Can anyone find this man?

[crawfie]

After 4 years searching, i have finally managed to break down a brick wall and find my great-aunt's marriage. The certificate arrived today, and whereas all her details are correct, I can't find her hubby on any census.

He is (according to cert dated 5/8/1918) - James Barnes, age 27, so giving dob approx 1890-1891, living at 18 Lyndhurst Road, Nottingham, father James Barnes (deceased) Undertaker.

I've searched through all the James Barnes in Nottingham, and none of them match, I checked the 1911 for 18 Lyndhurst St and it is a different family. I found a James Barnes in the 1911 who was an undertaker, but all his 6 children were still at home, and none of them called James.

Can anyone find him?

Thanks

Linda

[Merry]

I don't suppose the marriage witnesses help at all?

I guess you don't know when or where james died?

[kiterunner]

I found a James Barnes in the 1911 who was an undertaker, but all his 6 children were still at home, and none of them called James.



If it says 6 children born, 6 living, and there are 6 children there, it doesn't necessarily mean that he only had 6 children altogether, because the number wouldn't include any children born before the current marriage.

[kiterunner]

What is James jnr's occupation on the marriage cert, please?

[crawfie]

If it says 6 children born, 6 living, and there are 6 children there, it doesn't necessarily mean that he only had 6 children altogether, because the number wouldn't include any children born before the current marriage.

Yes, but unfortunately in this case the marriage was before James was born.

James is a shop assistant at marriage. The witnesses were the bride's sister and a G Patchett (or Palchett or Pritchett, not terribly clear) presumably the best man.

I think James died in Nottingham - his wife died there in 1987 aged 91.

Linda

[Phoenix]

If he married in 1918, was he in the army? Is there anything on Ancestry for him? Ideally, with addresses, and next of kin father crossed out & wife's details put in:D

[crawfie]

That would have been wonderful, but I haven't managed to find any military records for him.

[Kit]

Just becasue he lived in Nottingham doesn't mean he was born there.

The names on the census may not be the first names either, they could be what they were known as or a nickname and he married in his real name.

[kiterunner]

The 6 children are all girls except for one, though, and he is Sydney who is age 23 in 1911 occupation cabinet maker, and he is just Sidney Barnes on his birth reg.

[Kit]

ok worth a try, I haddn't looked at the census.

Mind you with my family that wouldn't mean a thing.

[crawfie]

Thanks for all your replies - I have tried looking for a James Barnes, father James in all counties, in 1891, 1901 and 1911 but none of them fit exactly. Might have to wait till the 1921 comes out to find out his place of birth! :D

[Merry]

Am I correct in thinking James didn't have any children?

Is there a reason I can't find a birth registration to fit his wife (going from her dob reported at death).

Did his wife come from the Nottingham area?

[Merry]

Ah, found the answer to the above problems now. So, she was from Oxford?

[kiterunner]

I've been to Nottinghamshire Archives and looked at electoral registers and street directories, but don't think any of this is likely to help:

1912 Kelly's Directory - no James Barnes listed in Nottingham, no Barnes listed in the Undertakers section, no number 18 Lyndhurst Road.

1915 Electoral Register - 18 Lyndhurst Road: Chambers Edwin Jas

1916 Kelly's Directory - 18 Lyndhurst Road: Woodward, Ernest, dairyman
11 Scotholme Avenue: Barnes, James (no occupation listed)

1918 Electoral register - Trent Ward is missing from the main listing but the Absent Voters' listing is available and there is no Barnes listed in that ward.

1919 Spring electoral register - 18 Lyndhurst Road: Wood, Fred. Nobody listed at the address in the Absent Voters' List.

1919 Autumn electoral register - 18 Lyndhurst Road: Wood, Fred.

1920 Wright's Directory - 18 Lyndhurst Road: Wood Frederick, lace maker.
And from the alphabetical section:
Barnes James, 82 Burford road
Barnes James, boot & shoe repairer, 27 Blue Bell Hill Rd.

[Merry]

Is that her sister, Charlotte Jennie, living in Nottingham in 1911? (as they were not together in 1901 I wasn't sure)

EDIT: worked out that is her sister! lol

[Merry]

Barnes James, 82 Burford road


This is the man who has a son James the right age (same address as 1911), but whilst I can imagine someone being an undertaker as a second job, he isn't dead in 1918!

[Merry]

I don't know if this can really be significant as it's such a long time before 1918, but in 1911 Charlotte was at 142 Sneinton Dale, Nottingham which is only about 300 yards from 18 Lyndhurst Road, Nottingham.

[kiterunner]

It's a pretty densely populated area around there.

[crawfie]

Wow, Kite and Merry you have been busy, yes Charlotte Jennie was her sister (and my Grandmother) and she was married by 1918, but I'm not sure if she was in Nottingham or Oxford in 1918. You won't find Kate in the 1911 as she was in the States then, and on the 1901 Kate was with her grandparents. Charlotte's husband was from Sneinton in Nottingham originally, but in 1918 was in the army somewhere. I think James has stretched the truth a little so it may not be possible to find out exactly where he was from at the moment. There are a couple of James Barnes deaths that fit, will have to see whether I can sort out which one is his.

Thanks so much for your help, and for checking things at the archive. If he was living at Lyndhurst road, it was obviously only for a short time. I do wonder if there is some connection between James and my Grandfather as he worked in a shop in Sneinton before the war, but as his surname was Brown it gets very difficult to track down.

Thanks again for all you have managed to find.

[kiterunner]

We should have a look at this guy from the 1891 census, just in case:
93 High Street, Brentford, Middlesex
James Barnes Head Widr 59 Undertaker Hampshire Milford
Mary Filkins Serv S 32 General Servant Middlesex Brentford.

[kiterunner]

He is still at the same address in 1901, still with servant Mary, no children there.

[crawfie]

I very much appreciate your help Kite - do you often go to the archives as I have another of my relatives in Nottingham who I am having trouble with - sorry for being so cheeky. I am trying to find his marriage but not having much luck!

[kiterunner]

Yes, I go fairly often. Give me the details and I'll see if I can come up with anything.

[Margaret in Burton]

Nothing to do with this research but I thought that address of Lyndhurst Rd, Nottingham sounded familiar.

My GG Grandmother Mary Barks nee Pratt died at 16 Lyndhurst Rd in 1918. It was the home of her son in law John Henry James Denton and her daughter Catherine.
JHJ Denton also lived there in 1906 when he married Catherine.

As I said no help at all but a coincidence. :):):)

[kiterunner]

1881, still at 93 High Street, Brentford:
James Barnes Head Mar 49 Builder & Undertaker Hants Lymington
Frances Do Wife Mar 50 Do
Alice Towe(?) Serv Unm 18 General Domestic Servant Middlx Brentford.

Possible death for Frances in 1890 but age is 67.

Not found this James on pre-1881 censuses yet.

But I can't find a James born in Brentford to be your James, so it's looking unlikely that this James is his father.

[kiterunner]

Nothing to do with this research but I thought that address of Lyndhurst Rd, Nottingham sounded familiar.

My GG Grandmother Mary Barks nee Pratt died at 16 Lyndhurst Rd in 1918. It was the home of her son in law John Henry James Denton and her daughter Catherine.
JHJ Denton also lived there in 1906 when he married Catherine.

As I said no help at all but a coincidence.

If only you'd said before, I would have copied down the e roll entries for number 16!

[crawfie]

Thanks. In 1911 Frank Brown and his wife Lizzie are living at 6 Wilfred Terrace, Bridlington Street, Nottingham. (Ancestry has transcribed them as Frnak and Liggie!) They have been married 1 year and have no children. Frank is 28 and a house painter, Lizzie is 33, no profession. I have not been able to trace their marriage, and wondered if on the Electoral Rolls Lizzie is down as possibly Eliza or Elizabeth, which might help in narrowing down my search. Unfortunately on the census the column for place of birth has not been completed. It's a bit of a long shot, so if it's not easy to find don't waste your time on it. Frank was christened Frank, no second name by the way.

Many thanks in advance

[kiterunner]

Lizzie won't be on the electoral roll until a few years after that, though. Do you know if they stayed at the same address for a while?

[crawfie]

Not the foggiest - they could have ended up anywhere in the world knowing my lot!

[Phoenix]

In an earlier age, Merry would have been burnt at the stake for her uncanny powers of ferreting out the impossible. And I'm still trying to work out how she knows Charlotte & James Barnes' wife are sisters:confused:

[Margaret in Burton]

If only you'd said before, I would have copied down the e roll entries for number 16!

I only noticed the thread today and bells started ringing. lol :D:D

[Merry]

In an earlier age, Merry would have been burnt at the stake for her uncanny powers of ferreting out the impossible. And I'm still trying to work out how she knows Charlotte & James Barnes' wife are sisters:confused:

pmsl Phoenix!

Once I'd worked out that Kate's surname was mis-spelled at her marriage to James I could then find her on the census. In 1901 Charlotte is with her parents and Kate is with her maternal grandparents, thus giving me the maiden name of their mother. A quick search of the marriage index showed the right father and mother marrying. I supose they could have been cousins if two brothers had married two sisters!!

I guess I'd be one of those who drowned, thereby proving I'm no witch!

[kiterunner]

Thanks. In 1911 Frank Brown and his wife Lizzie are living at 6 Wilfred Terrace, Bridlington Street, Nottingham. (Ancestry has transcribed them as Frnak and Liggie!) They have been married 1 year and have no children. Frank is 28 and a house painter, Lizzie is 33, no profession. I have not been able to trace their marriage, and wondered if on the Electoral Rolls Lizzie is down as possibly Eliza or Elizabeth, which might help in narrowing down my search. Unfortunately on the census the column for place of birth has not been completed. It's a bit of a long shot, so if it's not easy to find don't waste your time on it. Frank was christened Frank, no second name by the way.

Many thanks in advance

Didn't really find anything to help with this, I'm sorry to say.
1911 electoral register - no Browns listed at Wilfred Terrace.
1912 - Brown, Frank - 6 Wilfred Terrace.
1913 - nobody listed at 6 Wilfred Terrace, but I noticed there is a Frank Brown at 1 Brown Street, which is just off Bridlington St. Looked back at 1912 and there was a Robert Saywell at that address then, so it could well be the same Frank having moved house.
1915 - there is a John Charles Blower at 6 Wilfred Terrace and Frank Brown still at 1 Brown Street.
1918 - a couple called Robert and Emma Whiteley are at 1 Brown Street. I looked through all of Sherwood Ward Absent Voters' Roll but no Frank Brown listed.

Then I had a look at the street directories and there is a Frank Brown, painter and decorator, listed at 377 Alfreton Road in 1920 and 1922, but I didn't have time to look at the electoral register for that address as I had to bring lunch home for my son! I shall have a look at that another time.

[crawfie]

Thanks a lot for your help in this - it sounds like he is still in Nottingham, so it gives me a bit more to search on.

Linda

[kiterunner]

Okay, 1918 and 1922 e rolls for 377 Alfreton Road - Brown, Frank and Brown, Lizzie.
1925 and 1928 Kelly's Directories - Frank Brown, painter and decorator at 377 Alfreton Rd.
1932 he has been replaced by Widdowson, Arth, also a painter and decorator. No Frank Brown, painter, in the alphabetical listing.

But then 1936 Kelly's has Brown, Frank, painter, 23 Talbot St.

Looking at the 1935/6 electoral roll for 23 Talbot St (in the city centre) it lists Brown, Frank and Brown, Elizabeth.

The Talbot Street page is missing from the Notts Archives copy of the 1941 Kelly's but there is no entry for Frank Brown of Talbot St in the alphabetical listing. There are a few Frank Browns with no occupation shown at various addresses. Then there are no more directories for decades so I had to leave it there.

Anyway, it could mean that Lizzie's real name was Elizabeth, but I suppose it could also be that she had died or they had split up by 1935 and he had married again or they had a grown-up daughter called Elizabeth. Just muddies the waters really!

[crawfie]

Mmm, I see what you mean, lots of possibilities. If it were a daughter Elizabeth in 1935, then she would have had to have been born between 1911 and 1914 wouldn't she. That gives me new search parameters.

Thank you so much for all you have done, you're a real star!

Linda