View Full Version : The Chaigley skull.
Olde Crone
06-07-12, 21:09
Some of you may remember this - I can't find the original thread. Briefly, the Holdens carted a skull around in a box for 300 years. It was the skull of the maryred Philip Holden.
We went as far as we could with the research and then I filed it all away (Where, though?!).
Today, by one of those extraordinary coincidences, I have been contacted by two unconnected people both wanting information about the Chaigley skull as they both have this legend in their Holden families and would like to prove/disprove their connection.
One has done extensive and very impressive research ( he spoke to a member of the family which last had custody of the skull) so I can't tell him anything, but the other person is stuck in 1841.
the info is a bit vague but perhaps someone would be kind enough to look on the 1841 for
Robert Holden, a miller, who may or may not be married to Jane and is probably living in the Aighton Bailey Chaigley area of Lancs.
Sorry this is so vague but it's all I have, other than that Robert has a brother Roger (bc 1820) who is a stonemason in 1861!
Thankyou for any assistance.
OC
Breckland Jane
06-07-12, 21:30
HOLDEN, Robert M 25 1816
HOLDEN, Jane F 25 1816
HOLDEN, Elizabeth F 1 1840
Address: Mills, Mitton, Aighton Bailey & Chaigley
ElizabethHerts
06-07-12, 21:35
Here he is, OC:
1841 Census
HOLDEN, Robert
CLITHEROE, Lancashire
HO107 piece 505 folio 7/29 page 3
Address: Mills, Mitton, Aighton Bailey & Chaigley
HOLDEN, Robert M 25 1816 Miller Lancashire
HOLDEN, Jane F 25 1816 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Elizabeth F 1 1840 Lancashire
ElizabethHerts
06-07-12, 21:38
1851 Census
HOLDEN, Robert
CLITHEROE, Lancashire
HO107 piece 2255 folio 330 page 10
Address: Mill House, Aighton Bailey & Chaigley
HOLDEN, Robert Head Married M 37 1814 Miller Journeyman Aighton, Lancashire
HOLDEN, Jane Wife Married F 34 1817 Grimsargh, Lancashire
HOLDEN, Elizabeth Daughter Unmarried F 11 1840 Errand Girl Aighton, Lancashire
HOLDEN, James Son M 9 1842 ScholarAighton, Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ann Daughter F 6 1845 Scholar Aighton, Lancashire
HOLDEN, John Son M 2 1849 Bailey, Lancashire
HOLDEN, Thomas Son M 0 (9 MOS) 1851 Bailey, Lancashire
Olde Crone
06-07-12, 21:56
Oooh, thankyou both, that gives me a date for him!
OC
Uncle John
07-07-12, 10:01
Alas poor Yorick, I knew him well.
Olde Crone
07-07-12, 11:32
Well UJ, if you were a Holden, you would have to know at least TWO Yoricks and possibly three!
There are three candidates for the skull, all have close Holden family connections and all three are in different centuries and wildly differing circumstances, so three skulls, not just one!
OC
But only one of them was a martyr, surely?
Is this the skull that was in the china cabinet......or am I thinking of someone else?
Please don't tell me I'm thinking of another skull....lol
Olde Crone
07-07-12, 12:17
Erm, no Nell, all three were martyrs I'm afraid!
Yes, the china cabinet skull (well, ok not EXACTLY in the china cabinet, more of a wooden box really, but still....)
OC
OC......don't ask me why, but I just googled Chaigley Skull and got a few hits.
You've probably seen them all.
Olde Crone
07-07-12, 17:47
Yes, I've done a thorough google. No two stories the same but my contact has actually physically seen the skull and talked to members of the family about it. His opinion is that we will never know whose skull it is (of the three candidates) but that it must be of great importance in the family to have been so carefully handed down and preserved for over 350 years.
OC
tenterfieldjulie
08-07-12, 14:19
The only way OC would to have it carbon dated ... but then you would need the skull...
Olde Crone
08-07-12, 17:12
Julie
I don't think carbon dating is accurate enough because the skull is probably not more than 450 years old at the very most. The RC church accepts that it is the skull of Blessed Philip Holden - it's the Holdens who are arguing about it (as usual).
OC
tenterfieldjulie
08-07-12, 19:47
Why are the family challenging it OC? Does the Church have documentary evidence? Was it originally owned by the church?
Olde Crone
08-07-12, 20:15
The family aren't challenging it officially, just arguing amongst themselves about it!
No, the skull was in the possession of the Holden family from either 1590, 1628 or 1648, depending on whose skull it is. It was finally handed over to the Catholic church in the 1880s, as the skull of Philip Holden, martyred in 1590 and the church later beatified Philip Holden.
The skull was handed down through the family in great secrecy, but no one thought to record whose skull it actually was.
OC
tenterfieldjulie
08-07-12, 20:30
Knowing how exacting the church is now with beatification, I would have thought, as it was not much more than 100s years ago, that there would have needed to be a detailed provence with the skull, especially as it is tied to beatification. There should be official records, but whether they are accessible is another thing. Have you tried. Julie
Olde Crone
08-07-12, 20:46
Depositions were taken at the time and there have been several scholarly attempts to verify the information given. It is of course, all hearsay and the few artefacts that were with the skull haven't really helped.
I believe that Philip was beatified because he was slaughtered at the high altar as he was elevating the Host - someone told me that would be a "hotline" to beatification.
My personal view is that there were two incidents 120 years apart and that the skull and artefacts could be from either incident. I dismiss the third candidate because the Holdens nastily dobbed him in to the authorities and I cannot therefore imagine why they would have (and preserve) his skull - especially as his mother had his arm!
OC
Arm?
Heavens.....I thought the Ariels were bad............lol
Olde Crone
08-07-12, 22:18
Yup, she had his arm. It performed miracles which led to him becoming a Saint - Saint Edmund Arrowsmith. A Holden swears he has a fragment of Edmund's skull and another Holden says there's a matching hole in Philip Holden's skull (or Miles Gerard's skull).
OC
.........goodness, and to think I've just been complaining about people not putting names on the back of photographs!
I knew about the skull, but not the arm.
Val I think I'd prefer unlabellled photographs in the drawer than a skull or arm.
Ahhhh....now it's coming back to me. The start of the Miles/Myles name becomming common in Lancs.
The Sawreys had a Miles/Myles in every family.
Olde Crone
09-07-12, 15:49
Libby
Well, funnily enough, the Holdens DIDN'T have a Miles in every generation, but the few families who do have a Miles are RC and the connection is with the Gerard family of course. Your Sawreys must have been "Church Papists", yes?
OC
I can't find any definite connection to the Sawreys being RC, although i must admit to not knowing much about religion way back when.
Their church seems to have been St Michael and All Angels in Hawkshead and at one stage their family, along with the Kirkbys (who married in several times) had a great swag of land in that area.
The earliest Myles I have in a direct line is Myles Sawrey son of Henry Sawrey, baptised 1586.
baptised 1586.
Now you are all just bragging, arms, skulls and 1586.
I have managed to get some lines back to the 1700's.
Lynn the Forest Fan
10-07-12, 05:59
I was just thinking the same Toni! :D I do find it a bit weird that a family would keep a skull!
Langley Vale Sue
10-07-12, 06:49
Watching Qi on BBC last night I learned that Sir Walter Raleigh's widow carried his head around everywhere with her in a velvet bag!
Not much difference from keeping the skull of a relative? :confused::confused:
Watching Qi on BBC last night I learned that Sir Walter Raleigh's widow carried his head around everywhere with her in a velvet bag!
Not much difference from keeping the skull of a relative? :confused::confused:
I thought it was Thomas More's daughter who did that - perhaps it was a Tudor fashion:eek:
Olde Crone
10-07-12, 16:33
Libby
I would be astonished if your Sawreys weren't RC - church papists had a foot in each camp, the men usually conforming to the "new" protestant church and their wives practising the old religion. The men often paid their wives' recusancy fines! Of course, you only got away with this if you were top drawer landed gentry.
Yes, perhaps it was a fashion to carry heads around. In the original Chaigley skull thread, we learned that the Holdens often took the skull out on a nice day and let it get the fresh air on a grassy bank...............
OC
Didn't one of the Spanish queens carry her husband's entire body round for yonks?
I read too many Jean Plaidys when I was younger! :d
Edited to add - yes, Joanna the Mad! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_of_Castile
Olde Crone
10-07-12, 21:25
You see? Nothing odd about the Holdens at all, THEY didn't cart whole bodies around, just the odd skull and bloodstained vestments and aprons etc.
OC
Wouldn't be me calling anyone else odd.........there's plenty of odd in my lot....lol
Maybe we could start an 'ODD' thread......:d
....just to see who's story is the oddest you understand.
Mind you, OC's would take some beating
In the original Chaigley skull thread, we learned that the Holdens often took the skull out on a nice day and let it get the fresh air on a grassy bank...............
Quite natural. :confused:
Didn't one of the Spanish queens carry her husband's entire body round for yonks?
I read too many Jean Plaidys when I was younger! :d
Edited to add - yes, Joanna the Mad! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_of_Castile
I read too much Jean Plaidy too.
However it looks like she didn't actually carry his body at all, it was a rumour to keep her locked up. So it is just OC that is odd. :p
Mind you keeping the head would ensure that the person was actually dead. ;)
Lynn the Forest Fan
11-07-12, 06:01
Ok, maybe not THAT odd then :D. I did know the story of Walter Raleigh, whyich is really odd!
Kit....I've found a Myels Sawrey baptised in 1577 and one married in 1583, but I can't work the connection to mine. Must be there in the same village though...
Olde Crone
11-07-12, 09:54
Libby
there are some online references to various members of the Sawrey family being fined for recusancy.
OC
Thanks OC.......might have another google.
Kit....I've found a Myels Sawrey baptised in 1577 and one married in 1583, but I can't work the connection to mine. Must be there in the same village though...
You'll get there, Libby. You have them confined to the one village. ;)
tenterfieldjulie
11-07-12, 17:28
Don't be too sure!!! ... they might have bilocated:p !!! he hee
Now the lady at the hotel in Yorkshire said that she thought I should be happy that there was a ghost in my room as I wouldn't be lonely:eek::eek:!!! (I didn't ask if it was headless!!)
Were your lot in Yorkshire Lib?:eek:
Yep Julie......remember the Eyres, Naylors etc......lol. The Kirkbys did a stint there as well...lol
So did you see the ghost Julie?
tenterfieldjulie
12-07-12, 07:06
Does one see a ghost Kit?
Naw .. just heard some scampering in the walls ... creaking of boards ... footsteps on the stairs ... voices in the night .... tee hee Julie
Wish those b... tourists would stay home ... not me of course lol
lol Julie. I've seen both my Mum's parents, just the once.
I thought if you saw it you could work out who it was, who knows it might solve OC's problem as to whose skull it was. ;)
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