1891/1901 help please.

[Olde Crone]

There surely cannot be TWO men called George Watkins Holden...or can there? And, could he have tried to divorce his wife but failed in 1897, then managed a divorce in 1907?

Please can anyone see

George Holden born 1846 in Peckham. By 1881 he is a photographer, so I would expect a similar occupation in 91 and 1901. He may or may not be using the middle name Watkins.

In 1894 George Watkins Holden married Maud Louisa Warnes. In 1897 he petitioned for divorce, citing c-orespondent Mark Athay. I haven't got the divorce documents so I don't know if the petition was successful - was he living alone in 1901?

In 1907, George Holden (no middle name) petitions for divorce against Maud ELIZA Holden - same couple, or just coincidence?

Thankyou for any assistance.

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

OC, here he is in 1891:

1891 Census
SUNDERLAND, Durham
RG12 piece 4139 folio 52 page 11
6, Peel Street, Bishop Wearmouth, Sunderland
RAINE, Mary Wife Widow F 49 1842 Boarding House Keeper Durham
RAINE, Violetta Daughter Single F 20 1871 Governess Boxgrove, Sussex
RAINE, Alice Daughter Single F 15 1876 Pupil Teacher Sunderland, County Durham
COLE, Edith Daughter Widow F 25 1866 Middlesex, London
COLE, Nora Granddaughter F 2 1889 Sunderland, County Durham
HOLDEN, George W Visitor Married M 43 1848 Photographer Kensington, London
BRUCE, William Boarder Single M 23 1868 Ship Draughtsman Scotland

But is there a muddle? This one was born in Kensington c. 1848

[Mary from Italy]

In 1891 he's visiting Mary Raine, widow, and family in Co. Durham. He gives his birthplace as Kensington, and he's still a photographer.

[Mary from Italy]

Snap :)

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou both very much. I've just googled him and discovered he was as big a liar as his brother (remember John Watkins Holden, the Mad Magician, lol) so knocking a couple of years off his age and poshing up his birthplace is as NOTHING, lol.

Apparently he married several times, possibly bigamously and fathered several illegitimate children along the way.

My research has been very flat for ages so I'm pleased to find something to get my teeth into again!

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Haven't found him yet in 1901 or 1911.

[Mary from Italy]

The Times reports on 10/8/1911 that a decree absolute was granted in the case of Holden v Holden and Farmiloe.

[annswabey]

I can look up the divorces OC - just give me the references!

[Langley Vale Sue]

1890 - 1915 Electoral registesr show a George Holden living at 28 Marmora Road, Peckham.

1939 ER shows George Holden, Julia Holden and Olive Ann Holden living at 34 St Marys Road, Peckham

Haven't found anything so far for 1891/1901 census, but 1911 shows a George Walkins Holden, phonographer(?), living at 55 Tudor Road, Cardiff. Married 17 years, wife Alice (38), son William (15) & Eric (6), daughters Midas(?) Maud (23) & Rachel Ann (24).

Looking at the image Rachel is a boarder, not a daughter, and her surname is Nelson.
It does look like Midas Maud and she is an actress!
William was born in Belfast, Eric in Cardiff and Midas Maud in Hull.
GWH did get around!

[Mary from Italy]

There's a report here of the first divorce hearing; you need to buy credits to read the article, but they give you some free credits if you haven't used the site before.

Hull Daily Mail
Wed 12 Jan 1898

George Watkins Holden, travelling photographer, petitioned Sir Francis Jeuno for a dissolution of his marriage, which took place All Saints' Church, Plymouth, ...

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?frontpage=false&sortorder=dayrecent&basicsearch=%22george%20watkins%20holden%22

[annswabey]

Looked them up - here are the details

J 77/997/283 More information Divorce Court File: 283. Appellant: George Holden. Respondent: Maude Eliza Holden. Co-respondent: Henry John Farmiloe. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. 1910

J 77/625/19078 More information Divorce Court File: 19078. Appellant: George Watkins Holden. Respondent: Maude Louise Holden. Co-respondent: Mark Owen Athay. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. 1897

I can look at them - just let me know!

[Langley Vale Sue]

OC, here he is in 1891:

1891 Census
SUNDERLAND, Durham
RG12 piece 4139 folio 52 page 11
6, Peel Street, Bishop Wearmouth, Sunderland
RAINE, Mary Wife Widow F 49 1842 Boarding House Keeper Durham
RAINE, Violetta Daughter Single F 20 1871 Governess Boxgrove, Sussex
RAINE, Alice Daughter Single F 15 1876 Pupil Teacher Sunderland, County Durham
COLE, Edith Daughter Widow F 25 1866 Middlesex, London
COLE, Nora Granddaughter F 2 1889 Sunderland, County Durham
HOLDEN, George W Visitor Married M 43 1848 Photographer Kensington, London
BRUCE, William Boarder Single M 23 1868 Ship Draughtsman Scotland

But is there a muddle? This one was born in Kensington c. 1848

OOh did this Alice become Mrs Holden? Is she the Alice Holden in 1911?

[Mary from Italy]

Well done Sue, I hadn't thought to look at the Welsh censuses. It does say photographer on the 1911 image.

[Mary from Italy]

OOh did this Alice become Mrs Holden? Is she the Alice Holden in 1911?

Don't think so, the birthplace is wrong.

George (photographer) and Alice are in Wales in 1901 with son William E Holden, 5, born Ireland. No other children with them.

[Langley Vale Sue]

In 1891 Maude L Holden is living in Hull with daughters Midas (2) & Gladys (1), both born in Hull, and states her husband is away and that he is a Master Mariner.

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, thankyou, loads there!

George died 1921 aged 75, so not him in the ERs...but who ARE those Holdens? George and John's mother, who was Emma Holden, was born in Peckham.

No, George married Alice Norman in 1898, she was his previous wife's mother's help, lol and was much younger than George.

George and Maud had a son George Ernest who was born in Belfast (!).

In 1881, George is "married" to emily Ann aged 21 and his daughter Ada, aged 14 is also living with them. Whose daughter she is, is not known.

George's brother, Dr John Watkins Holden, was married (1) to a theatrical, so Midas doesn't surprise me.

Ann - if it isn't too much bother I would be thrilled if you would look at the Holden/Holden/Athay divorce although it does look like the divorce went through, What a cheek he had, divorcing his wife for HER adultery, and then marrying the Nanny!

According to the Blog site I found, George was a well known photographer, but a second rate one I think.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I guess William and Eric are Alice's children and Midas is a child of a previous marriage. There's a blank line left between Eric and Midas on the census form, and Alice says she has two children born, two living.

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou Mary. I think Midas is Mauid's daughter but I'm just off to check.

OC

[Langley Vale Sue]

In 1891 Maude L Holden is living in Hull with daughters Midas (2) & Gladys (1), both born in Hull, and states her husband is away and that he is a Master Mariner.

1891 census shows Midas is Maud's daughter. I wonder what happened to Gladys?
Haven't found them on 1901 yet.

[Olde Crone]

Oh, HAHAHA!

Midas Maud HOLDEN Sep 1888 Hull 9d 280

OC

[Mary from Italy]

In 1871, George has yet another wife.

According to Ancestry, Georg Watkin Wolden, 26, wife Adelaide, 25, born Belfast, and daughter Ada Gretwide Wolden, 4, are living in Llandidloes, Montgomeryshire. They're boarders in the house of a builder and innkeeper called Evan Williams.

Looks like George was a busy man in Belfast.

[Mary from Italy]

Ada's birth:

Births Dec 1866
Holden Ada G Newton A. 5b 127

and possible baptism (from famsearch):

name: Mabel Ada Gertrude Clifton
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 01 May 1868
baptism/christening place: LYMPSTONE,DEVON,ENGLAND
father's name: Maximilian Clifton
mother's name: Adelaide Mary

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, well done Mary! Thankyou very much.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

It looks as though Adelaide's in Kircaldy, Scotland in 1881.

Margaret Flood, 66, head, annuitant, born Dumfrieshire
Adelaide Holden, 38, daughter, born Belfast
Frank W Holden, 7, grandson, mother's name Adelaide Holden, born Barmadoc, N Wales
Henry Flood, 4, grandson, mother's name Adelaide Holden, born Abbotshall, Fifeshire
Alexandra Walker, 8, granddaughter, born Abbotshall, Fifeshire

[Olde Crone]

thanks again Mary.

My head is reeeling so I'm off to bed. Tomorrow I will do a timeline so that I have some sort of grasp of who was up to what with whom and when.

They certainly took after their father, did George and John.

OC

[JessBow]

Bit of meat for Bones

Midas Marries Mcneil in Liverpool in 1925

(still in Cardiff in 1911)

[Olde Crone]

That's interesting, thanks Jess. There was an O'Neill on the other side of the family, but maybe just coincidence?

I can see one child born of the Midas/McNeill marriage. Wonder what happened to them?

OC

[kiterunner]

Archibald Charles McNeill died Jul-Sep 1974 in Stratton district, which ancestry says is in Cornwall. Date of birth 20 May 1926 which would (only just) fit with a registration in the Jul-Sep quarter and there are no other Archibald McNeills born in the Apr-Jun or Jul-Sep quarter so I reckon it's him.

It looks as though Midas and her husband emigrated to Australia as they appear on the e rolls over there.

[kiterunner]

Found them on a passenger list on FMP - Mr C McNeill, age 55, builder's labourer, and Mrs M M McNeill age 62 travelling from Southampton to Australia on the Asturias 23 Nov 1950.

[Olde Crone]

Wow, thankyou Kate!

OC

[annswabey]

OC

Just to confirm - you only want this divorce info, and not the other one?


J 77/625/19078 More information Divorce Court File: 19078. Appellant: George Watkins Holden. Respondent: Maude Louise Holden. Co-respondent: Mark Owen Athay. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. 1897

[Olde Crone]

Yes, just that one, thanks Ann.

OC

[annswabey]

OK, thanks.

[Olde Crone]

Can anyone see Midas in 1901? I've searched the Irish census but she isn't there.

Midas Maud (Holden, but any Midas will be of interest!) born 1888 Hull.

Her sister Gladys Elaine appears to have died unmarried in Blackpool, Sept. 1941.

Thanks!

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Can anyone see Midas in 1901? I've searched the Irish census but she isn't there.

Midas Maud (Holden, but any Midas will be of interest!) born 1888 Hull.

Her sister Gladys Elaine appears to have died unmarried in Blackpool, Sept. 1941.

Thanks!

OC

I can't see anyone called Midas (anything) in 1901 on Ancestry or FMP

[Olde Crone]

Thanks for looking Marg. How odd, I wonder where on earth they all were?

OC

[Janet]

1901:

Name: Midos Athey
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Mark Athey
Mother's name: Maud Athey
Gender: Female
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel: 53
Household schedule number: 120
Piece: 2860
Folio: 65
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Mark Athey 30
Maud Athey 35
Midos Athey 13
Gladys Athey 11
Minnie Athey 6
Frank Athey 1
George Athey 9

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=WARRG13_2859_2860-0544&fn=Midos&ln=Athey&st=r&ssrc=&pid=16468665

He is a photographer, b. Macclesfield, Cheshire.

Will that do it?

[Merry]

Marriages Dec 1898

Athey Mark Owen Aston 6d 753 <<<<<<<<<<<<
DRAPER William Aston 6d 753
Holden Maude Aston 6d 753 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hubbard Eliza Aston 6d 753

[Merry]

In 1911 Mark Owen Athey is a boarder in a house in Leeds. He says he is married (12 years, crossed through because only women were supposed to state marriage details)

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/RG14_27111_0403_03/36330809?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911England%26so%3d2%26rank%3 d0%26gsfn%3dmark%26gsln%3dathey%26gs1co%3d1%252cAl l%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%26sbo%3d0%26ufr%3d0%26wp %3d4%253b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr%26pro x%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-b%26o_iid%3d21417%26o_lid%3d21417%26o_sch%3dWeb%2b Property%26offerid%3d0%253a21318%253a0&ssrc=

[Janet]

Found by Googling "Mark Owen Athey":

[Merry]

I can't see Maud* in 1911.

[Merry]

In 1901 Mark and Maud have a son, Frank aged 1, b 1899. I can't see him in 1911 either (b Birmingham).

He died decades later and there is an army service record in the Ancestry pensions section, starting in 1914 (when he was 15?) which states nok Mark Owen Athey, father. So, he should be on the 1911.

[Langley Vale Sue]

Maude Athey and son Frank are in Cardiff in 1911 at 145 Donald Street, Roath, Cardiff.

ATHEY, Maude L Wife 45 b.Lowestoft
ATHEY, Frank Son 11 b.Birmingham
ATHEY, Madge Dr 9 b.Birmingham
ATHEY, Edna Dr 8 b. Birmingham
LONG, Walter Boarder 21 Painter b .Bristol
HOLDEN, Winifred Dr 16 b. Hull
LONG, Edward Boarder 25 Painter b.Bristol
LEACH, Tomas Lodger Married 29 Fitter b.Rochdale
LEACH, Ida Lodger Married 2 years 24 b. India


It states Maude has been married for 12 years and has 3 children, all living.

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, wonderful stuff, thankyou so much. I searched for ATHAY and I searched for Holden Maud but missed the above.

Who is Winifred then and why do both Maud and Adelaide have sons called Frank? And where is Gladys, who dies unmarried in Blackpool in 1941 (I think).

OC

[Langley Vale Sue]

Winifred is listed as Minnie on 1901. but looking at the image I think it says Winnie.

[Margaret in Burton]

1901:

Name: Midos Athey
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Mark Athey
Mother's name: Maud Athey
Gender: Female
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel: 53
Household schedule number: 120
Piece: 2860
Folio: 65
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Mark Athey 30
Maud Athey 35
Midos Athey 13
Gladys Athey 11
Minnie Athey 6
Frank Athey 1
George Athey 9

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=WARRG13_2859_2860-0544&fn=Midos&ln=Athey&st=r&ssrc=&pid=16468665

He is a photographer, b. Macclesfield, Cheshire.

Will that do it?



Ah! Didn't try spelling differences and FMP didn't pick it up with their variations.

[Langley Vale Sue]

There is a marriage for a Gladys Elaine Holden in Cardiff June qtr 1908 to Joseph Henry BIRD.

In 1911 they are living at 120 Diana Street, Roath Park, Cardiff with 2 year old son John Henry Charles and a nurse, Sarah Rodaway.

[Olde Crone]

Ah, thankyou Sue. As Elaine is quite an unusual name I thought the Blackpool one must be her especially as the age was spot on. Just goes to show!

AH! If Maude says she has had three children, all living, (Midas, Gladys, Winifred) then William isn't her son (as I suspected all along) and George Watkins impregnated the children's nanny when she was barely 15. Urrrgggh.

OC

[Langley Vale Sue]

Surely Maude's 3 children in 1911 are Frank, Madge & Edna from her marriage to Mark Athey.

[Olde Crone]

Oh, of course, I keep forgetting it is children of the marriage. Dang it, there goes another great theory.

OC

[Merry]

Maude Athey and son Frank are in Cardiff in 1911 at 145 Donald Street, Roath, Cardiff

lol silly me for not searching for Ancestry's spelling of Frank - Lpank!! lol

[Langley Vale Sue]

No wonder I couldn't find it on Ancestry!:d

[Olde Crone]

Found Maud and Mark's marriage on familysearch - he upped his age by 5 years, she downed hers by 2 and called herself a widow, lol.

OC

[Janet]

Ah! Didn't try spelling differences and FMP didn't pick it up with their variations.

Trying to remember exactly what I did do, Marg. I was more than half asleep by that time! :o I was in Ancestry and I know I was getting tons of the wrong people named Midas (who knew?!?) by using first name and no surname, so then I think I just chucked out every field but given name and surname and went with a wide scatter-shot of M?d?s Maud Ath?y. I must have unchecked "Match all items exactly", because otherwise you get zero good matches. Somehow, suddenly it appeared.

[Olde Crone]

It was bugging me why George didn't seem to marry until 1898.

He DID marry Adelaide - in 1866 in Scotland. She died in 1894 and I expect that is why he suddenly married Maud that year.

The other thing which is bugging me, is why there were apparently no children between 1873 and 1889, with either Adelaide or Emily Ann.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

AH! If Maude says she has had three children, all living, (Midas, Gladys, Winifred) then William isn't her son (as I suspected all along) and George Watkins impregnated the children's nanny when she was barely 15. Urrrgggh.



I'm getting one hit for a baptism of William Holden, parents George Holden and Alice Norman, in Antrim in 1895 (Belfast is in Co. Antrim):

http://ifhf.rootsireland.ie

I haven't clicked to view the free index page in case I might need my 10 free pages later, so I don't know if it'll give you any more information without buying credits.

[Mary from Italy]

The other thing which is bugging me, is why there were apparently no children between 1873 and 1889, with either Adelaide or Emily Ann.


It looks as though he and Adelaide were already separated by about 1877; she's living with her mother in Scotland in 1881, and the household includes her son Henry Flood, born in Scotland c. 1877. I assume Frank Walpole Holden born in Wales in 1873 was George's son.

Midas was born in 1888, so that still leaves a gap of about 12-15 years between children.

[Olde Crone]

That's great Mary, thankyou, my theory proved that William was the child of George and Alice! I don't think the details will add much to the sorry tale.

I've found a few possible births and deaths in Wales in the early 1870s, but it's just guesswork really.

OC

[annswabey]

Have copied 3 pages from the Holden/Holden/Athey divorce file. Winifred May was the daughter of George and Maude. If you pm me your email address I'll scan and send them to you. There's a copy of the marriage cert too, which is quite handy!

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou so much for this Ann - I will pm you.

OC

[anne fraser]

You might find something here: http://www.victorianphotographers.co.uk/index.php/victorian-photographers-h/holden-george-watkins/p_26446.html
http://www.victorianphotographers.co.uk/index.php/victorian-photographers-h/holden-george-watkins/p_26446.html http://photo-sleuth.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/sepia-saturday-97-geo-w-holden-brother.html

[Olde Crone]

Anne

Yes, have seen that already - the blog is more to do with his professional life I think. I've emailed the blogger but haven't had a reply. Thankyou though!

OC

[SusanSadler]

Bit of meat for Bones

Midas Marries Mcneil in Liverpool in 1925

(still in Cardiff in 1911)

I found out that Midas is my grandmother :)

[Olde Crone]

Hello Susan

Have you investigated backwards yet? If not, you are in for an incredible story , lol. Briefly, George Watkins Holden and his more famous brother Dr John Watkins Holden (magician) were the illegitimate offspring of the Lord Lieutenant of Brecon, John Lloyd Vaughan Watkins and Emma Holden (background unknown). Lloyd Vaughan Watkins was from an important and ancient family of landed gentry. There were other illegitimate children, at least three, two of which were born to his second wife before their marriage and who were never acknowledged until JLVW died!

Let me know if you want any more detail, lol.

OC

[SusanSadler]

Dear OC
Thank you for this history although I'm not sure how I'm related to them? I'm looking for information about my father Archibald Charles McNeill, who I never really knew which is very sad as I'll never get the chance now as I know he died at sea, Cornwall. I'd love to know more about him.
You're a star for helping!
Susan

[Olde Crone]

Susan

If your grandmother was Midas McNeill, then she was born Midas Holden, the daughter of George Watkins Holden ( your great grandfather) and George Watkins Holden was the illegitimate son of John Lloyd Vaughan Watkins ( your great great grandfather) who was Lord Lieutenant of Brecon.

Can I suggest you start a new thread about Archibald McNeill, as the researchers on this forum won't look at this thread, being heartily sick of my Holdens, lol!

OC

[Janet]

I'm sure OC is just kidding, Susan. Of course we're all on the edges of our seats at the mere mention of the name Holden. :rolleyes:

But her advice is almost always spot on, so you probably should indeed start a new thread on Archibald Charles McNeill.

And welcome to the forum!

[SusanSadler]

Am I related to you ladies? I'm not sure how to start a new thread but I'll have a look x

[Olde Crone]

No, not related as far as I yet know. I researched Dr John Watkins Holden out of noseyness because I couldn't stop once I'd started!

To post a new thread, go back to the Research Board header (research questions) and see the post new thread button top left.

OC

[SusanSadler]

Archibald Charles McNeill died Jul-Sep 1974 in Stratton district, which ancestry says is in Cornwall. Date of birth 20 May 1926 which would (only just) fit with a registration in the Jul-Sep quarter and there are no other Archibald McNeills born in the Apr-Jun or Jul-Sep quarter so I reckon it's him.

It looks as though Midas and her husband emigrated to Australia as they appear on the e rolls over there.

Hello Kiterunner, Archibald Charles McNeill was my father and I'm looking for more information on him. Can you help please?

Thank you
Susan

[Merry]

What did you want to know?

Here he is, with his mother, on the 1939 Register:

103 Southbank Road , Southport C.B., Lancashire, England

Midas M McNeill dob 19 Aug 1888 Female occ Unpaid Domestic Duties married
Archibald C McNeill dob 20 May 1926 Male At School Single

The transcription of the above on Findmypast has Archibald's dob as 10 Apr 1915, but the correct date is on the actual mage!

[SusanSadler]

Thank you Merry
Do you know if he had any brothers or sisters? Did he have any other children? I know his death was on the national news. I just wondered if I would ever be able to see it?
These are maybe questions you won't be able to answer, but thank you for your time

[Macbev]

Midas Maud McNeill died 3 Sep 1984, aged 96 yrs in Perth, Western Australian, resident in the suburb of Maylands. She was cremated at Karrakatta Cemetery, where her ashes were dispersed

[Merry]

I have copied the last few posts on this thread over to the new thread here:

www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=26439

[Olde Crone]

Thanks Merry!

OC