View Full Version : Captain Thomas Waterlow RN
Well Jess asked for it. :rolleyes:
I've started a new thread as I have invited the man who prompted me to ask about Thomas to join the site. He can find this by googling.
This thread started it all.
Captain X RN (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forumshowthread.php?t=14025)
I know little about Thomas and my friend would like to trace him backwards, if possible.
I know very little but here goes.
Thomas Waterlow was born about 1825.
He had a son called William Theodore Waterlow (aka Willie) in 1845 in India.
Willie married Jane Maria Marshall in 1870. Jane is the sister of my 2g grandmother Evelina Constance Matilda Marshall, who married my problematic Joseph Bridges.
Willie died in 1901. His newspaper death notice says "only son of the late Captain Waterlow RN".
We believe that Jane and Evelina were anglo-indian but there is nothing to suggest that William or Thomas were. Nothing to say they weren't either, for that matter.
My friend says that Thomas was known as Captain Thomas Waterlow RN but that in later years, at least, he was working on the railways (EIR) with his son Willie.
My friend thinks that RN may mean the Indian navy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Indian_Navy
Sorry if that is all jumbled, it's how my mind is today. :rolleyes:
kiterunner
01-05-12, 13:43
Do you have any details of Willie's birth or baptism, Toni?
kiterunner
01-05-12, 14:34
This thread on Rootschat has links to some Navy Lists from the 1840's that you could try:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,493513.0.html
Uncle John
01-05-12, 15:39
There are some Navy Lists on Ancestry. I've found some of my RN chappies on them.
kiterunner
01-05-12, 16:21
The only ones I can see on ancestry are 1908 and 1914, or are there others hiding somewhere else on there?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2406
Uncle John
01-05-12, 20:06
I've got references to my ancestor in Navy Lists of 1814, 1828, 1834 and 1840. But I haven't noted where I found them.
EDIT: If you Google Navy List 1814 one hit is a thread on FTF from November 2010 with links to a whole load of Navy Lists published on Google Books.
Do you have any details of Willie's birth or baptism, Toni?
No Kate. I emailed my contact, I should say cousin but I don't know how distant he is, last night asking how we know he was born about 1845 as I knew I'd be asked on here. If he was born in India I don't think anyone has the official baptism certificate as they list the DOB too.
As for the ancestry records there are some older navy records. I checked them but I can't quite remember I don't think there was a Thomas Waterlow.
Just checked my spam folder as optus does not want me getting mail from this man no matter how much I say it is ok. :mad: The 1845 YOB comes from him being 56 when he died in 1901. So the year could be a bit flexible.
This thread on Rootschat has links to some Navy Lists from the 1840's that you could try:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,493513.0.html
I've got references to my ancestor in Navy Lists of 1814, 1828, 1834 and 1840. But I haven't noted where I found them.
EDIT: If you Google Navy List 1814 one hit is a thread on FTF from November 2010 with links to a whole load of Navy Lists published on Google Books.
Off to look at these links, thanks.
Perhaps the b 1845 came from his age at burial?
Name: Willis Theodore Thomas Waterlow
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 15 Jul 1901
Burial Place: Jubbulpore, Bengal, India
Death Date: 15 Jul 1901
Death Place:
Age: 56
Birth Date: 1845
Birthplace:
Occupation: Loco. Foreman
In which case, how do they know the name and approx year of birth for his father (and that WTW was born in India)?
kiterunner
02-05-12, 07:02
Is his father's name (and occupation?) stated on his (i.e. Willie's) marriage certificate?
In which case, how do they know the name and approx year of birth for his father (and that WTW was born in India)?
I don't know how he got Thomas. It's not something I have found.
Is his father's name (and occupation?) stated on his (i.e. Willie's) marriage certificate?
I don't know. I've asked about the certificate, I just have to wait for the reply.
I have a scanned copy of the marriage cert for Willie Waterlow and Jane Marshall.
Willie is 20 and an engineman with the EIR. His father is Thomas but I don't know the occupation as that bit is cut off.
(on a side note it has a witness signature of J Marshall which is probably my 3g grandma, or 3g grandfather :))
Oops, the marriage occurned on 16/5/870.
kiterunner
02-05-12, 12:29
FIBIS has a marriage listed in Bengal in 1865 between a K William Waterlow and Lucilia A Stockman. I wonder whether they are connected with Willie.
Willie's newspaper death notice says he was the only son of Captain Waterlow.
He might be the only surviving son though.
I saw that marriage too but haven't come across that family. Doesn't mean they aren't connected though.
I wish we could find a birth for Willie. There are rumours/handed down stories that the family are either from scotland or related to the famous Waterlow, I think he was a politician or something, in London.
I tried scotland's people but had no response at all to Waterlow. I wonder if there is another way of spelling it.
kiterunner
02-05-12, 13:33
Waterloo, Waterloe, Waterlowe, Watterloo, are some of the variations I have come across today.
kiterunner
02-05-12, 13:34
This must be the famous one, though I can't say I've ever heard of him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Sydney_Waterlow,_1st_Baronet
That sounds like him Kate.
I think he was picked to hide the anglo-indian connections with the family. As far as we know though those connections only came from Willie's wife.
kiterunner
02-05-12, 13:51
It's quite common for families to have a belief that they are related to someone famous of the same surname with no evidence anyway, without it being done to hide something.
Uncle John
02-05-12, 18:59
It's quite common for families to have a belief that they are related to someone famous of the same surname with no evidence anyway, without it being done to hide something.
A bit like Alistair McGowan being convinced of his Scottish ancestry, only to discover that he was seventh generation Anglo-Indian.
lol UJ he just needs to go back another generation.
Kate I know many people say they are related to someone famous. There are many anglo-indians though that lied about their origins, for example, one person that I know, his grandma said she was maltese, rather than admit to the truth.
I've had a thought and I probably should have had it before all this.
We should be focussing on Willie and his birth, shouldn't we?
I think the best bet would be to see if there are any employment records left from the EIR. My friend can get the the British library to check the records.
kiterunner
03-05-12, 06:55
We should be focussing on Willie and his birth, shouldn't we?
Yes, I agree.
ok my friend has checked the marriage cert and Thomas' occupation was Engineman EIR.
I know we are focussing on Willie but I'm putting down info as I get it.
Any ideas on what can be done to find Willie's birth?
kiterunner
03-05-12, 13:28
I could be way off here, but I wonder whether a former Royal Navy Captain would be likely to work as an engineman? Could it be that Thomas's rank was inflated a bit by the time his son's obituary was printed?
Might be worth getting a look at the full entry for that other Waterlow marriage in case there is a clue in there. Also find out whether there are any employment records available for the EIR staff.
I thought the same as you Kate about the rank. Also I read something somewhere about a person retiring from the army or navy, can't remember, and he had applied for and been granted permission, to keep using his title. I also wish that they had used Thomas' name in the obituary. We only have it recorded on the marriage cert so far.
My friend is looking at the EIR records to see what is there. I know there are yearly staff lists but I don't know what they contain. If it is just an employment number and name that wont help. If they were employed from the UK then there is a chance that the original employment forms survived and he will look as soon as he can.
I've emailed him and asked him to get the details of the marriage.
FIBIS has a marriage listed in Bengal in 1865 between a K William Waterlow and Lucilia A Stockman. I wonder whether they are connected with Willie.
Familysearch have that marriage as Waterman and Hockman. I can't find any children from it for either name.
Waterloo, Waterloe, Waterlowe, Watterloo, are some of the variations I have come across today.
I came across WaterFlow today as well.
Well my friend went to the library yesterday and I was so excited Thomas Waterlow worked on the railways from 1865, is of European descent, as opposed to East Indian descent. The 1890 half yearly staff lists state he was 22 years 3 months when employed ie born 1843.
It has taken me an hour to realise that it can't be Willie's father, Thomas, as Willie was born roughly 1845.
This Thomas Waterlow though followed my 2g grandfather Joseph around though, so Joseph would have known him.
What is the likelihood that Willie was employed by the name Thomas? I think I am clutching at straws.
A person in BL suggested to my friend that the L/F/10/229-44 1884-1900 State railway payroll could be useful. Does anyone have any other ideas?
oh I'm so frustrated. It all worked out so well when I thought Willie was born in 1865.
kiterunner
30-05-12, 06:57
Could this Thomas be Willie's brother, maybe?
It's entirely possible, Kate. We have no idea on anything.
It is just weird that there is a Thomas Waterlow employed with the EIR, and no Willie, especially as Willie said he did work there and no Thomas the father, who was also supposed to work there. I also can't find any other records for this Thomas.
kiterunner
30-05-12, 07:17
Could be him, then.
That's what I'm thinking Kate but no idea how to prove it.
Because I have no idea part of me is thinking Thomas is not Willie. I'm checking if anyone has birth certs for Willie's kids to see what was put on there. I'm also getting the marriage Kate mentioned above checked out.
It is possible that my Joseph married his friend/collegue's brother's wife's sister. :confused:
Does anyone have any other ideas? My friend goes back to the British Library soon.
Update:
The 1865 marriage between K William Waterlow and LucilliaStockman is actually Th William Waterlow and took place in a catholic church. Th William Waterlow is a Prev Officer.
The age fits the Thomas Waterlow that is employed by the EIR. I have no idea what a Prev Officer is but the EIR records state Thomas was a driver in 1865.
Th William's father is Anthony and Willie Waterlow's father is Thomas, which is a discrepancy. The other issue is Lucilia - she does not appear to exist after the marriage, she doesn't seem to have children, nor does she die.
Does anyone have any ideas where to go from here?
kiterunner
15-06-12, 07:21
Does it give Anthony's occupation, and does Thomas's signature look anything like Willie's? (Or did one or other or both "make their mark"?)
It didn't give Anthony's occupation and my friend said that it was a copy of the register so the signatures were the minister transcribing their names, so we can't compare.
He has also contacted me over night and thnks Prev Officer is a Fire Prevention Officer and the EIR records state Thomas was a fireman in 1865.
As they married in a catholic church he is going to look at the catholic records to see if he can find anything there. I've suggested to look at Lucillia first marriage as I don't think Willie married in the catholic church the second time so I'm wondering if she was the catholic.
kiterunner
16-06-12, 09:53
What was Lucilia's father's name, please, Toni?
Her father was John Christopher Thomas. She was a widow and had married Mr Stockman.
kiterunner
16-06-12, 11:13
FamilySearch has a baptism for Robert Thomas Stockman 14 Feb 1864 Burdwan, Bengal, India, parents William Stockman and Lucilia Anna.
William Stockman died 8 Sep 1865 buried 9 Sep 1865 Howrah, Bengal, India, age 45. Occupation Engine Dr E.I. Rly Co. I think that's the first time I've ever seen an occupation on FamilySearch!
William Stockman married Cecilia Anna Thomas 15 Jan 1859 Calcutta, Bengal, his father John Stockman, her father John Christopher Thomas.
So we need to look for Lucilia under the name Cecilia too.
Lucilia is playing games. I found her first marriage as:
groom's name: William Stockman
bride's name: Cecilia Anna Thomas
marriage date: 15 Jan 1859
marriage place: Calcutta, Bengal, India
groom's father's name: John Stockman
bride's father's name: John Christopher Thomas
kiterunner
16-06-12, 11:35
Of course, now we know all that information, I can see that her second marriage was fully transcribed (apart from occupations) on FamilySearch all the time with fathers' names shown - just so badly mangled I didn't see it before, especially since the groom's first name was mangled in the version we did find originally.
It has them as Thomas William Waterton and Lucilia Ann Hockman. Shows her age as 24 - is that bit right, at least? So she would be born about 1841.
William died in 1865, and she remarried Th William rather quickly.
William and Lucilia had a son Robert Thomas Stockman in 1864.
I can't find any other records of Robert either.
Cross posted Kate. Yes her age was 24.
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