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kiterunner
19-06-12, 10:15
Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions about this one which has been a problem for years!

Frederick Cheeseman is shown on the censuses as being born Newcastle Upon Tyne around 1877 and we have a copy of the GRO birth certificate showing he was born 16th Apr 1877 at 3 Rowell Place, Newcastle upon Tyne, father William Cheeseman, mother Margaret Cheeseman formerly Wright. Father's occupation Labourer. Informant M Cheeseman mother 3 Rowell Place Newcastle. Date of registration 23 May 1877.

By the 1881 census they are in Hackney, London:
Wm Cheeseman Head Mar 32 Bricklr Labr Surrey
Margt " Wife 26 Mid
Fredk " Son 3 Newcastle on Tyne
Ellen " Daur 2 Midx
Wm " Son 3 mo "

Ellen's birth certificate shows mother as Margaret Cheeseman, formerly Flanagan.

William Cheeseman's death was registered Apr-Jun 1888 Pancras age 40.

In 1891 Frederick and William are in Watford, Hertfordshire at a Pancras District school and their brother James age 6 is at Rottingdean, Sussex in what seems to be a convalescent home. I can't find Margaret or Ellen on the 1891 census nor the other child Margaret junior who should be 3, but it has been suggested they may have been in Ireland at the time.

This is the 1901 census for Margaret and the two youngest children:
7 Stephen St., St Pancras
Margaret Cheeseman Head Wid 45 Charwoman London
James Cheeseman Son 15 "
Margaret Cheeseman Daur 13 "

James and Margaret jr's birth certificates also have father as William Cheeseman and mother as Margaret Cheeseman, formerly Flanagan, so we know they are the same family although they never appear on the census with the older children. Also there are descendants who knew these people. But they never heard that Frederick had a different mother from the other children.

I'm trying to find out whether Frederick really had a different mother or not. I've had a look at the London poor law records on ancestry and all I could find was that Margaret Flanagan age 37 was admitted to Highgate Infirmary 7 Jan 1890 with acute bronchitis. I can't find any poor law records relating to any of the children on there, although I suppose they might turn up when the records are indexed.

Frederick, Ellen and William are in the London school admissions 23 Jun 1884 starting at Manchester Street School in Pancras, father William, address 94 Cromer St. Their dates of birth match the birth certs. Previous school is shown as Dutton St which looks to be St Peters National School, Dutton Street, Holy Cross, Pancras, but the records for this school don't seem to be on ancestry.

There is a William Cheeseman / Margaret Flanagan marriage 26 May 1884 at St John, Walworth, Surrey, both full age, he is a bachelor, labourer, father William Cheeseman deceased, she is a spinster, father Cornelius Flanagan, labourer. Marriage by banns with the bann dates 11th, 18th and 25th May. Both give their address as 12 King & Queen Street, which is in Walworth. So pretty far from Dutton Street where the children are supposed to have been at school around then.

There is a Margaret Flanagan on the 1861 census age 8 born Pimlico, Middlesex, with a father Cornelius, labourer, so this looks as though it could be the right marriage apart from the question of why they got married there instead of Pancras. If this is the right Margaret Flanagan, then her parents are together on the 1851 census and one of her brothers (Patrick) emigrated to Australia and his death registration shows his parents as Cornelius Flanagan and Margaret Fitz or Fits, so the surname Wright isn't their mother's maiden name.

I've suggested asking Newcastle Register Office to confirm that their copy of Frederick's birth certificate gives mother's maiden name as Wright. Any other ideas, please? I seem to keep going round and round in circles with this one and getting nowhere!

Phoenix
19-06-12, 13:07
I've seen a Lambeth couple marrying in Bethnal Green on their eldest son's second birthday. If you didn't want the neighbours to know, you'd marry out of area to conceal the fact that you'd taken a bit of time to get round to it.

The dates look very tight for William to have abandoned a first wife/concubine, come down south with his son AND found another woman, also called Margaret and have a baby with her within 24 months (and presumably actually a much smaller time scale)

Was Margaret literate? Could it be a simple error in Newcastle? My bet would be we are only talking one Margaret, but short of a settlement examination I doubt whether you'd find it.

Merry
19-06-12, 13:10
Have you checked out the witnesses (Towner) on the 1884 marriage cert?

Have you investigated this? (Can't imagine how it would help/fit, which is why I'm asking and not checking it out first!)

Marriages Sep 1874
BROADBEAR Japheth St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849
Clarke Charlotte St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849
FLANAGAN Cornelius St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849
Wright Catherine St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849

Japeth married Charlotte as they are together in 1881. Can't see the other two. I'm assuming Margaret's father was alive in 1884 as she doesn't say dec'd for him.

I am typing this in the garden (sunny!!!) so apologies if I've missed something you said, as the light is difficult to see by!!

Phoenix
19-06-12, 13:10
Are there admissions for St Pancras workhouse c William's death? If so, I'd browse them.

We found the Bethnal Green marriage because it was mentioned in a settlement examination.

kiterunner
19-06-12, 13:38
I've seen a Lambeth couple marrying in Bethnal Green on their eldest son's second birthday. If you didn't want the neighbours to know, you'd marry out of area to conceal the fact that you'd taken a bit of time to get round to it. I know that, but it seems weird they would get married in a church by banns instead of licence or register office, doesn't it?

The dates look very tight for William to have abandoned a first wife/concubine, come down south with his son AND found another woman, also called Margaret and have a baby with her within 24 months (and presumably actually a much smaller time scale) I agree but would love to prove it!

Was Margaret literate? Could it be a simple error in Newcastle?
Yes, she signed her name rather than marking an X and if they are the same couple who got married in 1884 she signed her name then too. Which makes it seem a bit less likely to me that it is a mistake on the original birth cert because you would think she would have spotted it. But it could be copied out wrong - hopefully my contact is going to check with Newcastle Register Office. [/QUOTE]

Are there admissions for St Pancras workhouse c William's death? If so, I'd browse them. Not that I can see by browsing on ancestry, the nearest are the ones starting 1889 where I found Margaret's admission to the infirmary.[/QUOTE]



Have you checked out the witnesses (Towner) on the 1884 marriage cert? I had a look for an Edwin Towner marriage to an Amelia but found nothing.

Have you investigated this? (Can't imagine how it would help/fit, which is why I'm asking and not checking it out first!)

Marriages Sep 1874
BROADBEAR Japheth St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849
Clarke Charlotte St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849
FLANAGAN Cornelius St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849
Wright Catherine St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 849

Japeth married Charlotte as they are together in 1881. Can't see the other two. I'm assuming Margaret's father was alive in 1884 as she doesn't say dec'd for him.


No, I hadn't seen that, thanks. I don't think I found Cornelius Flanagan after 1871 (edit - or even in 1871) but I wonder if he was back in Ireland? Although there is a possible death for him in 1887 in St Geo H Sq, age 69, which goes well with that marriage.

Thanks for your help, both of you! I got sidetracked with William Cheeseman's parents but got in a total muddle there and decided it wasn't going to help sort out the Margaret problem anyway.

kiterunner
19-06-12, 13:42
Okay, here are the Towners in 1871 in Bermondsey:
Edwin Towner Head M 32 Labourer Tea Merch Sussex Newhaven
Amelia A Do Wife M 31 Designer Hants Botley
Emmeline A Do Dau 2 Surrey Sthwk.

So their marriage is the one in 1863 in Brighton which I had ignored before as being too far away! Amelia Ann's name on the marriage is Laker so probably not related to William or Margaret. Bother.

Janet
19-06-12, 14:44
Nellie Cheesman, "friend" on 1891 at 14 Cromer Street, b Hackney, could be Ellen? With family transcribed by Ancestry as Calpin, but not sure if I agree with that. Or did you already eliminate her?

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LNDRG12_122_124-0130&fn=Nellie&ln=Cheesman&st=r&ssrc=&pid=7716813

kiterunner
19-06-12, 14:47
Ooh, yes, that looks likely as they were living in Cromer Street in 1884. Thanks, Janet!

Merry
19-06-12, 14:53
there is a Margaret Flanagan on the 1861 census age 8 born Pimlico, Middlesex, with a father Cornelius, labourer

*sobs* I can't find the above. Do you have a ref?

kiterunner
19-06-12, 15:01
Piece 52, folio 79, page 27, Margaret Flannagan born Punlico, according to ancestry. The family goes across two pages and her surname is just dittoed from the previous page.

census record (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&gsfn=Marg*&gsln=Fl*g*n&sx=&f1=&f2=&f4=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1853&rs_81004011__date=0&f27=&f14=&f15=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1861&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=3&h=10765579&recoff=)

kiterunner
19-06-12, 15:33
There's a possible birth for Margaret - Margaret Flannagan Jun 1852, and a possible death for her mother - Margaret Flanagan Dec 1852 St Geo Han Sq. So it could be that Margaret's mother died when she was a baby, and possibly Catherine lived with Cornelius for years before they married and Margaret thought of her as her mother and got confused with her surname when she registered Frederick's birth? I suppose Cornelius and Catherine's marriage cert might help as it doesn't seem to be online.