name: Miss Ruth Jezard
Birth Date: abt 1876
Departure Date: 7 Aug 1897
Port of Departure: Southampton, England
Destination Port: New York, USA
Ship Name: Paris

This makes sense as Jessie left her daughter Beatrice at Nazareth House on 29 July 1897.

"Samantha visited Nazareth House and was shown the Children's Admission Register which showed that Beatrice's parents were Peter Garraud and Jessie Ryder and that she was received on the 29th July 1897 and taken away by her grandparents in May 1902".

This also makes sense as Jessie is reported in the New York Times on 15 August 1897 (do we know what Jessie (and Ruth)

http://www.jclibrary.org/picture-galleries/nj-room-stars-as-backdrop-again-for-the-tv-show-who-do-you-think-you-are

"Cynthia Harris, manager of the New Jersey Room, had done research on Samantha’s great-grandmother prior to the video shoot. In an August 15, 1897 article in the Theater section of The New York Times, reference was made to her great-grandmother, by maiden name, “Miss Jessie Almer has been over to America before, as the clown in Barnum’s Circus, and by right of larger experience, she was much respected by the other members of the group. They met at the pier, however, by a representative of the Academy of Music, who took care that none of them should stray away. Once he lost his count.”

Barnum's circus came to England in 1897 - Ruth's family lived in this part of London at this time.

http://circusnews.com/?p=1115

"Most outstanding of the foreign tours was the five-year stay of the Barnum & Bailey Circus in European countries from the fall of 1897 through the 1902 season.

Several fine route books were inspired by this tour. Most notable is “Four Years in Europe with Barnum & Bailey,” by Harvey L. Watkins, a member of the staff. This book recorded the principal events of the four seasons, with maps showing the routes, photographs of staff members and performers, and the complete personnel for the tour. It is to be regretted that the 1902 season was omitted.

The circus was transported to England at the close of the tenting season in America in 1897 and played an indoor winter engagement at the Olympia in London. The show took to the road on 67 specially built railroad cars in the spring of 1898 and spent two years on tour in Great Britain. This tour inspired another route book entitled “Tour of United Kingdom” by J. Austin, for the 1897-98 season, and J. W. Potts issued a route book for 1899, also entitled “Tour of the United Kingdom.”

Ruth/Ruby Thrasher/Jezard married Albert Edward Court in 1900 who was Chief Of Staff of the London Coliseum in 1905. Ruth's sister Louisa Thrasher married Percy Atkins in 1905 who was a theatrical business manager at the Lyceum Theatre in 1905.

Ruth eventually emigrated to America in 1905/1912 according to her inconsistent US census records and 'married' Edward Warren Congdon in 1910 - a booking manager for the Alcazar Theatre in San Fransisco and who worked for Bert Levey a vaudeville agent in 1917/1918 - Ruth died in 1968 California, Edward died in 1919 after signing up to be a WWI soldier in 1917/1918.

Ruth performed with Dan Leno and Herbert Campbell in the lavish Drury Lane Theatre pantomimes in 1898 and 1899 and is remembered in Herbert Campbell's memoirs.
Charlie Chaplin would watch these pantomimes honing his comic skills from Dan Leno - as Ruth later emigrated to America we wondered if she knew Charlie Chaplin and also became involved with silent movies.

Ruth's first husband Albert Edward Court is still alive in England in 1916 according to his WWI soldiers records working at Brook Green Skating Rink - Albert had been working as a rink manager in the 1911 UK census - we believe Albert died in 1923.

Ruth is found living with her sister-in-laws Ethel Congdon and Fanny Congdon in the US 1940 census and had been living with them since at least 1935 and known as Edward Warren Congdon's widow in the 1941 US Los Angeles California city directory.

Lorraine Karen
05-07-15, 19:29
Jessie (and Ruth) have been brought to New York with The Coryphees to perform in 'Nature'

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9401EED81638E733A25756C1A96E9C94669ED7CF

kiterunner
05-07-15, 19:35
Hi and welcome to the forum, Lorraine.
Very interesting post. Thanks. I have had to reread this thread from the beginning as the episode was shown about 3 years ago. A real blast from the past!
The only mention of the name "Almer" that I can see previously in this thread is where Jessie's middle name was given as Alma on her daughter Gertrude's death registration. Jessie's maiden name was Ryder.
On that passenger list from 1897 (link below), Jessie Almer's age is given as 21 (Jessie Ryder would have been quite a bit older than that, but she doesn't seem to have been very truthful about her age) and she is in the "single" column, but since it is the single men column instead of the single women column, same for all the "Misses" in the group, something is definitely wrong! Looks promising. I assume the researchers in that article you posted must have had some information that Jessie Ryder was Jessie Almer.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2997/40610_B000255-00191/?pid=37308995

Lorraine Karen
05-07-15, 20:03
Hi and thank you for your welcome!

Our ancestor Ruth Jezard was also not truthful about her age - she was actually born in 1879 Westminster, London but says she is older when she travelled in 1897 - but when she emigrated to America in 1905/1912 (inconsistencies on the US censuses) she became much younger - actresses!

These posts are about Ruth and her theatrical family - my husband's grandfather Horace Courtenay (Ruth's nephew) was illegitimate and rumoured to be the son of an Earl - we had no idea that the family were theatrical and we had no idea that Horace's mother Alice Thrasher had three sisters (Ruth, Louisa and Eliza).

However, Horace's son later remembered as a young five-year old boy meeting an Uncle Percy who was married to Ruth's sister Louisa (Percy Frederick Atkins detailed in these posts) who was in his 80's by then - and also remembered the family talking of a Cousin Leslie who was Horace's cousin (Edward Leslie Court son of Ruth Jezard detailed in these posts).

https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/86053-EDWARD-WARREN-CONGDON-AND-BERT-LEVEY?p=612447#post612447

http://www.forum.familyhistory.uk.com/showthread.php?t=23000

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=724692.new;topicseen#new