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Somebody in the 1890s kept a clothes shop in Hull. They used to send material to my great-granny in Norfolk for her to make up into clothes for her numerous children.
I don't have a date, I don't have a name. I have always assumed that it was last season's offcuts from the sort of shop depicted in the tv version of Larkrise, but probably not so grand as that.
Does anyone have ancestors who did that sort of thing? How were they described in censuses? My farming families all seem to have 8 - 10 children, so there a lot of possibilities out there and I may not spot them when I find them.
Wouldn't they be more likely to have a drapers shop?
kiterunner
30-05-12, 12:42
I have some in my tree who were both tailors and drapers (i.e. one person did both).
ElizabethHerts
30-05-12, 12:43
I would also have thought they would have been called drapers. I come from several branches of drapers.
Some had small shops, but my great-great-grandparents had a large shop in Guildford High Street, a very good location.
ElizabethHerts
30-05-12, 12:44
Phoenix, a trade directory for the time would probably give you the information you need.
Somebody in the 1890s kept a clothes shop in Hull. They used to send material to my great-granny in Norfolk for her to make up into clothes for her numerous children.
Any idea of the connection between the Hull people and the Norfolk people?
Any idea of the connection between the Hull people and the Norfolk people?
Absolutely none! As it's likely to be either maiden ladies or widows and it may anyway be on the distaff side I have no idea of names. Because of the vast, rambling nature of the families, I would have thought it would be no more removed than first cousins, but that still gives me plenty of scope.
Thank you for the word "drapers" I knew dress shop was wrong, but couldn't think of the right term.
Thanks for the suggestion of directories. That would help narrow things down.
This has always been pushed to the backburner because I have so few clues to go on. I don't even know if the cloth arrived regularly, say every christmas, or if it was a one off when they purchased too much of an unfashionable shade. History does not record what the children thought of their clothes!
You can search FMP without a name - I tried: residence Hull, born Norfolk, occ Draper* and got three matches in 1891. You never know, you might recognise a surname if you play about with the variables.
I am making progress on this - I think!
One of Granny's great aunts was Mary Ann Elizabeth Benton, born Thursford 1844.
I have found a Mary Ann Brown b 1844, Thursford.
1881 Tiverton, Devon
1901 Hyde, Cheshire
1911 Hyde, Cheshire
She is a dressmaker and husband Edwin/Edward is a draper on the earlier censuses (I have found them in 1891 as well)
The only snag is that they say they have been married 24 years:d
Most likely marriage so far is to an Ernest Augustus!
I think Hyde and Hull could very easily be muddled, but need to find them both in earlier censuses. He was apparently born in Dukinfield, Chershire.
Was she only married the once?
I am beginning to wonder, Merry.
It is, of course, possible that one of them had a living spouse, so didn't actually marry until they could, and only moved back to his home territory once they were legally married.
One possibility is Mary Ann Keeley/Corley/Heely. I think I need my supper to calm me down & search logically!
Why can't I find her as a child (1851) or a birth reg?
Mary Ann Jarvis? She is in Thursford in 1851.
Mary Ann Keeley etc is the wife of Isaac Keeley in 1871, but the enumerators can never decide how it is spelled.
I thought I was looking for Mary Ann Elizabeth Benton, not Mary Ann Jarvis??
One of Granny's great aunts was Mary Ann Elizabeth Benton, born Thursford 1844.
*****:o
I have Benton on the brain. Sorry, Merry. Her mother was a Benton and several of the children have Benton as a middle name.
lol! OK, so Mary Ann Jarvis would seem to have married Isaac Keely in 1859. I see them in 1871 with various children. Have you found any of those children in 1881?
Thank you, Merry!
No is the short answer. I've been busy conclusively eliminating the other Marys & Marias b Thursford.
Mary Ann Brunton is Starling in 1881
Maria B Hill is Woodhouse in 1881
Maria Spencer is Newton in 1881
Mary Ann Lee is 1851 is actually Margaret.
So, the only other Mary Ann is Mary Ann Dunthorn bp 18 September 1843 Thursford, d of William & Mary. Down as Dunnington in 1861
Now I'll hunt for those children!
Most peculiar.
Isaac marries Mary Ann Jarvis after banns in Feltwell. Both otp. Mary Ann is shown as 19, no father's name.
In 1861, they are living in Hilgay with baby Sarah A aged 1. Isaac is an ag lab, Mary Ann a dressmaker.
In 1881, Isaac appears to be in Wisbech Union Workhouse - as an unmarried shoemaker.
So far, I cannot find any of the children in 1881.
I think the birthplace for Sarah A. Keeley/Kelley on the 1871 is obviously meant to be Feltwell. I put in a correction on that too.
Isaac marries Mary Ann Jarvis after banns in Feltwell. Both otp. Mary Ann is shown as 19, no father's name.
So, does that make her the wrong bride?
On the other thread you said
Mary Ann, similarly, is at home in Brinton in 1861 and I can't find her either in 1871.
I presume that is Mary Ann Jarvis, the dau of John and Elizabeth b abt 1845 in Thursford?
On this thread you said:
Mary Ann Jarvis? She is in Thursford in 1851.
But the above Mary Ann (b abt 1845) is in Brinton in 1851.
The dau of John and Elizabeth isn't the wife of Isaac as they married in 1859 and J and E's daughter was still single in 1861, so does that mean Isaac and his wife are a red herring? (I hope so as they are being difficult!)
I hope this isn't your Mary Ann:
Deaths Jun 1865
JARVIS Mary Ann Erpingham 4b 42
Brinton is in Erpingham district.
The trouble with knowing a family too well is that you quote from memory! I'd forgotten the move to Brinton was in the 1850s. There are a lot of family graves in the churchyard commemorating lots of siblings, but Mary Ann isn't mentioned.
I think the Mary Ann in Feltwell may be a red herring, but I'm not sure. It would mean that a 15 yr old passes herself off as 19, has a child AND remains in the bosom of the family as unmarried.
Bother - the theory is so good!
kiterunner
31-05-12, 10:34
There is an Edward Brown / Mary Jarvis marriage on FamilySearch, 12 Aug 1878 Shrewsbury, Shropshire, his age 34, his father Edward Brown, her age 32, her father John Jarvis. If only it was a full transcription showing occupations! Anyway, possible?
Edit - oops, getting confused with the two threads. Will copy the above onto Edward's thread.
Wow!
Ages are right, as are parents on both sides. That instantly makes her far more respectable!
It looks as if Edward and Mary Ann both left wills or admons. I think Edward died in March 1917 and Mary Ann in Nov 1926. As neither had any children, any money must have gone to a cats' home or their families.
I cannot imagine that they would have expected anyone from Norfolk to administer their estate. I suspect they would have used solicitors, but I would be interested in any details, particularly their addresses, which I hope were in Hyde.
Yay!
I finally got to look at Ancestry to find Mary Ann's probate. One of her executors was Elvina Woodgett. (Mary Ann's sister Elvina Jarvis marrried Robert Woodgett) Proof conclusive, I think!
Thank you everyone who helped nail this little legend.
With current access to Ancestry - and no sign of Mary Ann Jarvis in 1871, I have revisited this research, to try to see whether "my" Mary married Isaac Keeley.
Isaac appears to have had five children:
Sarah A b 1860, married Henry Bone 1880
Edna b 1864, married William James Hyde 1888
George & Frederick - both died in March quarter 1872
Eliza b 1876 - living with Sarah in 1881 and described as Henry Bone's sister in law. Eliza moves back to West Ham where she was born in 1891 and cannot be positively identified thereafter. She is possibly working in Lambeth Workhouse.
Isaac is back in Cambridge in 1879, charged with larceny, and in Wisbech workhouse in 1881.
Isaac's wife is described as a dressmaker - which is where this thread began.
Do I assume that "my" Mary Ann Jarvis having lied to get married, lost two babies, abandons two teenage daughters and two year old Eliza to marry bigamously under her maiden name in Shropshire in 1878? And keeps in contact with her family on terms of such amity that she is sending her niece material for her great nieces and nephews?
Or has the marriage broken up much earlier and Eliza is really Sarah's daughter?
I can't see a Norfolk birth for the "other" Mary Jarvis. It should be a Walsingham reg, and the Mary Ann Elizabeth Jarvis b 1839 is Mary's elder sister who was buried in Thursford 5 August 1843.
kiterunner
06-10-14, 08:29
I can't see a Norfolk birth for the "other" Mary Jarvis. It should be a Walsingham reg, and the Mary Ann Elizabeth Jarvis b 1839 is Mary's elder sister who was buried in Thursford 5 August 1843.
Not all births were registered at that time.
I don't think the Mary Ann who married Isaac Keely is your Mary Ann, especially since your Mary Ann is still with her parents on the 1861 census, but I can't find her in 1871 to prove it!
kiterunner
06-10-14, 09:30
There is a Mary Ann Moss baptised 14 Jul 1841 at Thursford, daughter of Lydia. On the 1841 census this Mary Ann is age 1, with Lidia 24 and grandparents John and Pheaby Moss at Thursford. In 1851 Mary is age 9 with grandmother Phoebe and some siblings or cousins. In 1861 Phoebe has Lydia with her, plus grandchildren Edna 13, Anne 11 and John 6.
Mary Ann Moss of Thursford married John Jarvis of Field Dalling 6 Sep 1857 at Field Dalling. Her age is given as 19, spinster, no father's name. She made her mark. John is full age, bachelor, son of Richard Jarvis.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12392-127945-75?cc=1416598&wc=92BP-DPL:29548601,29373001,29414601
I haven't figured out what happened to this couple yet. I know that the Mary Ann Jarvis who married Isaac Keely is down as a spinster, but I wonder whether this is her. I don't suppose you have a birth cert for any of Isaac and Mary Ann's children to see whether it gives any other surnames for her? Or one of those Norfolk baptisms that gives mother's maiden name? Were all the Keely children born in Norfolk?
Thanks, Kite!
I've been offline for the last couple of days - apologies!
That John Jarvis signed up for the army at Letheringsett 19 Jan 1859 and served in the East Indies. By 1871 he is married to someone entirely different with a very young family, so either his Mary died in India, or the Army served as a divorce.
I'd certainly prefer an unrelated person to be marrying Isaac. Especially as they are living in Hilgay in 1861, where there was sure to be someone who would have known "my" Mary Jarvis.
I have also found this:
Name: Lizzie Brand Keely
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 04 Aug 1878
Event Place: Holy Trinity, Canning-Town, Essex, England
Gender: Female
Father's Name: Isaack Keely
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
It would make my Mary a trifle brazen, to have a child baptised in London on the 4th, and marrying Edward on the 12th of the same month in Shrewsbury!
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