View Full Version : What do you think?
Olde Crone
21-10-09, 21:26
Further to my McCloud thread (what do you mean, you don't remember!) I now have a birth and death cert for the "wrong" Charlotte Elizabeth McCloud, and the RIGHT birth cert for Charlotte's replacement sister, Lottie McCloud.
Lottie's daughter would very much like to have her mother's death record amended (correct age and name) and that bit is straightforward I think, as we have absolute documented proof now.
However, her daughter is worried that if she does this, the Pensions Office will try to reclaim the four years' pension they gave Lottie in error (They approached Lottie and told her she was 60, she told them she wasn't, blah blah blah, but she had never seen her birth cert).
I personally think it is unlikely in the extreme that the Pensions Office would even have records of payments they made in the 1950s, let alone any paperwork, but what do you think, considering it was THEIR error, not hers.
Lottie had such a sad life, her daughter feels she would at least like her to have the correct name and dob, otherwise it is almost as if she never existed.
OC
Isn't there a registrar you know who you could ask? If they don't advise the pension people then that would be the end of it. But maybe they would? I don't know.
The trouble is, you only have the word of the family that Lottie didn't go to the pension people and show her older sister's cert and demand a pension! (now saying that is what happened....but....)
MargaretMarch
21-10-09, 21:51
Having worked for the Dept of Work and Pensions in the past I know they have the scope to write off debts caused by official error if the individual could not have known it was a mistake - like getting 2 lots of pension in one week!
In this case I can't see that they would want to calculate and try to recover such an error, particularly as they were challenged at the time. They would still know the pension rate payable at the time, although I doubt they could say precisely what had been paid in an individual case.
In any event why would anyone report this matter to them? they would not have any connection to the GRO and there is not any system for reporting such a change through official channels.
It's all too long ago anyway, civil debt and all that!
Margaret
Olde Crone
21-10-09, 22:18
That's my feeling too, Margaret - could they be bothered to chase a fifty-year old debt, and how much would it be anyway!
A bit more of the story has emerged today from Lottie's daughter. In 1929, Lottie's adored brother died of TB. Five weeks later, her last remaining sibling, sister Florence, fell downstairs and died. (J didn't know when, but the certs came today confirming this)
Lottie had a nervous breakdown and was given electric shock treatment, which impaired her memory. However, she insisted she was four years younger than the Pensions Dept said she was, even after they produced her birth cert. The family thought she was "confused" and had lost four years of her life due to the shock treatment, but Lottie was right all along!
Now to find her brother's Will - he left her "a lot of money". J wants to know if this was true, and if so, why did J and her sibs have such a poverty-stricken childhood.
OC
kiterunner
21-10-09, 22:21
If you think the will would be listed on the National Probate Calendar, OC, I can have a look. What was his full name?
Olde Crone
21-10-09, 22:29
That's very kind of you, Kate, thankyou.
Charles Sidney McCloud, died 10 February 1929, aged 23, Kings Norton, Birmingham. (Usual address 23 Thornton Rd, Washwood Heath, Birmingham, Grocer's assistant).
OC
Olde Crone
21-10-09, 22:33
Merry
Thing is, a correction to a cert has to be passed upwards to the GRO for approval, who are now unofficially acting as the Fraud Squad, lol, and I have no idea whether they are now required to inform other government departments of any corrections etc.
Still, I will talk to my pet registrar tomorrow. I'm sure he will say the same as Margaret, it would not be financially worth the Pensions Dept attempting to reclaim this money, especially as the recipient is dead!
OC
It hadn't occurred to me it was so long ago Lottie died, so I agree, I can't see this getting followed up and how much would she have got in any case? OH says he thinks his nan received about £6 or £7 a week in 1961! (but may have been less)
Surely this would be ruled out under the Statute of Limitations? ie going back 6 years unless there is proof of fraud? I cannot imagine that any records survive in any case of how much she was actually paid.
kiterunner
22-10-09, 11:50
I searched 1929 through to 1937, all the different spellings of the surname that I could think of (including some which don't exist!) and nothing, sorry. It does seem unlikely that a grocer's assistant age 23 would leave much of an estate, though, doesn't it?
P.S. I did see what must be my favourite surname ever during my searching though, Macmagillicudy. Surely the "Mac" is unnecessary!
MargaretMarch
22-10-09, 12:13
Merry
Thing is, a correction to a cert has to be passed upwards to the GRO for approval, who are now unofficially acting as the Fraud Squad, lol, and I have no idea whether they are now required to inform other government departments of any corrections etc.
Still, I will talk to my pet registrar tomorrow. I'm sure he will say the same as Margaret, it would not be financially worth the Pensions Dept attempting to reclaim this money, especially as the recipient is dead!
OC
I hadn't twigged that we were talking about someone who has died - there is no way they would follow this up, there's too much else to do for living pensioners and who would they claim from???
No I wouldn't even bother asking anyone there is nothing to fear from making this change.
Margaret
samesizedfeet
22-10-09, 18:23
I don't think there is any need to worry.
If they decided any money was owed it would actually be owed by a person who is now deceased and any debts you have die with you, there is no basis for passing them on to surviving relatives.
The only way they could have done this was to put in for their debt to be paid from the estate of the deceased (and then only if the estate had any money, if there's no money then there's nothing to pay it with).
Claims have to be made before probate/letter of admons is granted. If you don't get it in by then you've missed the boat and can't claim your money.
Olde Crone
22-10-09, 20:50
Kate
Thankyou very much for looking. Charles, as the eldest child, apparently had money left to him by his father, who died in 1913. I wonder if that money was in trust or something and came to Lottie because she was the last surviving member of the family?
Yes, on balance, I doubt if the Pensions Dept would even consider chasing an unknown, very small debt!
Lottie did not approach the Pensions Dept, they approached her. She was adamant that she was not 60, but they insisted. So worried about all this was she, that she did not cash the pension for many months as she was convinced the Pension Dept would realise their mistake and want their money back.
As Lottie was in dire financial straits, her daughter contacted the Pensions Office and asked if they could tell her how to get a copy of her mother's birth cert to convince her mother of her real age and the Pension Office gave J the details to order the cert. When it came back, it had the correct parents AND the correct birthday (ist October). Lottie had never been aware that she had had an older sister called Charlotte who had died, and whose birthday was also 1st October, so grudgingly accepted that the cert was hers, even though she said she didn't have a middle name of Elizabeth.
The one thing which is niggling me here, is that Lottie worked during the 1950s and must have paid a stamp etc, and therefore must have provided her employer with a national insurance number....where did that come from and who told her it was her number??
OC
kiterunner
22-10-09, 21:50
Would you like me to look up the father's will next time I go, OC? Though it probably won't be till after half-term.
Olde Crone
22-10-09, 23:09
Thankyou Kate, but I don't have an exact date of death for him.
I will ask J if she wants to pursue this line of enquiry and tell her she will need his death cert if she does. I have been spending her money like water, lol.
OC
kiterunner
23-10-09, 07:13
I wouldn't need his exact date of death if you have the year and his name, OC.
MargaretMarch
23-10-09, 08:12
The one thing which is niggling me here, is that Lottie worked during the 1950s and must have paid a stamp etc, and therefore must have provided her employer with a national insurance number....where did that come from and who told her it was her number??
OC,
I think in those days you applied for a NI number so it would have been based on what Lottie said at the time, not sure she would've been asked to prove her birth date then. I'm trying to remember what the requirements were but I do think they were a lot less stringent than they are now. She would have had a medical card number and that might have been enough then to get her a NI number. Also they thought she was Charlotte Elizabeth so would not have been concerned about issuing an NI number for that person.
Margaret
Kite, this is the death reg for Lottie's father:
Deaths Mar 1913
McCloud Charles [F_] 38 Aston 6d 735
He was Charles Frederick at birth and death and just Charles at marriage. He was a bricklayers labourer in 1901 living at Duddeston, Aston, Warks. I don't remember where they were in 1911 but similar area, given the death reg.
kiterunner
23-10-09, 08:36
Another unlikely occupation for someone who left a lot of money! Thanks, Merry.
OC, I don't know if you have gone back with Charles b 1875? I struggled to find him in 1881, but his family are there in Aston with the surname spelling Mc Clouse. Having a gap between the Mc and the other bit seems to upset the Soundex search!
Olde Crone
23-10-09, 09:35
Grr, my message got thrown out.
Merry - I have the McClouds from 1851 onwards, struggling with 1841 but just about to have another foray.
"A lot of money" may turn out to be £100, of course! Charles Frederick's father was a builder and died in 1907, only 6 years before his son Charles, and when his grandson Charles Sydney was only 6 years old, so maybe the money was in trust until Charles Sydney was 21.
OC
kiterunner
23-10-09, 13:48
I was passing the archives this afternoon, so I popped in and had a quick look. I couldn't find anything for Charles Frederick but is this his father?
1907 MCCLOUD James of 48 Bloomsbury-street Birmingham died 5 July 1907 Probate Birmingham 23 October to Arthur William Kemp auctioneer. Effects £438 18s 3d.
Not much of a fortune, I'm afraid.
Olde Crone
23-10-09, 14:07
Thankyou SO MUCH, Kate, that's brilliant. And you may have found me a missing marriage of one of his daughters to a Kemp, lol!
No, not much of a fortune at all, but that's family stories for you. Mind you, by the time Lottie got her hands on it in 1929, it might have been nearly £1k, which would probably have seemed a lot of money to her at that time.
OC
That depends where you are starting from, though. I've been looking at Croydon properties (5 rooms, wc, scullery, so bog standard victorian housing) where the weekly rent was 8s. Men might be earning as little as £1 per week, so that would keep quite a lot of wolves from the door, even if it mightn't buy many pearl necklaces.
maggie_4_7
23-10-09, 18:22
That would have been quite a lot of money then - my friends grandmother bought a two bedroom house for about £350 in 1910.
:d
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