1911 census

[Rachel A]

Please can someone find Hugh Dorian born 1903 Liverpool on the 1911 census.

Many thanks :)

[maggie_4_7]

Who do you think his parents would be?

Because here is

Hugh Dorian
Age in 1911: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1903
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 12 Caradoc Square
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: School
Registration district: Liverpool
Registration District Number: 453
Sub-registration district: Scotland
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Piece: 22124
Household Members:
Name Age
Hugh Dorian 35
Fanny Dorian 34
Gladys Dorian 9
Hugh Dorian 8
Francis Lilian Dorian 6
Nellie Dorian 4
Dorothy Dorian

[Rachel A]

Thanks Maggie, much appreciated :)

[maggie_4_7]

Hope I got the right stuff.

You're welcome.

[Rachel A]

Thanks Maggie :)

The father was also born Hugh born c1876 Greenock, Scotland.

I've tried to do a free search on Scotlands People, but no results are coming up for births. Can anyone help please.

This is my uncle's paternal family and he suspects that this is a Greek name, so I'm hoping to find the ancestor who came over from Greece, possibly into the port of Glasgow.

Hugh Dorian married Fanny Jones in Liverpool in Sept qtr 1898.

Many thanks :)

[kiterunner]

The Hugh Dorian / Fanny Jones marriage is on Ancestry and Hugh's father was yet another Hugh, occupation Sugar Boiler. One of the witnesses was a Marion Margaret Dorian.

[Tilly Mint]

Not what you asked for, Rachel, but i found this....

Marriage
Record
DORIAN Hugh 1879 Hugh Dorian, sugar boiler, to Mary, elder
daughter of D. Nicolson, Greenock, at St
Timothy‘s Liverpool on 18th March 1879
(Greenock Telegraph 21.03.1879 &
Greenock Advertiser 21.3.1879).

[kiterunner]

So it's possible that this could be Marion with her parents in 1901 (she gets married in 1904):
3 Bewley Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool
Hugh Dorian Head M 56 General Labourer Ireland
Mary Do Wife M 42 Scotland
James " Son S 21 ???'s Labourer Lanc Liverpool
William " " S 14 Railway Messenger Do
Edward " " S 11 Do
Marion " Daur S 18 Holder Stitcher Bookbinding Do

Will see if I can find them on the earlier censuses now I know they should be in England, and see if they have a child Hugh with them on those.

[kiterunner]

Yes, indeed - in 1891 they are at the same address as in 1901 and there is a Hugh age 17 Railway Clerk born Greenock Scotland. The father Hugh is a Foreman in Sugar Works born Down Ireland and Mary is born Greenock Scotland.

[kiterunner]

So, it looks as though the Hugh who got married in 1898 was born a few years before his father married Mary. Looking on Scotland's People in the Statutory Births, there is one birth for a Hugh Dorian between 1871 and 1877, and it turns out to be in 1873 but not in Renfrewshire. I'll try each county in turn to see which one it is.

[kiterunner]

The 1873 Hugh Dorian birth is in Glasgow City, Glasgow district (Greenock isn't all that far from Glasgow).

[kiterunner]

James Dorian's birth was registered Apr-Jun 1880 West Derby district, so you would think the family would be in the Liverpool area on the 1881 census but I haven't found them yet.

[kiterunner]

By the way, sorry to say it is looking less likely to be a Greek name with the Hugh born about 1845 coming from County Down in Ireland.

[kiterunner]

Just realised the marriage that Tilly Mint found in post #7 might be on ancestry, and it is - with Hugh being a bachelor age 35, father James Dorian, farmer. And Mary is a spinster age 24, father Donald Nicholson, waterman (not sure whether that occupation is right, could be watchman or something.)

[kiterunner]

Aha, ancestry has a baptism for a Hugh Doran 15 Apr 1880 at Liverpool St Peter, parents Hugh and Mary, abode Everton, father's occupation Sugar Boiler, date of birth 23 Oct 1873.

[kiterunner]

Then James Dorian was baptised 2 May 1880 at Liverpool All Saints, not managed to work out what the address is yet (image attached). There is a Daniel baptised in 1885 and they are at 3 Bewley Street by then (not there in 1881).

[kiterunner]

Okay, they are listed as Darian in 1881.

27 Amelia St., Everton, Lancashire
Hugh Darian Head Mar 37 Sugar Boiler Ireland
Mary Do Wife Mar 26 Scotland
Hugh Do Son 7 Scholar Do
James Do Son 1 Liverpool.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, FamilySearch has that 1873 Glasgow birth - Hugh Dorian, born 10 Dec 1873, Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, father Hugh Dorian, mother Mary Queen. I should think it would be worth looking at the image on Scotland's People to see the full details and hope that helps to ascertain whether it's the same Hugh or not (and if so, how many Marys there were!).

[Tilly Mint]

Kelly's Directory 1894 - Hugh is down as living at 3 Bewley St - Sugar Boiler

[Tilly Mint]

Just found this as well.......http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~meaneypj/Co_Down_Stuff/Down_strays/England_Down_strays/1881_Strays/Lancashire_1881_I-Mc.htm

Lancashire, 1881 Down Strays.

MC GRAW, Patrick, Head, Married, M, 31, b 1850, Rigger (Ship), Down, 27 Amelia Street, Everton

I wonder if he was a relation ......

[Tilly Mint]

Also found this....1st one.

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/marriages1895.html

And another snippet, don't know if he fits in with your Dorians as there doesn't appear to be a lot of this name ...it's The Atlantic.

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/miscpassengerlistsoct1854.html

[Rachel A]

You guys are brilliant, thank you so much :) :)

He did say about an Irish link and a Mary Queen, so that does tie in thank you :)

I don't know about the Greek connection though. I certainly grew up thinking that he had one, and he thinks there's one too [insert confused smilie several times]

I'm driving home tomorrow, so I'll unravel this over the next few days for him.

If anyone's able to take the Irish connection back further, I'd be really grateful.

Many thanks again xx

[kiterunner]

I haven't managed to get my own Irish lines back very far at all, Rachel. I had a look on FamilySearch earlier on to see if I could see a baptism for Hugh Dor(i)an in County Down with a father James but didn't see him. I'll have a look on some other sites but a lot of Irish records haven't survived.

Also if the name originated as Doran, there may be too many of them!

[Rachel A]

Thanks Kite, you've worked really hard on this for me, thank you :)

I'm wondering if they left Ireland because of the potato famine?

[kiterunner]

Okay, Ancestry Ireland has a couple of James Dorian births in County Down, one in 1810 with father William and one in 1814 with father Edward. No Hugh Dorians though, and no Hugh Dorans with father's name James.

[kiterunner]

Ancestry Ireland also has a marriage for a James Dorian in County Down in 1839.

Sorry, forgot to post link before. Ancestry Ireland is not connected to Ancestry, by the way.

http://www.ancestryireland.com

[kiterunner]

Looking at the PRONI website (Public Record Office of Northern Ireland), they have a Hugh Dorrian listed at Lisbane, County Down, in 1831. Could be related?

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives.htm

They also have the will of a James Dorian, farmer, of Drumaraghan, Co Down, who died 1 Feb 1895. But he only mentions sons called John, James, and William. No mention of a Hugh. But there seem to be a lot more Dorrians than Dorians on there. I'll have a look through those... nothing obvious, but it might be worth you having a look through and see if there is anything useful in there. Some have images and some don't.

[kiterunner]

There are a couple of James Dorians in County Down on Griffith's Valuation, and quite a few James Dorrians. We really need a way to connect one of them to Hugh though!

[Rachel A]

Much appreciated, Kite. You've done so well with this :)

[kiterunner]

There is a Hugh Dorian death registration Apr-Jun 1902 W Derby age 56, so I don't think we will find him on the 1911 census with the name of his birth parish in County Down. :(

[Tilly Mint]

Another James here...about half way down.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yN4KMNNJbwQJ:www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/Cumberland81.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SDl--tgzdz4J:www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp%3FHOUSEHOLD_CODE%3D1881BR_543 8440%26HOUSEHOLD_SUB%3D1%26frompage%3D99+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

[Rachel A]

Ooh, FamilySearch has that 1873 Glasgow birth - Hugh Dorian, born 10 Dec 1873, Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, father Hugh Dorian, mother Mary Queen. I should think it would be worth looking at the image on Scotland's People to see the full details and hope that helps to ascertain whether it's the same Hugh or not (and if so, how many Marys there were!).

Sorry, I've only just got round to looking at this again, properly, since I was away :o

Here's the image of the birth:-

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q28/racheileanderson/Hugh_Dorian_Birth_Certificate_1873crop.jpg

I'm a bit confused here as I'm not used to looking at these Scottish entries. I can make out the name Queen under Mary's name and a date in 1861 - is this their marriage details? He did mention to me the name of Mary Queen, as someone on GR provided info some years ago to him, but we don't know if it's correct :confused:

[kiterunner]

Yes, if you look at the Example of a Statutory Birth Image on Scotland's People, it shows you the column headings and column 4 is Name, Surname & Rank or Profession of Father, Name and Maiden Surname of Mother, Date and Place of Marriage.

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/images/famousscots/birthCharlesRMcIntosh1868.tif

The nearest marriage I can see in the Irish civil marriage index is Hugh Dornan / Mary Green 1861 Lisburn district. But FamilySearch has the exact date of that marriage as 5 Sep 1861 at Ballinderry, Antrim, not 14th Feb, so it could be a different couple. Fathers' names are shown as John Dornan and James Green.

If it was a Roman Catholic marriage, it wouldn't be on the Irish Civil Registration index as it was before 1863.

I have to admit I can't remember the details of this thread, so will have to reread it to see whether that birth registration shows it is the right family or not!

[kiterunner]

So the Hugh we are looking for was a sugar boiler in 1879 and a bachelor to boot. Makes it unlikely that he was a coal dealer in 1873 who got married in 1861, doesn't it?

[kiterunner]

Found the family from that birth certificate on the 1871 Scottish census at 259 High St, Glasgow (same address as on the cert), transcribed by ancestry as Dorran:
Hugh 40 born Ireland, Mary 35 born Ireland, Bernard 9 born Ireland, Edward 7 born Ireland, Mary 4 born Glasgow and Daniel 2 months born Glasgow.

They are still there in 1881 (surname Doran) although there is no Hugh jr. But this is definitely the family the cert was for.
There is a Catherine 6 and Isabella 4.

So we can rule out that birth. Back to the drawing board...

[Rachel A]

Thanks Kite, so this GR contact made the mistake of assuming this marriage was the correct one. Have you had any luck finding Hugh Dorian (born c1845 Ireland) and Mary (presumably Nicholson) on the 1871 (Scottish?) census?

[kiterunner]

Thanks Kite, so this GR contact made the mistake of assuming this marriage was the correct one. Have you had any luck finding Hugh Dorian (born c1845 Ireland) and Mary (presumably Nicholson) on the 1871 (Scottish?) census?

Not yet. Will have another go now.

[Rachel A]

Thanks Kite, I appreciate your help :)

[kiterunner]

Okay, there is a Mary Nicholson on the 1861 census in Greenock, Renfrewshire, born Greenock, age 9, parents Donald and Mary. She is the eldest child, so that fits with the info on the marriage to Hugh. She isn't with them in 1871, but there is a likely Mary who is a servant in Greenock, age 28.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, why did I never spot this before?!

On FamilySearch, there is a birth for Hugh Doran Nicholson, 23 Oct 1873, Greenock, Renfrew, mother Mary Nicholson. Also available on SP in the Statutory Births - just search for Hugh Nicholson born 1873 Greenock, Renfrewshire and 1 match comes up, I assume that's him.

[kiterunner]

But as for Hugh born c1845 Ireland, I can't see him in 1871. But of course he could still have been in Ireland then.

[Rachel A]

Ooh, why did I never spot this before?!

On FamilySearch, there is a birth for Hugh Doran Nicholson, 23 Oct 1873, Greenock, Renfrew, mother Mary Nicholson. Also available on S P in the Statutory Births - just search for Hugh Nicholson born 1873 Greenock, Renfrewshire and 1 match comes up, I assume that's him.

Ah brilliant, thank you, that fits really well... firstly that it confirms place of birth as Greenock, and not Glasgow... and that combination of surnames does suggest a child born out of wedlock but still acknowledging the father :)

[Rachel A]

I'm just sending all this in an email to my uncle :)

Sorry to be a pain, Kite, but are you able to find Mary Nicholson's birth please?

It's just that her year of birth tends to differ between censuses - c1859 in 1901. c1855 in 1881 and c1852 in 1861. (I think it's probably her in 1871 working as a servant but suspect the employer wasn't that accurate completing the census).
What was her given age in 1891 please?

It's just that now we've discounted the other Hugh Dorian and Mary Queen, everything on this thread points to Hugh Dorian & Mary Nicholson being his great grandparents... I'm making a good job of explaining that, but this age difference is confusing me!

Thanks for your help :)

[kiterunner]

Mary is 35 on the 1891 census. Not particularly unusual for a woman to knock a couple more years off her age each time the census came round.

Sorry, I thought I typed some more about the 1871 entry like "it would be worth checking the image to see whether it really says 18 as this is just from ancestry's transcription"! I must never have actually posted that bit up! I'll see if I can check it on SP without paying to view...
There is also a Mary Nickolson working as a servant in Greenock age 19 but ancestry says she was born Isle of Skye.

[kiterunner]

SP says there is a Mary Nicholson age 28 in Greenock in 1871 so maybe that one isn't her after all. But it's hard to find people on the Scottish censuses when they're away from their families because of the fact that we can't look at the images (without paying per view) to check transcriptions.

[kiterunner]

I haven't managed to find Mary's birth yet.

Some details of the family from 1861 for reference:
Donald Nicholson 32 born Strath, Invernessshire, Mary 34 born Slate, Invernessshire, children Mary 9, Donald 6, Peter 4, Ann 2, all born Greenock.
Then in 1871 they also have John 9. Marion 6 and James 4.

FamilySearch is being very annoying this evening but I have found a Peter Nicholson 20 Sep 1856 Greenock, parents Donald Nicholson and Mary Ann Martin. There are also some children on Donald Macnicol and Mary Mcvicar who nearly fit so I will try all those names now and see what I come up with.

[kiterunner]

Sorry to say it looks as though you might have to use credits on SP to find out more about Mary's family to be able to look for her birth - a birth registration for one of the younger children to get mother's maiden name, for instance.

[Rachel A]

Not to worry, thanks Kite :)

Sorry to be pedantic about the age. I just want to doubly make sure we have the right Mary, especially as we've discovered that his ancestor isn't Mary Queen, as he was previously advised.

Thank you so much for all of your help with this one, Kite and to everyone who helped too... he is really pleased with what everyone has been able to uncover on this thread :) :) :) :)

[Rachel A]

BTW... just found Mary in 1911...

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/RG14_22500_0703_03/23678991?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

:)

[kiterunner]

By which time she is only 51!!

[Rachel A]

Yes I know!!! :d :d

My husband had a never-married great great aunt, who claimed to be 39 in every census for around 30 years! :d

... which made her more difficult to find :(:(

[Wonders if I should adopt this attitude... :D]