A Question about Removal Orders

[Margaret in Burton]

I received some removal orders yesterday from Gloucester Archives.

It is a transcript as the originals are not in good condition.

At the top it says "Painswick Removal Orders"

Samuel Hale and his wife and children have been removed to Frampton Cotterell.

I have Samuel as being born in Rangeworthy and his wife Eliza in either Miserden or Painswick. I have found her baptism in Miserden though.

All of their children were born in Painswick according to the census and were definitely baptised there.

My question is: Are people removed to the place of the husbands birth? I would have thought that as the children were born there then they had a right to stay in Painswick. I suppose as all of the children removed were minors I have probably answered my own question.

[Margaret in Burton]

This is what the removal orders say:


Samuel Hale, wife Eliza and 5 children George 16, Matthew 11, Mary Ann 7, Leonard 5 and Maria 3 to Frampton Cotterell.
Examination of Samuel Hale son of Nathaniel and Flower Hale born in Rangeworthy about 44 years ago. When between 12 and 14 apprenticed to Peter Champion in Framton Cotterell, hatter for 7 years and 6 1/2 years when master gave up business and went to live in Dursley. 3 or 4 days afterwards came to Painswick and worked 6 months with Thomas Glover hatter. Then went to Wales and other places to work, came back to Painswick in 6 months and worked for Glover as a journeyman. Married about 23 years ago to Eliza in Painswick and has 10 children James 22, Eliza 17, Matthew 11, Mary Ann, Leonard 5 and Maria 3. Daughter Eliza is living in service in Cheltenham.



I have found the marriage and the baptisms of 10 children.

[Olde Crone]

Children were the property of their father and they went where he went, as did his horse, his pig, his chickens and so on - possessions.

In later life when those children became adults, they would have right of settlement in their birthplace but should they then fall on hard times, the various parishes would start playing ping pong with them.

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Thank you OC

Why Frampton Cotterell though when it says he was born in Rangeworthy?

The two places are only about 4 miles apart.

[anne fraser]

I think the thing here is that as he was an apprentice in Frampton Cotterell, he would have had the right to settle there when he finished his apprenticeship so perhaps there is a settlement order from Rangeworth to Frampton Cotterell already

[Olde Crone]

Sorry, I missed your other post.

Frampton Cotterrell because that was where he did his apprenticeship. No doubt FC would protest and send him back to Rangeworthy. Some of my poor families bounce around all over the place, backwards and forwards until they finally are allowed to settle somewhere.

Have you found any settlement orders? There should be corresponding ones (if they survive, of course).

OC

[anne fraser]

OC great minds think alike we must have been posting at the same time.

[Margaret in Burton]

I think the thing here is that as he was an apprentice in Frampton Cotterell, he would have had the right to settle there when he finished his apprenticeship so perhaps there is a settlement order from Rangeworth to Frampton Cotterell already

That link doesn't work Ann, just gives me something about the music industry

[Margaret in Burton]

Sorry, I missed your other post.

Frampton Cotterrell because that was where he did his apprenticeship. No doubt FC would protest and send him back to Rangeworthy. Some of my poor families bounce around all over the place, backwards and forwards until they finally are allowed to settle somewhere.

Have you found any settlement orders? There should be corresponding ones (if they survive, of course).

OC

No not yet. Gloucester Archives did say that these records were fragile.

I think I have found Samuels death in 1839 and Eliza and children are back in Painswick in 1841.

[Phoenix]

What survives is hugely hit and miss. The records were usually kept in the parish chest and turfed out when that got too full, the vicar's wife needed paper for sewing patterns etc etc etc.

If you can get hold of settlement examinations, however, they are just the best records ever. You get all the reasons someone might have had for belonging to a different parish: apprenticeship, working for someone for more than a year, renting property to a certain value etc etc.

I have several ancestors who were removed to places quite other than where they were born, but no explanation of why:(

[kiterunner]

Children were the property of their father and they went where he went, as did his horse, his pig, his chickens and so on - possessions.

In later life when those children became adults, they would have right of settlement in their birthplace but should they then fall on hard times, the various parishes would start playing ping pong with them.

OC

From what I've seen, the wife and children would be removed to the husband's "place of settlement" (birthplace, place where he had been apprenticed, or place he had subsquently acquired settlement), even if he had abandoned them and nobody knew where he was.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, I agree with that Kate.

I have one widow who was for the chop, was going to be sent back to her husband's parish of birth. She appealed (successfully) saying that neither she nor her children knew anyone in her husband's parish of birth as they had never been there and her husband had left that parish when a small child.

the parish overseer, showing huge common sense and compassion, allowed her and her children to stay, putting them all to live with an old woman who was "on the parish" where the woman was paid 6d or something to look after the old dear, thus saving money all round and putting a roof over her head. The older children were apprenticed out.

OC