Herbert Percy Page - join the dots

[Uncle John]

Harriett Ada Tyler (b. 1870 Bishops Stortford, died 1971 aged 100) married William James Page in 1897 in Hackney, Middx. In 1901 they are at 31 Welllington Road Hackney with a son Joseph William aged 3 born Stoke Newington.

William James died some time before 1911 (too many listed to pin him down).
In 1911 Harriet is a widow at 15 Clapton Square, Lower Clapton, a monthly nurse. Joseph William is at the National Children's Home near Warrington.

Harriet had a sister Ann Gertrude (1868-1944) whose executor was Herbert Percy Page, shop manager. She also had another sister Martha Mary (1861-1954) who was a Salvation Army officer. She moved to Navarino Road (see below) in 1930.

From 1925 to 1926 Harriett lived at 21 Clapton Square Hackney and from 1927 to 1954 at 35 Navarino Road Hackney (London electoral rolls). Various other relatives pop up there from time to time, but Herbert Percy is with her all the time.

I have found Herbert Percy's birth in q4 1902 in Hackney but I can't find him at all in the 1911 census. From his date of birth and his place of residence I assume he is Harriett's son. I have no idea where Joseph Wiliam went after 1911.

This is a twig of my wife's tree (great-grandfather's second marriage) so I don't want to buy any certificates.

[Lindsay]

No help at all, UJ, but my grandfather was born in Navarino Road - before your family were living there, though :D

In fact checking, he was born at number 35! What a small world!

[kiterunner]

Not managed to find anything, sorry.

[Janet]

Are you sure of the 1902 birth, UJ? If you are, these would all be red herrings.

I know Stoke by Nayland is not Stoke Newington and the ages are a bit out, but is there any connection with this Annie Page, Nurse Domestic, 47, and Herbert Page, 11, living with the 80-year-old widower Charles Norfolk, Market Gardener on School Street, Stoke by Nayland on the 1911? Or had you already ruled that out?

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=Page&gsln_x=XO&msbdy=1902&msrpn__ftp=Mendlesham%2c+Suffolk%2c+England&msrpn=87559&msrpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5285%7c87559% 7c0%7c&uidh=9uh&msbdp=1&pcat=1911UKI&h=43539656&db=1911England&indiv=1

Name Age
Charles Norfolk 80
Annie Page 47
Bertie Page 16
Dinah Page 13
Herbert Page 11

I was going to say no, it can't be him because Ancestry was trying to show me that here is that Herbert Page on the 1901, but when I looked at it I found a very curious mix of next-door neighbors.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1901&h=9988533&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=2352

Household number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
34 Joseph Auger Head 35 abt 1866 Male Trwenham Berkshire England
34 Ada Auger Wife 29 abt 1872 Female Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
34 Edward Auger Son 9 abt 1892 Male Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
34 Bertie Auger Son 8 abt 1893 Male Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
34 Edith Auger Daughter 7 abt 1894 Female Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
34 Percy Auger Son 2 abt 1899 Male Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
35 Headley Page Head 35 abt 1866 Male Langham Essex England [Headley Page is a shopkeeper.]
35 Annie Page Wife 35 abt 1866 Female Gt Horksley Essex England
35 John Bugg Stepson 16 abt 1885 Male Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England [I think Bugg is Brigg.]
35 Bertie Page Son 6 abt 1895 Male Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
35 Reginald Page Son 5 abt 1896 Male Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
35 Dinah Page Daughter 3 abt 1898 Female Stoke by Nayland Suffolk England
35 Herbert Page Son 1 abt 1900 Male Stoke by Nayland Suffolk

[Uncle John]

No I'm not sure of the 1902 birth. But he is the only Herbert Percy Page with a birth in roughly the correct area. The only concrete facts I have are where he was living all those years and that he was his (presumed) aunt's executor.

I don't think the Stoke by Nayland family is connected. The Tylers seem firmly rooted in Bishops Stortford and William Page was born in North London.

It's the fascination of finding all the inter-connections that made me look into this twig in detail.

[Janet]

Hope you find the missing pieces eventually, Uncle John!

[bcbrit]

Hi Uncle John,

Here's a possibilty for Joseph William Page :

From ancestry.ca

Joseph William Page
b. 16 Jan 1898, London England
Residence - Binbrook, Ontario Canada
Enlisted 1916
Mother Mrs Ada Page
34 Clapton Square, Lower Clapton, London

Off to see if I can find more records,

bcbrit

[bcbrit]

Okay, I had another look, and couldn't find anything else beyond the Canadian Soldiers of WW1.
There is a posible death - if he came back to Canada. Many Englishman who enlisted in Canada stayed in the UK after the war.

I couldn't find him as a British Home Child.

Possible death - Joseph Page b, abt 1898 died 21 May 1988 in Victoria, BC.

If I get a chance to go to my local library in the next few days, I will look up the dearh for you.

bcbrit

[bcbrit]

Hi Uncle John,

A possible death for Herbert.

Herbert P. Page
b. abt 1903
d. Sept Q 1967
Hackney 5b - 503

bcbrit

[marquette]

For a minute, I thought William James Page, might be the William Page who is in my tree - born about 1874 in Birmingham, last seen in 1891 with his father Joseph Page in Walthamstow !

But I think its more likely that he was born William James Page in Haverstock Hill in 1872.

Pity, we could have solved two problems !


Di

[Uncle John]

Thanks very much bcbrit. These leads look very promising.

[Uncle John]

I've found [EDIT] another possible death, also in B.C.

William Joseph Page

Birth: abt 1899
Age: 68
Date: 4 Nov 1967
Location: Vancouver
Registration number: 1967-09-014077
BCA Number: B13286
GSU Number: 2033930

[bcbrit]

Hi UJ,

I have found his death.

If you can pm me your email address, I will scan and email the death registration.

Do you want me to send his WW 1 attestation records too ?

bcbrit

[Uncle John]

Thanks bcbrit. Email address on its way. The WWI attestation is on Ancestry, so I only need the death details, thank you.

[therices185]

Hi Uncle John, I may be able to help you a little with Percy Page .... Cousin Percy as I knew him ... if you are still looking for connections. Ada, Mary and Annie were all sisters of my great grandmother Ellen Rice (nee Tattingham/Tyler). Maybe the names by which they were known within the family being different from the official given names on documentation has not helped you in your research. I think you have discovered quite a bit of the information I have been able to put together about them. There was another sister who passed away as a teenager. You are certainly correct that Percy was the son of Ada and nephew of Annie. Ada also had a daughter, Gladys Ada (or the other way around), born about the same time as the boys. In the 1911 census she was living at Enfield with my gt grandparents and one of her cousins. It looks very much as though the children were split up after the death of their father. I have memories of visting Navarino Road on a couple of occasions in the fifties. I also have a couple of old photos which might be of interest to you. Please get back to me if you are still looking for information. Best regards, Tony Rice

[Uncle John]

Hi Tony

Welcome to GF and as part of this remote twig of my wife's family. As I mentioned further up the thread this is not much more than a "join the dots" exercise for me as the connection is a bit remote. My wife's great-grandfather was Henry Bryan. His second wife was Mary Ann (Tattingham/Tyler/Vivash) who was marrying for the third time.

Ellen (aged 4 in 1861, died 1936) was born before Mary Ann married Aaron Tyler in 1858.
Elizabeth J (aged 2 in 1861 and 12 in 1871) must be the one who died.
Martha Mary (1861 to 1954) never married.
Ann Gertrude (1868 to 1944) never married.
Harriet Ada (1870 to 1971) married Wiliam James Page, who I can't find after 1901.

Mary Ann doesn't appear to have had any children with John Vivash, who seems to have died not long after she married him.

As a bit of background, Henry Bryan was a gunmaker. He was born in Birmingham and oscillated between there and Enfield. His only son Walter seems to have worked in the motor tyre industry.

[Uncle John]

Found a birth for Ada Gladys Page. 1911 census says born Stoke Newington aged 5. Stoke Newington is in Hackney registration district (my mother was born there), so the matching birth is Hackney q4 1905, vol 1b page 402.

I had already identified your great-grandparents Isaac and Ellen plus their 3 children, though with very sketchy information for the children.

[therices185]

G’Day Uncle John.

Thanks for your replies. When I saw Percy Page listed I thought there might be a closer connection between us. Never mind; you never know what you are going to turn up in this hobby! And Henry Bryan was married to one of my gtgtgrandmothers, Mary-Ann.

Percy Page was my grandfather's (Tom Rice) cousin, though my dad always referered to him as cousin, and I have done the same. I recall meeting Percy a number of times when with my Dad visiting Navarino Road when I was quite young; about late 40s early 50s. At that time Percy was a publican, in the Hackney area I think, though I don't know whether he owned the pub, or was manager.

Mary-Ann and Henry did adopt a daughter, Ida Rose (Rosa) Charman. Some researchers of the Charman family who asked if I had any information alerted me to this. I didn’t at the time, but have been able to find out some, both from their research and mine. My first thought was why would two people already in their fifties want to adopt a child? I could think of a number of reasons, but have not yet found a satisfactory answer.

Ida Rose was born to Emily Charman at Ivy House Maternity Hospital, run by the Salvation Army, on 3rd May 1892. Ivy House, at 271 Mare Street, Hackney, was a 25-bed maternity hospital for unmarried mothers, most of whom were between fifteen and twenty years old. The hospital catered for women both from London and elsewhere. In 1909, 286 babies were born at the hospital, of which 30 died, with premature cases said to be the main cause of mortality. As well as providing immediate medical care, the Army found work in service for many young women, so that they could support their child. Where possible, they were placed in households where only one servant was kept, so that they would be spared embarrassment from the others finding out their "secret". The Army also made efforts to locate the children's fathers, with the aim of obtaining financial support, either voluntarily or through a bastardy order.

Ivy House also acted as a training school for midwives, some of whom continued to work for the Army either in its Hospital Department or in its Slum Department. Next door to Ivy House, at 273-75 Mare Street was a Dr Barnados Home. Mary Tyler, a daughter of Mary Ann was a member of the Salvation Army, rising to the rank of Major; maybe there’s a connection here?

Ida Rose’s birth certificate (are you interested in a copy?) shows her born to Emily Charman, a domestic servant of Williams Villa, Meon Road, South Acton. Emily Charman is not listed on the 1891 Census at Williams Villa, Meon Road, South Acton. Listed at that address are James Pullen, a railway signalman, his wife Mary, and their children Charles (12) and Lillian (9). No servant is listed. I have been unable to find anything else about Emily, but would welcome news.

The 1901 census has Ida Rose adopted by Mary Ann and Henry Bryan, and living at 50 Connop Road, Enfield Wash. At this time, as I understand, legal adoption had not been instigated, so hard to find out anything much. Living at 56 Connop Road at this time were Ellen Rice/Tattingham/Tyler and her family, and there are links with her children, Ida Rose’s “cousins”. On 12th April 1919 Ida Rose married Joseph Thomas Cowlin, at St Helen’s Church, North Kensington, Middlesex. She gave her father as George Henry Charman, a fitter, deceased. One of the witness signatories is N M Rice (Nellie Mary Jane, daughter of Ellen), the other H J Cowlin.

The next I can find is Ida Rose migrated to USA in 1949, and returned to UK in 1959. However, husband Joseph Thomas Cowlin died in England in 1958. There must be a story here somewhere, if only we can find it!! Ida Rose died in 1971 at Hillingdon, registered Jan Q at Hillingdon, Gtr London, vol 5c, p771.

Moving on, you mention in your notes that Henry Bryan had only one son, Walter. I have also found an Albert Bryan born to Henry and Martha (nee Pearson) at Enfield on 1st February 1872, listed on the 1881 census, and dying at Ealing on 24th January 1955. I have seven daughters to Henry and Martha, viz.,
Clara (1864 – 1944) 1871 census
Lucy Minnie (1867 - ?) 1871 and 1881 censuses
Emily (1869 – 1951) 1871 and 1881 censuses
Mabel Lilly (1877 - ?) 1881 census
Gertrude (1879 - ?) 1881 and 1891 censuses
Edith M (1881 - ?) 1891 census
Lizzie E (1883 - ?)
As they are relatively distant twigs on my tree, I’ve not tried too hard to find further details, but I’m sure they would not be hard to find, and guess that you may have some anyway from your own research.

Finally you mention tracking down the three children of Isaac and Ellen Rice, but having few details. If you want to develop these twigs, I am happy to provide some information, or you can find them on my Rice Family Tree at Ancestry UK.

Best wishes, Tony

[Uncle John]

Hi Tony

Thanks for your epistle which I've now saved. I'd love a copy of Ida Rose's birth certificate and will pm my email address.

Going forward with Ida Rose, husband Joseph Thomas Cowlin ran a coachbuilding business. I've tracked their home and business addresses through the London electoral rolls, ending with Joseph's probate in 1958. The business is still in existence. I don't think Ida emigrated - she went on regular visits to a daughter who lived in the USA. There were two daughters: Ida M (1920 to 1999) who married Jacob Snyder in 1945. They lived in Altoona, Pennsylvania and had a son born in 1947 who is presumably still living. And Lois born 1929 who married George Rule in 1949 in Weymouth who had a son in 1950.

Joseph Thomas Cowlin must have been quite well-off. He left her nearly £3700, in 1958/9 a fair amount of money. In 1948 she returned from New York on the Queen Mary.

The children of Henry Bryan and Martha Pearson are my wife's close relatives.
Clara married George Sandford in 1892 and died in 1934 (but I'll look at your 1944 death as well).
Lucy Minnie was in service all her life, didn't marry and died in 1960.
Emily married Thomas Bunn in 1898 and died in 1951. They were Salvationists.
Albert married Lavender Ridgewell in 1900 and died in 1955. He was a sawyer in a corrugated paper factory.
Walter married Dora Green in 1898 and died in 1952. He was the one who worked in a tyre factory.
Mabel Lily maried John Daniel Ball in 1902 and died in 1968. Their son Eric was a well-known Salvationist composer and conductor.
Gertrude was born in 1878 and was in domestic service. I can't find her after 1911.
Edith May married Alfred Mitchell in 1908 after moving to Glasgow. She died in 1956 in Scotland.
Lizzie Eveline disappears after the 1891 census, so I suspect she died.
As well as Ida, there was Ann Gertrude Tyler, Mary Ann's daughter from her first marriage to Aaron Tyler. She was in domestic service and died in 1944 at the same address as the 1911 census (Davies family). She didn't marry. Her executor was Herbert Percy Page.

I'll take a look at your Rice family tree some time soon.

Best wishes, John

[marquette]

Hi Again

I have been following this thread, as my great-grandfather was of the PAGE name, and its quite unusual. His lot were originally from Shropshire via Birmingham and his brothers settled in and around London in the late 19th century.

And now the Cowlin name pops in too ! If you ever come across Frederick Frank Cowlin marrying Charlotte Norris Page, I would be delighted to hear from you !

Great grandfather Page and his brothers, father, uncles and brother-in-law were all carpenters/joiners/builders - his brothers were Thomas, Joseph L and A.H. (Albert Henry) Page.

Di

[Merry]

If you ever come across Frederick Frank Cowlin marrying Charlotte Norris Page, I would be delighted to hear from you !

Marriages Dec 1897
Cowlin Frederick Frank Wandsworth 1d 1384
Page Charlotte Norris Wandsworth 1d 1384

and the parish register image is on Ancestry (top right). The names are badly indexed, but the writing isn't great!:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_198490-00324&fn=Charlotte+Maria&ln=Page&st=d&ssrc=&pid=6790384

Now I'm thinking probaby you didn't mean you hadn't got this, but that you would like to hear from someone if they had Charlotte ad her husband in their tree? Am leaving this here anyway, just in case!