Can anyone please help with my Smiths??

[JBee]

Can anyone help find out what happened to my Smiths please?

Helen/Ellen Farmer (b 17 Dec 1825 in Edinburgh) married Edward Smith (b c1828/9/30 in Glasgow) on 2 Jul 1853 in the catholic Pilgrim Rd church in Newcastle upon Tyne. They both say they're 23 on marriage certificate.

They have 4 children
John b 8 Dec 1853 in Newcastle upon Tyne
Margaret b 1 Nov 1855 in Newcastle upon Tyne
Anne b 5 Sep 1857 in Edinburgh
Mary b 28 Oct 1859 in Edinburgh

I have them all minus Margaret in Edinburgh in the 1861 census

Source Citation: Parish: Edinburgh High Church; ED: 18; Page: 7; Line: 9; Roll: CSSCT1861_128.

However Helen dies in Dec 1861 in Edinburgh.

In 1871 Edward Smith a bricklayer is working in Linlithgow, Midlothian
Source Citation: Parish: Linlithgow; ED: 5; Page: 6; Line: 9; Roll: CSSCT1871_153.

and I think Mary & Anne Smith are living at Drum Farm in Liberton - not totally sure if that's right
Source Citation: Parish: Liberton; ED: 6; Page: 36; Line: 19; Roll: CSSCT1871_170.

There is no sign of son John Smith in 1871 nor could I find anything more about him - did he join the Army like his uncle's?

After 1871 I can find no trace of any of them - have checked for marriages and deaths for Edward, Anne and Mary in Scotland as well as John but nothing.

On Edward's marriage certificate he said his father was John also a bricklayer but I cannot find him in any census before his marriage.

I know Smith isn't a good name but I did manage to find the John Smith b 1853 in England which was a job in itself (thankyou familysearch!!).

Any help greatly appreciated.

[kiterunner]

There are a few John Smiths of about the right age born England living in Scotland on the 1871 census who are not with family, so couldn't he be one of those?

[JBee]

He could Merry but I haven't been able to find a marriage or death for John Smith in Scotland that fits.

I trawled through the images on scotlandspeople when I was up there for marriages and deaths for Edward, Anne, Mary and John but nothing.

Edward may have changed his occupation but he was a bricklayer in 1853, 1861 and 1871.

Couldn't find anything in the census's for England and Wales either for an Edward Smith bricklayer.

[kiterunner]

There is an Edward Smith age 20 born Scotland in Bedlington, Northumberland, in 1851 but his occupation is Mason.

[kiterunner]

And ancestry has an Edward Smith age 10 born Lanarkshire on the 1841 census at Bell Street, Barony Middle Colton, Lanarkshire, with a Mary Smith age 40 who is a hawker born Ireland and Hugh Smith age 7. Also Thos Murphy age 35 and Elizabeth Murphy age 80, both born Ireland.

[JBee]

Kite I think b c1831 would be too young as he says he's 33 c1828 in the 1861 census and 42 c1829 in the 1871 census.

There are a couple of Edward Smith's iirc living without parents that were born in Glasgow c1827-1830 and I have no way of knowing if either were the right one. If I could have found a marriage certificate or death certificate in Scotland then it should have given his mother's maiden name too which would have been a great help.

On the wedding certificate it doesn't say that Edward's father John was deceased - but that doesn't mean he wasn't though I can't find any trace in the Scottish or English census 1851/61 for a John Smith bricklayer.

I would really like to find out what happened after 1871 if possible - did they emigrate I wonder!!!

[kiterunner]

I've spent quite a while looking but no luck. There are just too many possibles!

[JBee]

Thank you so much for trying Kite - much appreciated.

When I first started looking for John Smith born c1853 in England on freebdm I got about 3,000 hits!!! Luckily his parents married and I found them on family search though his Mum was transcribed as Farmor not Farmer.

Perhaps one day with a bit of luck a descendant will start looking for their ancestors lol

[Merry]

There's a John Smith b 1853 Newcastle in the military records on fmp who joined up in 1870. Having waded through quite a few pages it would seem he's not the one though, as his father is John and mother Jane. He was a glassblower by trade.

[kiterunner]

I found on a public tree on ancestry (yours?) this family in 1841:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/NBLHO107_830_832-0532?pid=15506709&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1841%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dedw*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsmith%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3dwhittingham%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV %3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d15506 709%26recoff%3d8%2b9%26ml_rpos%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true

Powburn, Whittingham, Northumberland
(lodging house)
John Smith 45 Brick layer S
Mary Do 40 S
Ann Do 15 S
Edward Do 12 S

[kiterunner]

Scotland's People says it has 2 Catholic baptism records for Edward Smith, 1828, Glasgow St Andrew's, father's name John. But the date for both is 10th March so I guess they are two copies of the same record.

[kiterunner]

On the 1881 England census there is a Mary Smith, age 20, born Edinburgh, working as a domestic servant in Beckenham, Kent:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/KENRG11_845_850-0861/7890876?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dmar y%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsm*th%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy %3d1860%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn__ftp_x%3 d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3d scotland%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl %3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dBEDczMwIg AAdlAE1gWs-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[JBee]

Merry there is a good possibility he joined the military - two of his uncles Thomas and Hugh Farmer were both in the Army (71st Regiment of Foot) but haven't found him after 1871 or his cousin John Hope Farmer after 1881. I did try looking at military records on ancestry and fmp but no luck.

Yes Kite that's a small public Smith tree I put on ancestry just in case anyone was looking.

I was hoping to find out what happened to Edward and his daughters after 1871 - I didn't find a second marriage or death for Edward in Scotland, marriages or deaths for Mary or Anne in Scotland nor could I find them in subsequent UK census's.

I think they must have emigrated but where to I don't know as I've found nothing to indicate this possibility.

I was very fortunate to find Edward and Helen's marriage in Newcastle and then the births of all 4 children including just John Smith born c1853 England lol.

With a name like Smith I don't think I will ever find out to be honest - it's just so annoying....................

[JBee]

In the Catholic records for Glasgow, St Andrew. I found this birth:-

Edward Smith son of John Smith and Unity Gallogher born 10 March 1828 baptised 16 Mar 1828. godparents John Gallagher and Helen Ralston

however Edward may not have been a catholic so this may not be correct. Also I can't find a Unity Smith that fits in any of the census's.

There's 2 other births in the OPR's for Scotland

18 May 1828 for Edward son of John Smith and Catherine Dobie in Dumfries

and

19 Sep 1830 Edward Clark son of John Smith and Mary Pennycuick in Glasgow Rutherglen

I think the 1851 census has a John and Mary in Newcastle. John is a bricklayer which fits in with Edward's marriage. I haven't found a birth for the sister Ann though.

[kiterunner]

I think the 1851 census has a John and Mary in Newcastle. John is a bricklayer which fits in with Edward's marriage. I haven't found a birth for the sister Ann though.

I can't find them in 1851, only 1841 (though they weren't in Newcastle on that one.) What are the full details from Edward's marriage cert, please?

[JBee]

Oops sorry I misled you - it was the 1841 census Whittingham Northumberland. I thought it was Newcastle as that's where Edward and Helen got married.

I haven't been able to find father John or son Edward in the 1851 census for Scotland or England.

Edward and Helen's marriage certificate states:-

Edward Smith married Helen Farmer on 2 Jul 1853 at the Catholic Chapel, Pilgrim St, Newcastle upon Tyne.

Edward was 23 years old a batchelor, occupation Bricklayer residence Sids, Newcastle upon Tyne. His father was John Smith bricklayer.

Helen Farmer was also 23 years old, a spinster, residence Painter Heugh, Newcastle, father James Farmer labourer. (she was born in 1825 so discrepancy of over age)

Witnesses x mark of Patrick Daly? and x mark of Elizabeth Deas.

.............................................

Found the original parish record for the marriage in my file and had a proper look at it. I remember now the discrepancy over his mother's name - it's been awhile since I looked.

It says parents of Edward were John and Anne? (not Mary or Unity). Helen's parents James and Margaret was correct.