Marriage cert

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Hello, I wonder if someone can confirm something for me please. I am helping a friend with her tree and I have this marriage


Name: John Marshall
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1874
Registration district: Kensington
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 435

to Margaret Collins

The friend has given me a copy of the marriage from the parish records? It is in the old Latin format and is from St Philipps Oratory, London, Brompton in the diocese of Westminster 14th Sept 1874

The Anglicised names are John Marshall and Margaret Collins the fathers are given as Jeremiah Collins and Henry Marshall. There are no fathers occupations or indication if they are alive because of the old format.

My question is, if she orders the marriage cert from the GRO will it be in the modern format giving the extra information, or will it just contain what we already know.

I think I have found Jeremiah Collins in 1841 and in 1851 with a new wife, but an occupation form the marriage cert would help

[kiterunner]

The copy you would get from the GRO will be in English and will be on a standard form, so there will be a column for father's occupation, but I can't say for sure whether it will be filled in. Is it a Roman Catholic marriage? If so then I think the registrar will have filled in the copy for the local register office and that would be the one that was copied out for the GRO, so I think he would most likely have filled that bit in.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I think it was a catholic marriage, I assumed the civil bit would be separate as it is today in a Catholic church. I just wanted to check before I advise her to buy the certificate. I am having trouble finding Margaret with her family before she marries. I think I possibly have her in 51 and the same father and some siblings in 41 (she was born c 1846 ). The man in both censuses is a gas fitter so if that was on the marriage cert it would help.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, Brompton Oratory is a famous Roman Catholic church.

I agree with Kate that the GRO certificate is a standard form and occupation of fathers OUGHT to be shown.

OC

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Thank you, I will try and persuade my friend to buy the certificate because it is the only way of proving the other info I have found. It is so difficult when it is not your own tree.

[Olde Crone]

Linda

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I am trying to help a friend with her tree and in her own words "I would do anything to find him". Anything except buy a ****** certificate, that is!

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Linda

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I am trying to help a friend with her tree and in her own words "I would do anything to find him". Anything except buy a ****** certificate, that is!

OC

That's the problem. People ask for help but they really do think that everything is there on the internet at the click of a button. It doesn't cost money does it?

[JBee]

No not a penny?!!!!!!!! - wish that was the case - I daren't even think how much its cost me so far!!! especially when I went off on a tangent and got certificates galore and parish records only to find I'd gone awry!!!!

[Margaret in Burton]

No not a penny?!!!!!!!! - wish that was the case - I daren't even think how much its cost me so far!!! especially when I went off on a tangent and got certificates galore and parish records only to find I'd gone awry!!!!

Been there and done that.

[Nell]

And then a lot of the London parish marriage certs I'd paid for are now available as part of my Ancestry sub. Not to mention all the original certs my Mum discovered after I'd shelled out for copies!

[Linda in Herriot Country]

My friend did agree to buying the marriage cert and it arrived this morning. It confirmed the censuses which I had spotted, but I could do with more help here please as things are not obvious.

I am tracing a Margaret Marshall, nee Collins

From 1881 to 1911 she is in Hulme Manchester, my friend has all the more recent dates, so I am only looking backwards

1911 age 66 born London Chelsea
1901 age 56 born London Pimlico
1891 age 46 born London
1881 age 35 35 born London, Middlesex

The marriage was on 14th Sept 1874 at The Oratory in the district of Kensington
Margaret Collins age 28, spinster, 5 Petersham Terrace Kensington. Father Jeremiah Collins Gas Fitter
John Marshall, age 30 bachelor, carpenter, 203 Ward Street, Hulme. Father Henry Marshall Mathematical instrument maker

Witnesses Jeremiah Collins and Catherine Collins (could be her brother and sister, not necessarily her father)

1871 Margaret Collins servant age 25 b 1846 London Address: Petersham Terrace, Kensington County: London, Middlesex. This is the same address as on her marriage cert

1861 all I can see is

Name: Margaret Collins
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: St Georges, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Dunstan
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address: 17 Fleet St

The age is two years out, but the 18 on the image is scruffy, so could be a 16

1851 the family I have spotted is
Jeremiah Collins age 41 b abt 1810 works for gas company born: Ireland living in Chelsea
Elizabeth Collins 44 b St Pancras
William Collins 13 b Chelsea
George Collins 12 b Chelsea
Catherine Collins 10 b Chelsea
Margaret Collins 6 b St Georges Hanover Sq
Edward Collins 4 b St Georges Hanover Sq
Charles Collins 2 b Chelsea
Ellen Dinneyan 13 niece b Ratcliffe Highway
Elizabeth Wright 2 nurse child

1841 this looks like the same family because of the father and the run of children, but a different wife, the adult ages have not been rounded down as they should be

Jeremiah Collins 37 b abt 1804
Ireland occupation gas fitter, living in Chelsea
Catherine Collins 35
Ann Collins 15
Jeremiah Collins 10
Mary Collins 7
William Collins 4
George Collins 2
Catherine Collins 10 Mo

I can’t see Jeremiah in 1861 or 71, he isn’t marked as deceased on the marriage cert, but that means nothing. I have been looking for the second wife, but can’t find her and there seem to be lots of possibilities for the death of a first wife Catherine. I can’t place the children together after 1851

I am going round in circles, so if anyone can help, I will be eternally grateful

[Merry]

I've looked and looked at this today, but haven't really got anywhere! It does seem extremely likely you have the right family, but it would be nice to find something conclusive.

[Phoenix]

Son Jeremiah marries in 1850, unfortnately - marriage witnessed by father.

Neice Ellen appears to be dau of Patrick & Ellen. Ellen senr dies young & Ellen's brother Daniel is in the workhouse in 1851 and the army in 1861.

Like Merry, I've had no luck with the parents or the younger siblings.

[Phoenix]

Statement of Jeremiah Collins jnr:

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows—"I went to see my father on Sunday evening. He was very dangerously ill at 20, Bull's-gardens. A little after 10 I had occasion to go to the water-closet which is in the front garden; after I came out I heard a moaning noise and I went outside the gate. When I got out I saw a woman lying on the ground, with her face on the ground, very drunk; I lifted her up and asked her where she lived; she told me Caroline-place. I led her a few steps, and let her go; I stood; she went about twenty yards, staggering along, and fell down again; I lifted her up and led her five or six yards; she said she was all right. She went along; I stood and watched her till she got to the corner of Caroline-place, Bulls-gardens; she fell down then in the middle of the road; I picked her up again, and was carrying her to the footway to inquire of the neighbours; with that this man (the deceased) came up and struck me on the side of the head. He had not spoken to me nor I to him, and I had never seen him before. He asked me what I was doing with that woman. He was about to strike me again, when I put up my hand to save myself; he still kept hold of my arm, and shouting out, "Police! police!" I wished him to leave go of me; I told him to leave go. He would not, and I gave my arm a wrench round to get away from him, and down he fell, and I went away back to my father's house. I stopped with my father all night, and I delivered myself up on the Tuesday."

[Phoenix]

This must be the father's death: Deaths Dec 1859 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Collins Jeremiah Chelsea 1a 132

[Phoenix]

There are masses of newspaper articles, which appear to describe the son as respectable! The transcript of the trial is on Old Bailey Online.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Thank you so much for this Phoenix, I am just looking in before I have to go out for the day, so I will work on what you have found this evening.

[Phoenix]

When Charles Collins married Mary Howcroft July 1868, the witnesses were John Marshall & Catherine Collins. Both witnesses signed, and Charles's Dad is Jeremiah, a gas fitter.

[Merry]

Oooh, I presume that was a C of E marriage? I didn't look at the LMA stuff because I thought they would all be Catholic marriages!!

[Merry]

the witnesses were John Marshall & Catherine Collins

So, that's the pretty conclusive evidence we needed!

[Phoenix]

Yup, that's what I thought;)

[Linda in Herriot Country]

It is indeed, thank you Merry and Phoenix. This evening, I decided to enter the family as a new tree on my software rather than just having it on a word document, so that has taken some time.

I am pleased that the marriage of Charles ties John Marshall in. I still have to look at the newspaper reports.

It would appear that gas fitter Jeremiah had two wives, Catherine first, then Elizabeth, They appear on the 1841 and 51 censuses. There would appear to be a gap in children between Catherine b1840 and Margaret b c1845, so I assume that is where the death of the first wife occurred.

There is a tree on ancestry which purports to give the names of these wives, but I don't think it is correct because it has plucked them from the LMA records. The problem is that these were definitely Catholic marriages and baptisms for the children and they are not on Ancestry. I need to see the baptism for Margaret to get the mothers name. The Catholic baptisms give this. I have a baptism certificate for John Marshall which my friend found when she was clearing an aunts house out.

I googled to see if there were any sites which give Catholic information, I found
http://www.prtsoc.org.uk/catholicmarriage_intro.php

Does anyone know anything about it, or have any better ideas where I can find information on the Catholic church as I will need it once I get round to the Marshall line. I don't mind buying credits if they are needed

[Merry]

There is a tree on ancestry which purports to give the names of these wives

Could you point me in the direction of the tree, please? I must have missed it.

[Merry]

Ah, found it now!

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Sorry Merry, I have been looking at the trial, one witness says that Jeremiah the father has since died, so the death Phoenix found must be the correct one. That is another reason the Ancestry tree is not correct, it has the father dying in 1870

[Merry]

I guess the second of these should be the right one. Age fits exactly with 6 in 1851 and no sign of a midde name later (though it has to be said, the oe with the middle name doesn't see to show up anywhere else!)

Births Mar 1844
Collins Margaret Lydia St. Geo. Han Sqr. 1 7


Births Sep 1844
Collins Margaret St Geo Han Sqr 1 24


or you could try one where there's only one match:

Births Jun 1849
COLLINS Charles Chelsea 3 37

[Linda in Herriot Country]

The second one does look the best, it is Margaret who is the direct line, but of course Charles is the better bet, it is a pity I can't find a baptism

[Phoenix]

There's a tree on Ancestry which goes down the line of William. He is patently the second known son as he has sons Jeremiah, William, George, Edward and Charles (doesn't look as if the wife had a look-in on naming them!) They give an unsourced birth date of 11 Jan 1838. Either that is family knowledge, or they had a birth certificate and didn't note Catherine's name or they have an RC baptism.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Hello Phoenix and Merry, sorry for my absence, I have been away for a few days, plus have been trying to catch up on this tree.

I must explain that my friend is really keen to do her tree herself. She found lots of certificates last year when she cleared out a maiden aunt’s house. She took out a temporary FMP membership over the winter and as three of her four grandparents are firmly rooted in Lancashire, she seems to have made some good progress. She couldn't however, get anywhere with this Collins Marshall branch which is why she has asked me to help out.

I have spent time putting the tree onto software for her because she was only writing things on paper and once I install it on her computer, she will be as hooked as the rest of us. She is more than willing to buy any certs which are needed. She is delighted with all the things you have found out so far and last week she went back to Lancashire and went to see a very with it ninety five year old uncle to gets lots of info from him.

Any way back to the Collins Marshall line. The newspaper reports of the trial give the location as the corner of Bulls Place and Caroline Place. Jeremiah Collins the father died sometime in the first two weeks of Dec 1859 while his son Jeremiah was awaiting the Old Bailey trial.

I can find his widow Elizabeth in 1871 Age 68 widowed. Step daughter Mary, step son George and his wife and son are with her. She is blind, birth place given as Camden town, they are living in Bulls Place Chelsea. As Elizabeth is the direct line ancestor, I would like to find out who she is, but as it is a Catholic marriage, it isn’t on Ancestry.

I have looked for Bulls Gardens in 1861 and hit a major snag as the page seems to be missing from the end of the census book. According to the description of the enumeration district in 1861 Bull Gardens should be in enumeration district 4 North East Chelsea, it should be on the very end of the sheets, just after Richard Place, but it is missing. Ancestry only has 106 pages for this district, I have looked through them all, but it is not there

Bulls Gardens and Richard Place don't come up on the address search on FMP, but on FMP if you search for John Porter b 1827 Marylebone, living in Middlesex, then click on next image 3 times, it takes you to the end of the bundle and you can see the torn sheet with Richard Place on it, Bulls gardens should follow on from there pages107 and 108 on the end of RG9 bundle 36 but they are not there. It is so frustrating

I have also been trying to find John Marshall who married Margaret Collins in 1874. According to the marriage certificate his father was Henry Marshall musical instrument maker.

I have him in 1861 at 29 Caroline Place, Chelsea Age 17 an errand boy, living with his widowed mother Mary age 42 a laundress born Ireland. That ties in very nicely with the Collins family.
I think he is in the army in Cavalry Barracks, Hulme, Lancashire in 1871. It says he was born in Brentford Middlesex, but there is no other possibility and it would explain why he is given as coming from Hulme on his marriage cert in 1874.

In the original certs my friend found there is a photocopy of a baptism John Marshall son of Henry and Mary Mack born 14th March 1844, baptised 9th June 1844 St Mary's Cadogan Street, London. Daniel Lyons and Alice Rigby god parents

I have been going around in circles trying to find this family in 1851, I am having no luck at all

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Sorry Phoenix, I forgot to say that I did look at all the Ancestry trees for William, they all seem to copy from each other apart from one
It gives Catherine Hays (b c1806 Chelsea St Luke) marriage to Jeremiah Collins 16 May 1819 Southwark, Surrey,England death c 1841. I suppose it is possible that there were older children who had left home before the 1841 census, she would have been very young to marry though. There were lots of Jeremiah Collins in London,so I am not convinced

Possible death

Name: Catherine Collins
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1843
Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1
Page: 2 (

Nothing in Chelsea, but lots of others in London around the correct time

[Merry]

Did you just want us to look for John Marshall in 1851?

As Elizabeth is the direct line ancestor, I would like to find out who she is, but as it is a Catholic marriage, it isn’t on Ancestry.


So your friend needs to get a birth cert for one of the children to find out her previous surname(s).

Your friend might like to join our forum! :)

[Merry]

I've seen John's father is Henry from this thread, but could you tell us where John says he was born? You have told us his wife's pobs but not John! (I don't think, anyway!!)

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Sorry merry, I went off to make dinner

I have already told my friend that she needs to get one of the children's birth certificates, I am just waiting until I hand it all over. If anyone could find the missing Elizabeth Collins in Bulls Gardens in 1861, that would be great, but I don't think the pages are there

I am now looking for John Marshall,
From 1881 to 1901 he is in Hulme, Lancashire and in 1911 in Old Stafford. his place of birth from 1881 onwards is London City, London, London, London City

In 1861 it is Middlesex
On 26 Jul 1868 he was in London because he was witness at the marriage of Charles collins
The soldier in 1871 is Brentford Middlesex.

from 1881 he was a joiner journeyman then a parquet floor layer

I would like to find him with his father before the 1861 census when he is with his widowed mother

I have been through Caroline Place in 1851, but they aren't there

[ElizabethHerts]

When was he born, Linda?

[ElizabethHerts]

I think I should have read back!

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Bother in 1851 I have found
MARSHALL, John 1845 6 M Brentford Middlesex, living in Chiswick, but with the wrong father,so maybe the soldier I found in Hulme in 1871 isn't mine

[Merry]

Whoops - I got distracted by dinner and Mo Farah!

How do you know the 1861 census (with mother Mary from Ireland) is him?

[Merry]

I just went through the 1841 census and looked at all the Henry Mar*l entries in Middlesex where Henry was born 1826 or before, looking for an instrument maker. There were a few with no occ or independent, but otherwise the best fit was a tool maker married to Ann with one child Mary aged 1 in St Pancras. However, when I checked the same family in 1851 Henry was a plane edge tool maker journeyman (a specific sort of tool maker but not the right sort!) and there was no son named John.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Thank you for your help Merry, I have been trawling through all of the censuses until my head is spinning, well that and watching tom Daley and Mo Farrah.

I can't know that the 1861 census is correct other than the fact that the mother and his birth date fit. It also has to be more than a coincidence that they were living in Caroline Place which shares a corner with Bull Gardens where the Collins family lived. John was a witness at the marriage of one of the Collins sons and then he married one of the daughters so the families must have known each other well

[Merry]

Ah, I didn't realise you knew who his mother was!

[Linda in Herriot Country]

I am just assuming that the photocopy of a baptism John Marshall son of Henry and Mary Mack born 14th March 1844, baptised 9th June 1844 St Mary's Cadogan Street, London. Daniel Lyons and Alice Rigby god parents which came from the contents of my friends aunts house is correct.
She also had the Latin copy of John Marshalls marriage, I assume they have come down the family, John Marshall was this ladies grandfather so it is feasible that she would have all the family papers

[Merry]

So, if you ignore the ones with a middle name and the Brentford one from these:

Births Mar 1844
Marshall John Kensington 3 317 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
MARSHALL John Kensington 3 517
Marshall John Cobbett Islington 3 250
MARSHALL John Cobbill Islington 3 250
Marshall John Henry Marylebone 1 207

Births Jun 1844
Marshall John Brentford 3 17
Marshall John St Pancras 1 307

ad consider the Kensington one is just duplicated because the page number was difficult to read (it's 317) then the Kensington entry seems the most likely, as it's nearest to Chelsea.

[Linda in Herriot Country]

Thank you for that Merry,it does look to be the most likely one. I will hand over the tree sometime this week and talk to my friend about what certs to order next.

I will contact FMP and see what they have to say about the missing 1851 census pages