MMF George Spence - which one, where? [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

Janet

07-05-12, 06:42

MMF George Spence

I've had to reject a couple of inappropriate choices so far for the early George Spence who was born, gosh darn it, before civil registration. Can anybody help point me in the direction of a better fit?

I'm going to order the death cert., I guess, although I don't think it's going to tell me a lot about his origins, is it?

Name - George Spence

Date and place of birth - 1829, 1830, or 1831, place unknown
IGI has an extracted record for a George Spence christened 25 NOV 1829, Knaresborough, Yorkshire, England, with father William Spence and mother Ann. Could be him, but I really don't know.

Names of parents - William Spence (from two marriage cert.'s) and unknown

Date and place of baptism - unknown

Details of each of his or her marriages -

1 Apr 1850 at York RO to Jane Gardner/Gardener b. 1831 Coxwold, Yorks., d. Apr. 1871 Bramley, Yorks.
George is age 20, Bachelor, Profession Groom, Residence South Prospect Street, the Mount, York.
Father William Spence, Labourer.
Jane is age 19, Spinster, Profession Servant, Residence Saint Saviourgate, York.
Her father Thomas Gardner, Labourer.
George makes his mark, Jane signs.
witnesses Charlotte Burley and Andrew Burley. Both sign.
Children:
Ann Elizabeth 1862
Louisa 1864
Kate 1868 (d? Jan. 1874)
Sarah Jane (Sallie) 1869

3 Apr 1872 at Parish Church, Leeds, by Banns to Elizabeth Crampton late Wilson (my ggrandmother) b. 13 Jun 1838 Meanwood, Yorks., d. Sep Qtr 1899 Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorks.
George is age 42, Widower, Profession Coachman, Residence Headingley.
Father William Spence, Waggoner.
Elizabeth is age 34, Widow, Profession [blank], Residence Headingley.
Her father David Crampton, Mason.
This time George signs and Elizabeth signs.
Witnesses James Moore and Jane Moore. Both sign.
Children:
Mary Ann bap. 10 Aug 1873 Headingley, d. Sep Qtr 1874 Headingley
Elizabeth (Lily; my gmother) b. 3 Feb. 1875 Headingley, Leeds, Yorks., d. 29 Apr. 1953 Niagara County, New York
Ethel May b. 21 May 1877 Headingley, Leeds, Yorks., d. 3 Aug. 1935 York, Ontario, Canada

Occupation(s) - if any
1850 marriage - Groom
1851 - Groom
1861 - Coachman
1871 - Labourer
1872 marriage - Coachman
1881 - Coachman (Unemployed)
1891 - General Labourer

Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
1850 marriage - South Prospect Street, the Mount, York
1851 - 36 Dringhouses Manor Cottages (born "Stainfordbridge, Yorkshire, England" per Ancestry; could be Stamford Bridge?)
1861 - Elmet Hall, Roundhay, Leeds, home of Mayor James Kitson (born "Branton" per Ancestry; possibly Brearton, in Knaresborough RD as on 1891)
1871 - 6 Stanley St., Wortley, Holbeck, Leeds (born "Knaresboro'")
1872 marriage - Headingley, Leeds, Yorks.
1881 - 8 Chapel Square, Headingley, Leeds (born "Knaresbro', Yorkshire, England")
1891 - 83 High Malsis, Sutton-in-Craven, Keighley RD (born "Brearton, Yorks.")

On Ancestry:
1851
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=YRKHO107_2354_2355-0231&fn=George&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=10902776
1861
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=WRYRG9_3391_3393-0384&fn=George&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=10554197
1871
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=WRYRG10_4533_4537-0297&fn=George&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=26234534
1881
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=george&gsln=spence&msbdy=1830&msrpn__ftp=Headingley&uidh=9uh&pcat=1881UKI&h=24941459&db=uki1881&indiv=1
1891
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=view&r=an&dbid=6598&iid=WRYRG12_3534_3536-0622&fn=George&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=pt_t9906426_p-724807925_kpidz0q3d-724807925z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid&pid=4705222

Date, place and cause of death - 13 Feb 1900, 5 Chapel Street, Headingley, Leeds, cancer of rectum
J.H. Saunders, Son in Law, present at death

Date and place of burial. - unknown

Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable - unknown

Memorial inscription - if any - unknown

===============================================

The problem is the 1841. Where is George? Is he with the family of his father William Spence? And which William Spence where?

We've eliminated the Bramley ones (even though Jane died there) because that William is a hand loom weaver, and that George Spence stays there and appears in later censuses.

Our George keeps saying he was born in Knaresborough, or Brearton which is a parish in Knaresborough RD. He hooks up with Jane who is from Coxwold, and they are both residing in York and get married there in 1850. I think "Stainfordbridge" on the 1851 may mean Stamford Bridge, on the east side of York. So those places are the general direction I would like to look for George's early life.

Am I wrong to be attracted to this one here in 1841 with father William Spence labourer on Queen Street in York?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=WRYHO107_1352_1354-0158&fn=George&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=14997367

Do I have a whole slew of children missing from his first marriage, by the way? The ones I am currently aware of start in 1862. But on the 1851 and 1861 census George and Jane have no kids with them. :confused:

Also, does anybody see any other children from the second marriage?

There are some quite old threads for George Spence that I need to delete or clean up. I don't think they're useful to direct anyone to.

Sorry if I'm unresponsive. I''m posting this and going to bed!!! Back tomorrow. :)

kiterunner

07-05-12, 09:06

Although his birthplace on the 1851 census is transcribed as Stainfordbridge on ancestry, it actually says Stamford Bridge.

Merry

07-05-12, 09:12

And Stamford Bridge is quite a way from Knaresborough.

Merry

07-05-12, 09:25

I know it all appears to fit together well, but should you be getting one of the birth certs for the first group of children to confirm you have the right first marriage?

kiterunner

07-05-12, 09:40

Louisa's birth certificate is shown on a public family tree on ancestry and it does have mother's name as Jane Spence, formerly Gardner.

Merry

07-05-12, 10:08

Oooh, that saves some money!

Very interestng that in 1871 their eldest child was 9. It seems unlikely there were no other surviving children from before that. Have you looked at children not living with their parents in 1861? Have you traced the know children forward in case they have other relatives with them on any census?

kiterunner

07-05-12, 10:10

If you can get a look at or full transcription of the 1829 Knaresborough baptism, it should give you the father's occupation and maybe a more specific residence than just Knaresborough - maybe it will say Brearton, which would help!

This looks like the William and Ann from that 1841 census in 1851 at New York Street, York:
William Spence Head Mar 47 Labourer Yorks Linton on Ouse
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 48 Do Warthill
Jesse Do Son U 19 Labourer York
William Do Son U 14 Scholar York
Elizabeth Do Daur 13 Scholar York

I haven't managed to find Jesse in 1841 yet.

kiterunner

07-05-12, 10:14

That public tree on ancestry has a lot of info in it. It says that George was a witness at his father's second marriage, 14 Oct 1860, Leeds. But it doesn't say who his father was. I wonder if they're sure it was his father's second marriage and not third. Anyway, I'll see if I can figure out what marriage they mean.

kiterunner

07-05-12, 10:19

Okay, looks as though they're talking about the Bramley family who have their George still with them in 1851, so that marriage witness bit is probably a red herring, sorry.

anne fraser

07-05-12, 11:39

There is a William and Grace Spence at Stamford Bridge in 1841 old enough to be his parents. Caton district also reference to a John Spence farmer.

Janet

07-05-12, 13:57

Aha! Thank you, everyone. Lots of very interesting leads. Now, where to start? I'll be back!

Merry

07-05-12, 14:52

The signature for George Spence when he married Elizabeth Wilson in 1872 looks a lot like the witness signature for a George Spence at the marriage of 28-year-old Elizabeth Spence to John Boynton in 1871 (her father is recorded as William Spence, labourer).

compare......

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=40361_249424-01952&fn=George&ln=Spence&st=d&ssrc=&pid=22135357

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=40361_249424-01837&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Spence&st=d&ssrc=&pid=44288603

Of course it may not be the same person, but a possibility?

kiterunner

07-05-12, 15:00

Oh yes, they do look very similar!

Merry

07-05-12, 15:00

Merry

07-05-12, 15:18

Hmmmm.... two to choose from:

1843 Q4 SPENCE Elizabeth Bootham York BOO/5/35
1844 Q1 SPENCE Elizabeth Bootham York BOO/5/51

No luck with a baptism at the moment.

Merry

07-05-12, 16:01

Hmmm......there is this Elizabeth who would appear to be illegitimate:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=YRKHO107_2353_2354-0130&fn=Mary+A&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=10890432

But there were two births, so she might be the 'other' Elizabeth.

Janet

07-05-12, 16:21

Mrs Boynton was 38 b York in 1881.

I can see her as a servant in 1871 and 1861 (b 1842/3 York), but I can't see her in 1851!! She isn't the daughter of the family Kate posted earlier as I saw her separately in 1861 (and they are not the same age, despite the same birthplace)

Sorry, struggling to keep up with you speed readers! So we have two possible candidates for George's sister. We're pretty sure it's his sister because his signature looks almost identical on his and her respective marriage certs. But we don't know which Elizabeth Spence from Bootham is the right one.

I see that Bootham is a neighborhood of York. By Google's reckoning, Bootham Street is about a 15-minute walk from Queen Street where there is a George Spence age 12 in 1851 with the family of William Spence. Or could Queen Street actually be included in what is considered Bootham?

The William Spence on Queen Street in the 1851 says he is born Linton-on-Ouse; and Helen Spence, the mother of a possibly illegitimate Elizabeth in the link Merry just gave us, is also born Linton-on-Ouse (mistranscribed by Ancestry as Linton-on-Crise or some such).

I'm afraid I'm not following you, Merry, about her not being the daughter of the family Kate posted. You mean the one in post #7? Oh, I think I'm getting it. You see two Elizabeth Spences in 1861; one is still with that same family and the other one is elsewhere?

Merry

07-05-12, 16:36

The William Spence on Queen Street in the 1851 says he is born Linton-on-Ouse; and Helen Spence, the mother of a possibly illegitimate Elizabeth in the link Merry just gave us, is also born Linton-on-Ouse (mistranscribed by Ancestry as Linton-on-Crise or some such).

Yes, I just this second realised that and was about to post, but you beat me to it!! lol

I'm afraid I'm not following you, Merry, about her not being the daughter of the family Kate posted. You mean the one in post #7? Oh, I think I'm getting it. You see two Elizabeth Spences in 1861; one is still with that same family and the other one is elsewhere?

That's exactly right!! One is here in 1851 and still with the same parents in 1861

William Spence Head Mar 47 Labourer Yorks Linton on Ouse
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 48 Do Warthill
Jesse Do Son U 19 Labourer York
William Do Son U 14 Scholar York
Elizabeth Do Daur 13 Scholar York

and the other is a servant somewhere, b 1843/4 which is the right age for the 1871 bride. (sorry, didn't take notes, but she was easy to find!)

Could Ellen/Helen (b 1816) be the sister of the William above and George be the son of the William above? Then Elizabeth uses the name Wm for her father when she marries because she doesn't want to appear illegitimate?

I can force them to fit!! :D:D:D

Merry

07-05-12, 16:48

Ah,....

LINTON ON OUSE, in the parish of Newton upon Ouse, and wapentake of Bulmer; 1 mile WNW. of Newton upon Ouse, 7 miles S. of Easingwold. Here is a Roman Catholic chapel, and a school with a small endowment. Population, 268

Merry

07-05-12, 16:53

Name: William Spence
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 06 Apr 1805
Baptism/Christening Place: NEWTON UPON OUSE,YORK,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: William Spence
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Margaret

Can't find Ellen though.

Merry

07-05-12, 16:56

.....unless this is her?

Name: Helen Spencer
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 04 Jan 1816
Baptism/Christening Place: NEWTON UPON OUSE,YORK,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: James Spencer
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Catharine

making her NOT William's sister! lol

Merry

07-05-12, 17:16

Her first-born named for her father? (she had a Catherine (for her mother?) in 1849)

Name: James Spence
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 14 Apr 1837
Baptism/Christening Place: NEWTON UPON OUSE,YORK,ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Ellen Spence

You may have guessed, I have no idea where I'm going with this and have to vanish shortly!! lol

Janet

07-05-12, 17:30

I'm just hanging onto the sides of the roller coaster, Merry! When you have to leave I'll take a deep breath and go take my shower. :d:d:d

Merry

07-05-12, 17:36

lol Janet! I have gone! Back later.....

Merry

07-05-12, 17:49

So, going back the start....

We have this:

IGI has an extracted record for a George Spence christened 25 NOV 1829, Knaresborough, Yorkshire, England, with father William Spence and mother Ann. Could be him, but I really don't know.

and we have a family headed by Wm and Elizabeth in 1841/51. So, we need Wm to have a remarriage between 1829 and 1841.

Merry

07-05-12, 19:00

Hmmmmm....problem?

We have this:

IGI has an extracted record for a George Spence christened 25 NOV 1829, Knaresborough, Yorkshire, England, with father William Spence and mother Ann.

but there is also this one:

Name: Robert Spence
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 04 Apr 1830
Baptism/Christening Place: KNARESBOROUGH,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Spence
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Anne

and these two COULD belong to this family:

Briggate, Knaresborough

William Spence 40 Butcher Yes
Ann Spence 40 Yes
Maria Spence 20 Yes
Wm Spence 15 Yes
Robert Spence 11 Yes
Ann Spence 6 Yes
Jane Spence 11 Mo Yes

Which would mean we don't have the right bap for George. (maybe.....)

Janet

07-05-12, 19:16

Entirely possible! I was worried about that. ;(

As if we didn't have enough red herrings yet, I've just remembered the Mary Spense who is 2 doors down from the Gardener family in Coxwold in 1841:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=ERYHO107_1234_1237-0205&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Gardener&st=r&ssrc=&pid=11773090

Lunch is being prepared for me and I have to go try to calm down sufficiently to eat it! Back shortly.

EDIT: Never mind! That Mary Spense doesn't look likely, and anyway I've just realized that George probably met Jane in York, not in Coxwold.

Merry

07-05-12, 20:12

At his second marriage George said his father was a waggoner. At W's last census appearance he was a carter, so similar. He was dead by 1871 though, which isn't mentioned if he is the right Wm for George's cert. I think Wm and Elizabeth both died in the late 1860s in York District (after the ages kick in on the index.)

Uncle John

07-05-12, 20:23

I know it's not terribly relevant at this stage of the thread, but Bootham Bar is one of the ancient town gates in the York city walls.

Merry

07-05-12, 21:04

Also irrelevant.....

Some of my relatives were students or teachers at Bootham (Quaker) School in York, which I guess is also in this district of the town?

Janet

07-05-12, 22:28

All very interesting, thank you, Uncle John. And needless to say, thank you, Merry, for that tidbit and all the rest!

Thank you for the Stamford Bridge family, Anne. That William is a butcher, and I know there is a whole family of Spences who are butchers. I had a brief exchange with a woman researching them, and at that time we didn't really think they were any of mine but I wonder if there could be a Stamford Bridge connection after all.

So indeed, Merry, why does George say on the 1851 that he was born in Stamford Bridge? It's 22 miles east of Knaresborough. He's a young man, recently married, he's got a job as groom in the household of Jane B. Wilkinson. He doesn't want to be associated with his own immediate family of labourers, and the butchers look better to his employer?

In 1861 they had moved on to service in the Kitson household, still childless. (?!?) But curiously, they are again next door to some Wilkinsons. Joseph B. Wilkinson is at 75 Little Woodhouse and James Kitson is at 76 Little Woodhouse.

And mustn't neglect to thank Kite for looking, and especially for verifying Merry's really exciting find of George's signature on another marriage cert.

Being called for dinner! Bedtime for you guys. Back later.

Janet

08-05-12, 03:22

Okay, looks as though they're talking about the Bramley family who have their George still with them in 1851, so that marriage witness bit is probably a red herring, sorry.

I'm glad you saw that, Kite, because now that I see what you're looking at, I think that's my cousin's tree and that's another thing I'll have to mention to him if he doesn't figure it out himself now that he's agreed that the George in Bramley is not ours.

Janet

08-05-12, 04:35

By the way, one of my first glimpses of George Spence and wife Jane Gardner came by Googling their names together, which brought up this interesting monograph:
http://fretwell.kangaweb.com.au/pdfs/Ann%20Newton.pdf
They're on page 2, in the 1861 census list. A fresh look at it hasn't given me any spectacular new insights, though.

Merry

08-05-12, 06:29

Did you read about the trial involving Arthur Octavius Kitson? What a scandal! (sorry, I was distracted!!)

Janet

08-05-12, 14:17

Well, well, well. :rolleyes:

For those who may be bored or titillated, the story is here:
http://fretwell.kangaweb.com.au/pdfs/Arthur%20Octavius%20Kitson.pdf

Now, this is not finding me my George Spence's origins yet, but that's very interesting and it spurred me on to run a search of

Spence site:fretwell.kangaweb.com.au

And in there I find a whole lot of Spence family connections explained. I recognize some of them from trawling Ancestry. There might not be a single Spence in there related to me, but it might help at least in eliminating things.

Other than that, last night I was playing with this, trying to get a hint where to look for likely Spences:

Where was George's first marriage? at the RO in York
Where was his sister[?] Elizabeth's marriage? Parish church in the parish of Leeds
Where did he baptize his kids?
Ann Elizabeth 5 Jan 1862 St George, Leeds residence Hyde Terrace coachman
Louisa 15 May 1864 St George, Leeds residence 11 Hyde Terrace servant
Kate 1867 perhaps Chapeltown or Hunslet?? or not baptized?
Sarah Jane b. 29 Aug 1869 bap 17 Apr 1870 Buslingthorpe [=Leeds St Michael, Woodhouse Carr] residence Woods' Buildings coachman
Where did John and Elizabeth Boynton baptize their kids?
Have to look. EDIT: She went to West Hartlepool with her husband.

I'll probably be dragged out of here by my ear shortly.

Oh, and then there are these notes I made to myself a while ago.

In 1871 census (conducted on 2 April) they now had Ann 9, Louisa 7, Kate 3 and Sarah Jane 1 (our Sallie).
Sometime soon after that Jane died, registered in Apr-May-Jun 1871.

I don't know what ever happened to Ann, Louisa and Kate.

Possible Ann on 1881, age 15 in York:
Class: RG11; Piece: 4725; Folio: 20; Page: 3; GSU roll: 1342142.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=ERYRG11_4723_4727-0554&fn=Ann+E.&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=25962087

Possible Louisa on 1901, age 36 in Harrogate:
Class: RG13; Piece: 4052; Folio: 8; Page: 6.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=YRKRG13_4050_4053-0525&fn=Louisa&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=25808277

Possible Louisa death, age 75, in Leeds:
Louisa Spence Jan-Feb-Mar 1940 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding 9b 579
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7579&iid=ons_d19401az-1359&fn=Louisa&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=28575199

Possible Kate birth:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8912&iid=ONS_B18684AZ-0223&fn=Kate+Louisa&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=51989578
Kate Louisa Spence Jul-Aug-Sep 1868 Leeds Yorkshire - West Riding 9b 413

Possible Kate death from an Ancestry tree:
died Jan. 1874 Age: 6
Kate Spence abt 1868 Jan-Feb-Mar 1874 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding 9b 391

EDIT: Hang on, we've got some Wilkinsons next door again. This time they're next door to where Ann is boarding in York in 1881. And William Wilkinson is a General Carter. Dunno. Could be a school of red herrings just swimming by.

Merry

08-05-12, 14:27

Where was George's first marriage? at the RO in York

I thought that was quite unusual - for a first marriage to be at a RO. Might be because one or both of them was non-conformist, but that would be quite unusual amongst the servant classes as it might restrict your employment.

Where was his sister[?] Elizabeth's marriage? Headingley

I'm not at all convinced she is G's sister! I'l stick with "relation" lol!

Was her marriage at Headingley? I thought it was at the parish church in Leeds - the same place at George married the second time. Certainly the same person had written out the marriage cert and it was the same person conducting the marriage as well.

Janet

08-05-12, 14:35

Ooops, sorry, you're so right. Parish church in the parish of Leeds. I got myself confused with her residence. I've changed it.

Merry

08-05-12, 18:36

Re the children of Wm and Elizabeth.....these are the people I was looking for....

George abt 1828
Jesse abt 1831 York
William abt 1836 York
Elizabeth abt 1837 York

But this was all I could find.....

Births Mar 1838
SPENCE Elizabeth York 23 610

and

Name: Elizabeth Spence
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 31 Dec 1837
Baptism/Christening Place: ALL SAINTS NORTH STREET,YORK,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Spence
Mother's Name: Elizabeth

I tried looking for the others without the mother's name in case they had a different mother, but other than the Knaresborough bap in your initial post I couldn't see anything helpful.

I do wonder if Jesse was a figment of the enumerator's imagination? There's no marriage or death for a Jesse Spence.

Merry

08-05-12, 21:27

Didn't know if you had seen this, Janet?

The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), Tuesday, November 16, 1869

GARDNER - Nov. 14th, at the house of her son-in-law, George Spence, aged 70, Elizabeth, relict of Thos. Gardner, of Coxwold.

Janet

08-05-12, 21:50

Wahoo! Thanks, Merry. That can only help.

Merry

08-05-12, 22:10

I had hoped for a notice with more information!

The York Herald, and General Advertiser (York, England), Saturday, April 06, 1850

Same day (Monday, 1st inst.), at the Registrar's office, York, Mr. George Spence, groom, to Miss Gardner, both of this city.

Janet

08-05-12, 22:27

Wow, you're on a tear, Merry! :D

I've been hunting Jesse too, can't find anything. ;( But I can't make it read as anything but Jesse, can you?

Janet

09-05-12, 00:42

Oh gees. Sounds more like a temper tantrum than attempted suicide to me! :eek::o:d

Think I have to claim him. I know there are a lot of George Spences, but mine was on the 1881 census at 8 Chapel Square in Headingley. It has to be great-grandad.

So he was actually working at Aireside Foundry when it was reported to the census enumerator that he was an unemployed coachman. I'm beginning to suspect he did a lot of creative tale-telling. How will I ever find his tracks? ;(

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CZRP1uuiWa4/T6m7gLwr6FI/AAAAAAAAAxE/I30mGN8YU8A/s640/George+Spence+tantrum.jpg

Oh, yeah, it's him. She went and got him.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wdOFeKqGU4w/T6nGZDOU4II/AAAAAAAAAxQ/tw_FryUA_Es/s1600/George+Spence+tantrum2.jpg

Janet

09-05-12, 05:24

Was Elizabeth Spence (the future Mrs Boynton) mistranscribed as Spencer? Or maybe even the enumerator got it wrong. If she was born about 1842, though, she should be 9 or 10, not 14. Could she be shaving something off her age later on, and could this be the real story, i.e., born about 1837, possibly before civil registration?

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=YRKHO107_2353_2354-0401&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Spencer&st=r&ssrc=&pid=10894867

There is this one:
Births Mar 1838
SPENCE Elizabeth York 23 610

Alternatively, could she be tacking on a few years to make herself older for work? If (big if...) this were the right Elizabeth, then she should turn up on the 1841, 3 years old, but I can't find her.

Tell me where I'm going wrong! :d Got to go to bed. Back in a good few hours.

Merry

09-05-12, 05:51

Well done for finding those newspaper articles. I'm embarrassed to say I saw the frst one, but dismissed it because of the occupation without checking the address he was at in 1881 :o

I'm a bit confused by your last post. We know there are two Elizabeth Spences (and three birth regs!)

The 1851 shows both of them.....

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=YRKHO107_2353_2354-0551&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=10897367

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=YRKHO107_2353_2354-0130&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=10890433

They both appear in 1861 (first one with parents again and the second as a servant.)

I haven't been able to find both of them in 1871....only the one who would seem to be the younger and marries soon after. Ah, I see - you are thinking this is when her age became reduced (if she is the older one and likely George's sister) and the other one was either dead or married before 1871?

Janet

09-05-12, 06:20

It's probably not you I'm confusing so much as myself, Merry! I'm on my last legs here and have caught myself snoozing lightly at the keyboard, so I might have to leave you to figure out what the heck I'm talking about until I wake up in the morning! :o

I've only just seen that I'm going back over ground that you already covered. You had already posted that 1838 registration.

Janet

09-05-12, 08:23

I'm sorry, Merry! Of course I'm sitting up trying to figure out something sensible and I can't! lol

But just to reiterate what I guess I thought you were saying: A while ago you seemed to say you had found Mrs Boynton on the 1871 and the 1861, you just couldn't find her on the 1851.

I guess I thought you meant this one with a Waude family in 1871:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=WRYRG10_4288_4291-0131&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=25421698
and this one with a Briggs family in 1861:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=ERYRG9_3546_3549-0045&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=11788722

Am I following you or have I completely lost the plot?

I really truly am going to bed now. :o

Merry

09-05-12, 12:07

Yes, that's right and I did say I couldn't find her in 1851 (I could only find the dau of Wm and Eliz with her parents). However, I did find an appropriately aged Elizabeth in 1851 eventually

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=YRKHO107_2353_2354-0130&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Spence&st=r&ssrc=&pid=10890433

with her unmarried mother, Helen (Ellen). The reason I didn't find her the first time is that Ancestry have transcribed her place of birth as Yorkshire, but the census page says York, Yorkshire and I was searching for York only!!

Helen/Ellen came from the same small place Wm (who we are lining up to be George's father) did. I guess regardless of whether the marriage for Elizabeth Spence to John Boynton is George's sister, or some sort of cousin or whatever, I do think it quite likely we are associating George with the right William Spence. It's just proving it that seems tricky.

kiterunner

09-05-12, 12:40

I still think that getting a full transcription or image of that George Spence baptism would be a good idea.

Merry

09-05-12, 12:41

True. It would be nice if they had accidentally transcribed the word Ann where it actually says Elizabeth though!!

Merry

09-05-12, 16:36

At least if the 1829 bap says father's occ "butcher" we can be fairly certain the bap belongs to a child from that "other" family and may possibly have died before 1841.

Janet

09-05-12, 16:49

Okay, I do agree, I just don't know how to proceed. If it comes from IGI, that means it would be available at an LDS center? And what does that mean, either a road trip or hiring someone?

Merry

09-05-12, 17:21

The PRs are at the North Yorkshire County Record Office, so I don't know if anyone lives near Northallerton? :)

Otherwise I guess it would be an LDS family history centre near you?

Uncle John

09-05-12, 18:45

Where was George's first marriage? at the RO in York

Just skimming through the thread so this might have been picked up already. Could have been a chapel wedding, Registrar Attended (because the chaurch and/or celebrant wasn't licensed for marriages). The RO would know because these are recorded in a "travelling" register.

EDIT (a few minutes later): I think Merry found it was a RO marriage.

Janet

09-05-12, 20:10

Thank you UJ, Kite and Merry, and thanks again, Anne. I'm going to pursue that baptism.

Merry

09-05-12, 22:17

Up until now I had thought Elizabeth Spence who married John Boynton was the daughter of Ellen/Helen Spence because her age and birthplace matched. However, I now know that is not the case....

It's a bit sad but in The York Herald (York, England), Saturday, December 15, 1860 it says that a girl of about 15 years of age named Elizabeth Spence, the dau of a single woman, Ellen Spence, of Hungate was drowned in the river on her way home from waiting on a local lady. (that's not a transcript - You will find it OK)

The Ellen Spence we have as mum of Elizabeth b 1843ish was living at Hungate on the 1861 census.

So, are we back to Mrs Boynton being the child of William and Elizabeth Spence, b 1838? (and maybe with a brother or half brother called George??!)

borobabs

09-05-12, 22:24

Linda Herriot country lives in Thirsk and I could send her a e-mail asking for look up, I would go myself but cannot this week as its to far for me to driven at mo as feet/ legs are bad but maybe could get daughter to take me next week

Janet

09-05-12, 23:49

Oh Babs, what a wonderful thought. Many thanks! If you can work it out without too much trouble, that would be beyond my wildest dreams. I wouldn't ever want you to be driving around the countryside for my sake, though, not even for George's baptism. lol

I had looked to see how far from Northallerton my FH-inclined cousins are, and the one is 3 hours away and the other one even farther unless he goes to visit his parents, and then it's still almost an hour and a half from Leeds so I reluctantly concluded I couldn't ask. If nothing else works out, though, I'll put on my thinking cap and figure out how to get to an LDS office over here.

Yes, Merry, I'd say we're back to that wild hypothesis! :d Sad story, indeed. Thanks for finding that.

Oh, by the way, I had forgotten that my cousin's tree has Sarah Jane Spence's marriage certificate on it, George's last child before Jane's death and before marrying his second wife, my ggrandmother. It's a non-con ceremony at the Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in Headingley. And George has as many occupations as a cat has lives. Here he's a laundryman. (My ggrandmother was a laundress.)

Merry

10-05-12, 14:18

The household of Wm and Eliz Spence in 1851 included Jesse Spence aged 19, who then vanishes and was also not about in 1841. I'm wondering about this:

Name: Jesse Burley
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 23 Jan 1831
Baptism/Christening Place: ALL SAINTS PAVEMENT AND SAINT PETER THE LITTLE,YORK,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Jesse Burley
Mother's Name: Elizabeth

and

Groom's Name: William Spence
Bride's Name: Elizabeth Burley
Marriage Date: 07 May 1837
Marriage Place: Saint John Ousebridge,York,York,England

I can't find Jesse as a Burley in 1841 though there is a female transcribed by Ancestry as Jessey Boraley aged 10 (with two older brothers??). In 1851 I still can't find Jesse Burley, but possibly because he is called Spence?!! However, Jesse Burley reappears in 1855 marrying Margaret Garnett (not on Ancestry, sadly) is then on the censuses under various bodged mistranscriptions and eventually dies:

Deaths Jun 1915
BURLEY Jesse 84 York 9d 35

So, that takes us back to the possibility of William Spence being married to an Ann, baptising son George in 1829 and eventually remarrying to Elizabeth Burley, unhelpfully, just before civil registration!!

If the 1829 baptism turns out to have the right occupation, it might be worth comparing the mother's maiden name on the birth cert for Elizabeth Spence (reg 1838 Q1) with the likely maiden name for Mrs Jesse Burley senr:

Groom's Name: Jesse Burley
Bride's Name: Elizabeth Kempley
Marriage Date: 24 Nov 1823
Marriage Place: Tadcaster,York,England

Merry

10-05-12, 14:37

I think this "girl" is Jesse Burley/Spence as the brothers have matching baptisms:

1841 Queen St York

Richard Boraley 15
John Boraley 14
Jessey Boraley 10

Name: Richard Burley
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Dec 1824
Baptism/Christening Place: WHIXLEY,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Jesse Burley
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth

Name: John Burley
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 21 Aug 1826
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT MARGARET,YORK,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Jesse Burley
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth

(there are a couple more siblings then just the above)

Janet

10-05-12, 14:55

Ooh, ooh, ooh. Oh, Merry! Thank you. :D:D:D So Mrs Boynton may be George's half-sister?

I'm trying to get my hands on the 1829 baptism now, and if I do and if that seems to be my George because his father has the right occupation, then I'm ordering that birth cert for Elizabeth Spence (reg 1838 Q1) to see if she might be Mrs William Spence formerly Kempley late Burley. Yes?

You know, I think I was pondering that Jessey Boraley yesterday and I passed "her" by. I was looking for all the Jesse/Jessee/Jessie/Jessey references I could find in the likely places.

Merry

10-05-12, 15:00

The final bit that would have been nice would have been a bap for Elizabeth Kempley in Warthill, but there are no Kempleys there (1804-1812 is missing from the IGI I think and I guess there's a chance she is at the start of that gap), but not having any other Kempleys there is a shame. :(

Merry

10-05-12, 15:02

Ooh, ooh, ooh. Oh, Merry! Thank you. So Mrs Boynton may be George's half-sister?

I'd say it looks promissing!

Merry

10-05-12, 15:11

Another bother to keep in mind is that we had two Eliz Spence and three birth regs (1838, 1843 and 1844)

In 1851 we have two people

Elizabeth 1838 with Wm and Eliz
Elizabeth 1843ish with Ellen/Helen

Now we are aware that Elizabeth dau of Helen was drowned in 1860, but in 1861 we still have two people:

Elizabeth 1838 with her parents again AND
Eliz 1843ish (servant)

So........Oh I don't know lol!!! You work it out!!!! Mrs Boynton is???? Surely she must have just decided to be younger than her husband and is George's half sister??? *pretty please* :o:o:o

Janet

10-05-12, 15:33

Ooh, looky, look:

name: Elezebeth Kempley
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 22 Jun 1799
baptism/christening place: WARTHILL,YORK,ENGLAND
birth date:
birthplace:
death date:
name note:
race:
father's name: John Kempley
father's birthplace:
father's age:
mother's name: Hannah
mother's birthplace:
mother's age:
indexing project (batch) number: P00600-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 98541
reference number:

I've had a message from Babs' contact Linda inherriotcountry and she's going tomorrow to look up that Spence baptism for me.
:):):)

She wants to know if there's anything else while she's going. I guess I should ask her for details of the Kempley one too.

What else should I ask her?

borobabs

10-05-12, 15:36

Linda has appointment booked for in morning if any thing else needs looking up
opps didnt see that Janet lol

Merry

10-05-12, 15:55

lol Did you make up that baptism???? :mad: It wasn't there when I looked!!! lololol

Err, what else?.....

The 1837 marriage needs to be between a widower and a widow....

Nothing else vital, I don't think, but I have to go now..... :D

Janet

10-05-12, 15:57

I said that wrong. The Elizabeth Spence (reg 1838 Q1), we think, is perhaps the child who was with the William and Elizabeth Spence family, and it's her mother Elizabeth who might be a Kempley born 1799. Am I tracking now? ;(

I'm ordering that birth cert for Elizabeth Spence (reg 1838 Q1) to see if [not she but her mother] might be Mrs William Spence formerly Kempley late Burley. Yes?

It's the most glorious day here and I've got my nose glued to my computer screen! :eek: Have to go hang out some laundry.

EDIT: We cross-posted. Thanks!

Merry

11-05-12, 06:38

Still stuck with Elizabeth Spence

Bap 31 Dec 1837
Birth reg Q1 1838

1841 census - One Elizabeth (I'm calling her Elizabeth 1)

So up to there is fine...!

Birth Q4 1843
Birth Q1 1844

One baptism to fit those - Oct 1843 parents Benjamin and Helen (I'm suspicious Ben may be fictitious and Helen is the umarried lady)

I'm calling Elizabeth, dau of Helen, Elizabeth 2

1851 census - two Elizabeths. Cannot find Elizabeth 3

1860 Elizabeth 2 dies

1861 Elizabeth 1 and 3 appear (3 for the first time!)

1871 One Elizabeth shows up, but I don't know if she is 1 or 3.

In looking for another Elizabeth in 1871 (yours married in Leeds and said she was living in Headingley. The one on the census was living near Harrogate about 15 miles away) I discovered in passing that John Boynton probably began life as .....

Name: John Hutchinson
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 30 Jul 1842
Baptism/Christening Place: SEATON ROSS,YORK,ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Mary Hutchinson

(I don't see a birth reg for him)

and then his mother married

Marriages Dec 1847
Atkin Peter Pocklington 23 161
BOYNTON Henry Pocklington 23 161 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
DALES Elizabeth Pocklington 23 161
FOSTER Michael Pocklington 23 161
HUTCHINSON Mary Pocklington 23 161 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
RHODES Sarah Pocklington 23 161

In 1851 he is listed as John Hutch b Seaton Ross :rolleyes:

I wanted to find him in 1871 to see if he was near the Eliz already found, but having struggled up to here I don't have the time to look again! (I only looked for Boynton!)

Janet

11-05-12, 13:09

Wow, Merry. Thanks. I'll come back to that. Can't keep up with you! Good thing for me you have to slow down now and then. :rolleyes:

So the results are in from Northallerton. Linda says:

Baptism
25 Nov 1829 George son of William and Ann Spence, abode Brearton, father labourer

On the IGI there was just one other Spence baptism in that time scale with parents William and Ann, so I looked at that

4 Ap 1830 Robert son of William and Anne abode Knaresborough, father butcher so probably not the same couple given there is only four months between the dates,different spelling of mothers name and occupation

The other look ups you asked for can't be done at Northallerton because those parishes were in the ancient Ainsty of York (York city and some of the close villages). The records for those are held in a different place called the Borthwick Institute which is in the centre of York.

I'm happy! Back later. I have to start my morning.
:):):)

kiterunner

11-05-12, 13:20

That's good, Janet - definitely the right baptism, then.

Janet

11-05-12, 14:31

My heart soars! Thanks, Kite.

Merry

11-05-12, 15:12

kiterunner

11-05-12, 15:33

If only William and Elizabeth had waited two more months to get married, we would be able to get William's father's name from their marriage certificate.

Merry

11-05-12, 15:39

I know!

It's likely his father was William, but would have been nice to tie everything together a bit more.....

Name: William Spence
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 06 Apr 1805
Baptism/Christening Place: NEWTON UPON OUSE,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Spence
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Margaret

Linton on Ouse (where he said he was born) is in the parish of Newton on Ouse.

kiterunner

11-05-12, 15:57

Hmmm... I keep looking at this marriage:
William Spence married Ann Scaife 18 Jan 1829 at Catton near York.

If "Catton near York" means High Catton / Low Catton, then it is right near Stamford Bridge.

kiterunner

11-05-12, 15:58

Sorry, I was typing while you were posting! Yes, that baptism does look likely but it would have been nice to be able to confirm from his marriage cert.

Merry

11-05-12, 15:59

I wish we knew if Ann or Elizabeth was the mother of William b abt 1836 (aged 5 in 1841 and 14 in 1851). If we knew it was Ann it would leave a very small window for her death.

kiterunner

11-05-12, 16:14

Unless there was another wife in between!

Merry

11-05-12, 16:32

Unless there was another wife in between!

Stop it :mad::d

kiterunner

11-05-12, 18:00

Aha!

Baptism on FamilySearch:
William Burley 22 May 1836 Saint John Ousebridge, York, father William Spence Burley, mother Elizabeth.

I suspect the actual parish register is slightly different.

Merry

11-05-12, 18:03

Oooh, well done! So, born a little before they married.

So, Ann presumably died between 1829 and 1836ish.

Janet

11-05-12, 18:05

Yes, brilliant!!

Guess what? I can't believe I didn't notice this before, but if you look at the 1841 census you posted up right at the start of this thread the three Burley children are listed right under the family of Wm and Elizabeth Spence! Doh!!

Yay! Thank you. I guess I wasn't wrong, then. :)

Thanks for all this, both of you. I'm being pulled in several directions, sorry, so if I don't seem to be present on the thread it's involuntary on my part! I'm hanging on your every word but it's a bit catch as catch can. Got to run off for a little while again.

Linda in Herriot Country

11-05-12, 19:31

I am glad to have helped on the Spence baptism. This thread is so complicated, I can't get my poor head round it. I will try and make an appointment to go to York next week, if I can manage it and get in. If you supply me with list of specific look ups, I will see what I can do

Janet

12-05-12, 03:49

Linda, thank you, I hardly know what to say! You've done so much for me already and I'm deeply grateful. You certainly don't owe me anything, quite the contrary. If you've been caught up in the thrill of the hunt and you really want to make a special trip in spite of your tight timeframe that you already emailed me about, I don't want to tell you no and seem unappreciative of your selfless offer. There really isn't any rush at all, though, you know. I will be just as grateful and just as happy if I get an answer in weeks or months rather than days, so I hope you won't put yourself out. Even if you could never get into York at all I still thank you most sincerely, but on the premise that you will sooner or later have a look in York for me I will work up a list of questions. I may require just a little time to get my own head around all this... I will be back!

Merry

12-05-12, 08:11

Edit - forget this post and the next one - see posts #92 and #93

The William Spence who was aged 5 and 14 in 1841/51 with parents Wm and Elizabeth (ie the one born before his parents marriage and half brother of George) MAY be the same person who loses a couple of years from his age on the subsequent censuses, says he was b in Tockwith (very near York) and has these GRO entries.....

Marriages Sep 1851
Barry John York 23 763
CASSY Thomas York 23 763
Dixon Robert York 23 763
FRANKISH Caroline York 23 763 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
HARVEY Sarah York 23 763
Jennings Bridget York 23 763
MELLET Ann York 23 763
Spence William York 23 763 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Marriages Dec 1878
Park George William York 9d 102
Smith Rebecca York 9d 102
Spence William York 9d 102 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WIMBLES Ann York 9d 102 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (widow of Isaac Wimbles)

Likely death:

Deaths Jun 1884
SPENCE William 46 York 9d 36

The interesting thing is that Yorkshire BMD shows the first marriage as possibly being a Reg Offcie marriage like George's 1851 marriage (I'm not sure if it could just be registrar attended?). Annoyingly the second marriage doesn't show up anywhere else than the GRO as far as I can tell.

I was thinking that baptism which Kate found (Wm Spence Burley) might say where they were living (Tockwith?) and you never know, George might have been a witness at his brother's wedding given they married the same year. (though I suppose Wm wasn't George's witness!)

Merry

12-05-12, 13:18

Oh lol! This 2nd marriage for Wm Spence I mentioned in my last post.....

Marriages Dec 1878
Park George William York 9d 102
Smith Rebecca York 9d 102
Spence William York 9d 102 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WIMBLES Ann York 9d 102 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (widow of Isaac Wimbles)

turns out Isaac Wimbles was not dead at all and in 1891 Ann and her children were back with him, so the above marriage is probably bigamous. Isaac died in 1902!

Janet

12-05-12, 13:43

lol Merry! :D:D:D This thread is getting curiouser and curiouser.

George's witnesses on his 1850 marriage are Charlotte Burley and Andrew Burley. Part of the same Boraley/Burley family?

And on George's 1872 marriage the witnesses are James Moore and Jane Moore. Now who are they?

Sorry, it's Saturday and a reflooring project is underway shortly at the family summer cottage so I don't expect I can be around much this weekend on my thread. :( Will check in when I can.

Merry

12-05-12, 14:27

Oooh yes!

Andrew Burley says he was born in Green Hammerton abt 1814/16. That's in the parish of Whixley, so....

Name:

Andrew Burley
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Aug 1813
Baptism/Christening Place: WHIXLEY,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Andrew Burley
Mother's Name: Ann

This must very likely be his brother, below, (or half brother - there are baptisms for children with father Andrew from 1795 until 1807 and then Jesse in 1813 which is the only batism with a mother's name recorded) and presumably the late husband of Mrs Elizabeth Spence......So, George had his step-mother's brother-in-law (or half brother-in-law?!) witness his wedding?

Name: Jesse Burley
Gender:Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 30 Jun 1799
Baptism/Christening Place: WHIXLEY,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Andw. Burley

No mother recorded.

I guess Andrew junior might have been a menopausal baby as I can only see one marriage for Andrew senr and his wife does have the right first name!

Groom's Name: Andrew Burleigh
Bride's Name: Ann Headley
Marriage Date: 22 Feb 1790
Marriage Place: Saint Michael-Le-Belfry, York, York, England

Some men did like to have wives with the same first name though!!! lol

Merry

12-05-12, 14:30

And on George's 1872 marriage the witnesses are James Moore and Jane Moore. Now who are they?

That's a bit difficult!

Janet

12-05-12, 15:02

I didn't look to see if they were serial witnesses. Got to go! The work crew is here and loading up the equipment.

kiterunner

12-05-12, 15:20

The William Spence who was aged 5 and 14 in 1841/51 with parents Wm and Elizabeth (ie the one born before his parents marriage and half brother of George) MAY be the same person who loses a couple of years from his age on the subsequent censuses, says he was b in Tockwith (very near York) and has these GRO entries.....

Marriages Sep 1851
Barry John York 23 763
CASSY Thomas York 23 763
Dixon Robert York 23 763
FRANKISH Caroline York 23 763 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
HARVEY Sarah York 23 763
Jennings Bridget York 23 763
MELLET Ann York 23 763
Spence William York 23 763 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Marriages Dec 1878
Park George William York 9d 102
Smith Rebecca York 9d 102
Spence William York 9d 102 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WIMBLES Ann York 9d 102 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (widow of Isaac Wimbles)

Likely death:

Deaths Jun 1884
SPENCE William 46 York 9d 36

The interesting thing is that Yorkshire BMD shows the first marriage as possibly being a Reg Offcie marriage like George's 1851 marriage (I'm not sure if it could just be registrar attended?). Annoyingly the second marriage doesn't show up anywhere else than the GRO as far as I can tell.

I was thinking that baptism which Kate found (Wm Spence Burley) might say where they were living (Tockwith?) and you never know, George might have been a witness at his brother's wedding given they married the same year. (though I suppose Wm wasn't George's witness!)

Did William really get married in 1851 when he was only 14 or 15?

Merry

12-05-12, 17:47

lol Drat lets do that again!!

So.....I miscalculated his age by ten years somewhere along the line (but the death reg was when I was using the right age!! pmsl!).

So, the William from Tockwith isn't the right one because he is too old.

Can't see the right Wm after 1851.

kiterunner

12-05-12, 18:29

How about this one in 1871?
21 Fetter Lane, St John Micklegate, York
William Spence Head Mar 34 Labourer York
Ann Do Wife Mar 31 Launderess Do
Ada Do Dau 9 Scholar Do

kiterunner

12-05-12, 18:38

Can't find a birth registration for Ada Spence, but William kindly used this name on his marriage to help us find him! (Taken from FreeBMD)

Marriages Jun 1865
Harrison Ann York 9d 29
JACKSON Mary Jane York 9d 29
McMillan Robert York 9d 29
Spence William Burley York 9d 29

There are a couple of possible Ada Harrison birth regs if she was Ann's daughter.

kiterunner

12-05-12, 18:40

And the marriage is transcribed on FamilySearch - William Burley Spence, age 27, father William Spence, married Ann Harrison, age 25, father Thomas Harrison, All Saints North Street, York.

kiterunner

12-05-12, 18:41

Death registration Jul-Sep 1876 at York for William Burley Spence, age 39.

Merry

12-05-12, 19:07

That's much better. :)

I'm sure Janet didnt want the bigamist in any case!!!

kiterunner

12-05-12, 19:08

Looks like Ann (William Burley Spence's widow) married a Francis Grainger in 1878 and on the 1881 census they are at 8 Church Lane, All Saints North St., York
Francis Grainger Head Mar 48 Engine Fitter York
Ann Grainger Wife Mar 44 York
Thos Grainger Son 6 Scholar York.

Janet

12-05-12, 23:40

Holy cow, how am I ever going to wrestle all this into a tree? :d:d:d

Thank you, Kite! Thank you, Merry!

But you mean I have to give up the bigamist? Aw, shucks.

Linda in Herriot Country

14-05-12, 09:05

I have booked to go to York tomorrow (Tues 15th). I had three look ups Janet had asked me to do, but I don't know if they are still relevant, or if anything else needs adding to the list.

Merry

14-05-12, 09:17

Linda, would it be cheeky of me to ask what the three lookups are?

Janet

14-05-12, 13:20

Cheeky? Our Merry? Never! :d:p:rolleyes:

Seriously speaking, I would be enormously grateful for some help to define what really still needs a lookup because I don't want to send Linda on a wild goose chase. I had thrown in these three when she asked if there was anything else for Northallerton. I didn't know they would be at Borthwick and hence a separate trip.

I'm recovering from our floor-laying weekend and desperately trying to suck up coffee, knowing all the while that I'm running 5 hours behind you all and the clock is ticking because Linda has so kindly booked for tomorrow! :o

======================================

name: Elezebeth Kempley
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 22 Jun 1799
baptism/christening place: WARTHILL,YORK,ENGLAND
birth date:
birthplace:
death date:
name note:
race:
father's name: John Kempley
father's birthplace:
father's age:
mother's name: Hannah
mother's birthplace:
mother's age:
indexing project (batch) number: P00600-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 98541
reference number:
Source Citation
"England, Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J93N-FH2 : accessed 10 May 2012), Elezebeth Kempley, 1799.

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Groom's Name: William Spence
Bride's Name: Elizabeth Burley
Marriage Date: 07 May 1837
Marriage Place: Saint John Ousebridge,York,York,England

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Groom's Name: Jesse Burley
Bride's Name: Elizabeth Kempley
Marriage Date: 24 Nov 1823
Marriage Place: Tadcaster,York,England

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Merry

14-05-12, 15:32

I guess from the point of view of knowing if you have tied the right Wm and George Spence together using the 1829 baptism, the most important entry to see in full is the 1837 marriage between Elizabeth Burley and William Spence (already listed in Janet's post above). They need to be widower and widow for everything else to work out.

Any other entries would be just to see what additional info is provided. I don't know if this one would be where Linda is going?

Likely baptism for George's father William:

Name: William Spence
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 06 Apr 1805
Baptism/Christening Place: NEWTON UPON OUSE,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Spence
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Margaret

The only other thing I can think of is if there are any cross parish marriage indexes at York.

We are looking for a William Spence marrying an Ann, preferably before 1829 and probably not more than five years before that.

Similar situation with possible cross parish indexes for burials.....We assume Ann Spence died between 1829 and 1837, but we don't know where and her age would likely be under 40 and possibly under 30 if she was buried at the beginning of that time frame.

Obviously these last two are completely needle-in-a-haystack jobs if there are no indexes and I suppose the chances of there being indexes are fairly slim!

Janet

14-05-12, 15:52

Thank you, Merry!!!
* throwing-kisses smiley icon*

Linda in Herriot Country

14-05-12, 16:22

I have added the Newton on Ouse baptism, it is at York.

Without a parish to look at, it would be nigh on impossible to find the other two. Sometimes there are transcription books, if so I could look in them, but only if you could suggest some parishes for me

Merry

14-05-12, 17:05

I think it would be too onerous, Linda, unless there are any cross parish indexes.

Ann Spence might have been buried in Knareborough and the more likely the closer to 1829 that she died. However it looks as if William moved to York at some point and I guess there are loads of parishes/churches in the city.

Ann and Wm Spence might have married in Knaresborough, but they could just as easily been married anywhere else!

Without cross parish indexes it's also impossible to know if there are several possible entries or just one!! I've been lucky that several ROs I've contacted have had cross parish indexes though they have often turned out to be for the wrong time frame!!

Janet

14-05-12, 17:45

I have added the Newton on Ouse baptism, it is at York.

Thank you, Linda!!!
* throwing-kisses smiley icon*

Linda in Herriot Country

15-05-12, 16:27

Ok,

I own the National Burial index discs version 3, they cover the York Ainsty for the period you want, but there is no Ann Spence burial,so she is probably at Knaresborough. York don't have those, but Northallerton do have some transcripts for the burials.

I don't think you will need it though because

Marriage by banns 7 May 1837, St John's York, both of this parish, both signed.
William Spence widower and Elizabeth Burley widow Witnesses John Robinson and Jane Settle who made her mark. The same two witnesses appear on several marriages on the page,so they are just church officials.

Tadcaster York, marriage after banns 24 Nov 1823 Jesse Burley bachelor age 23, Elizabeth Kemperly (terribly badly written) spinster age 24 both of this parish. Witnesses James Atkinson and William Burniston (William is on several marriages on the page)

Warthill 22 June 1799 Elizabeth daughter of John and Hannah Kemperley. This is in the old handwritten sheet of paper type,not on an official form, so there is no other information given.

Same goes for the baptism of William Spence 5 Ap 1805 Newton on Ouse, it is the old handwritten format with no information other than parents William and Margaret Spence.