View Full Version : mystery i didn't know i had
talking to my older sister in the states, she's 76, yesterday, she asks how is the family search going, i explained to hear that we will probably never know who our grandfather was because he doesn't appear on any records, so she then says did you solve the mystery of our mum's oldest sister
i am like, what mystery? she then explains that our auntie wimmie or winnie was thought to have arrived before our grandparents got married in 1901
i check my records for patrick and sarah dunne in 1911 at 4 court, house 1, rothwell street, liverpool and she is not on the census, i never noticed
i email my older cousin who lived in the same streets and has a good knowledge of this side of the family and her reply is below;
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your email. A bit of a conundrum isn't it? The story I was told by my Mum was that years ago when Auntie Sally - or Grannie Dunn was working in a big house (somewhere in Liverpool - don't know where tho) as a servant she became pregnant. The father was rumoured to be the well off chappie who owned the house. Auntie Wimmie was the baby. I recall the fact being discussed on many an occasion between my Mum and Auntie Sally also Wimmie too. The family often pointed out the fact that Wimmie had an aristrocratic bearing. I also recall a story about Auntie Sally either taking the chap from the big house to court or else threatening to do so and that matters were eventually settled out of court. I do remember the night Auntie Sally passed away, Wimmie sent for my Mum. Auntie Sally also told my Mum she was going to die and she did too...then my Mum did the necessary.
this is all news to me, anyway my cousin finds wimmie's daughters birth details (marian thornton) and sure enough mothers name is walsh
now i have the family in 1901 and 1911 and no sign of wimmie (walsh?) where was she and when was her birth (before 1901) and who was the father, any help would be appreciated, still a bit shocked, nobody tells me anything
There's a couple Winifred Walsh births in Liverpool around that time.
that's what i was worried about
I can't even find Patrick and sarah on the 1911.
they are there patrick dunne 38
sarah dunne 32
george 9
matthew 7
elizabeth 4
joseph 6 months all at rothwell street, west derby, liverpool
the winifred margaret in 1898 in west derby looks good, all the family were from the west derby area of liverpool
they are there patrick dunne 38
sarah dunne 32
george 9
matthew 7
elizabeth 4
joseph 6 months all at rothwell street, west derby, liverpool
I have looked up this family and am confused, because I have those children and Sarah and the address exactly as you have written, but the head of house is David Dunne aged 33 as clear as day.
Yet here is the marriage (I presume)
Marriages Sep 1901
DUNNE Patrick Liverpool 8b 160
WALSH Sarah Ann Liverpool 8b 160
WOODS Mary Jane Liverpool 8b 160
Woodworth Thomas Henry Liverpool 8b 160
So, did Patrick change his name? (and his age!!)
Anyway, I know that's not what you were asking, but I was trying to make your story a bit clearer.
This child:
Births Dec 1900
Walsh Winifred Liverpool 8b 37
seems to be a patient in a hospital at Olive Mount Wavertree, Lancs.
I'll see if I can see where she is in 1901.
the winifred margaret in 1898 in west derby looks good, all the family were from the west derby area of liverpool
This one is with her parents (Edward and Catherine) in 1911.
and this one:
This child:
Births Dec 1900
Walsh Winifred Liverpool 8b 37
seems to be a patient in a hospital at Olive Mount Wavertree, Lancs.
I'll see if I can see where she is in 1901.
is with her parents in 1901 (Walter and Rose), so she isn't your Winifred either!
Do you hae her death registration?
this is all news to me, anyway my cousin finds wimmie's daughters birth details (marian thornton) and sure enough mothers name is walsh
And what about the Thornton/Walsh marriage? Have you found that?
Do you know Marian's father's first name?
The only marriage I could find in the right place and time was this one:
Marriages Jun 1921
Grant George Hamilton W.Derby 8b 546
Hamilton Gertrude M Grant W.Derby 8b 546
Thornton Thomas Walsh W.Derby 8b 546
Walsh Sarah L Thornton W.Derby 8b 546
Or did Winifred marry as a Dunne and then use her other surname when registering her children? I looked for a marriage Dunne/Thornton but couldn't find one, so we need Winifred's death reg next.
So, to clarify, do you know Win's husband's first name and her date of death?
when i was a young man i remember visiting marian, who used the name thornton and cunliffe, her present husbands name, she had mum and dad living with her, that would be wimmie and her husband known as jimmy fisher
wimmie died in the 70's, she had dementia for a while and was approaching 80, the four of them were living together in knotty ash, liverpool
incidentally olive mount was quite a famous hospital that cared for mentally handicapped children, now closed
i think my grandfather was david patrick dunne known as paddy dunne, have seen both christian names used
wimmie died in the 70's, she had dementia for a while and was approaching 80, the four of them were living together in knotty ash, liverpool
Do you know which reg district Knotty Ash would have been in?
Ihave just tried Win* Thornton 1975+/- 5 years in Lancashire and there was just two matches - the only one who died in Liverpool (the other one was Blackpool) wasn't born until 1911.
Do you know Win's husband's name?
it could also be west derby but is close to prescot as well, later knowsley after reorganization
her husband known as jimmy fisher
Sorry, I missed that bit. Is that a nick-name?
as far as i know he was jimmy fisher but i dont know if they were married and she was still known as thornton or walsh or dunne
it could also be west derby but is close to prescot as well, later knowsley after reorganization
I meant had you actually researched it!!! I will do that now.
funny enough his nickname was fluke, please don't ask
You are not helping!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you mean his name was Jimmy Fisher Thornton?
Knotty Ash is in the civil parish of West Derby which was in West Derby reg district until 1922. From 1969-1974 it was in Liverpool District, which is as far forward as I can go.
i am not sure, jimmy thornton or jimmy fisher, names in my family were a bit flexible, not sure who anybody really is
my sister sheila in america is baptized bernadette, apparently at the christening the priest asked my mother what is the name of this child, when she replied sheila he flew into a rage and said what kind of a christian name is that and refused to baptize her, her second name is bernadette and he agreed to use that
as far as i know he was jimmy fisher but i dont know if they were married and she was still known as thornton or walsh or dunne
I thought you realised I needed to know the name of Mr Thornton because I was trying to find the marriage of Winifred as I need to know what her official first name(s) were.
At the moment I don't have a birth or a marriage or a death for her.
Does anyone have Marian's birth cert or the cert of any sibling? (please don't post anything detailed about living people though)
OK - just read your post 23. So, even if we did have Winifred's death details the information given might not be correct?
Do you know how many children Win had? (just the number)
marian was born 1922 in west derby
i think 3 children, 2 boys and a girl, i think?
And did she have three siblings?
well yes, my mum and all the family but she doesn't show up with them in 1911
i think 3 children, 2 boys and a girl, i think?
Sorry, we keep cross posting....(when I said siblings I meant Marian's, which is what you mean above, I think?)
OK so maybe not all the Thornton/Walsh children were from the same family.
At the moment I can't see a marriage for Walsh or Dunne to Thornton except the one for Sarah L, but as she was born in 1890 and died in the 1950s she can't be your Sarah Walsh's daughter as she is too old.
Does anyone have Marian's birth cert?
Does anyone know Sarah Dunne (nee Walsh) parents' names? Winnie might be with them.
sadly no, but pretty sure 1922 with mother as walsh, marian's surname thornton
Libby, I expect the answer to that is on another thread. I see to remember a martin Walsh?
I can't find any child to fit what we have been told so far on the 1901 census who isn't with her parents. There are no Win* Walsh registrations between then and the 1901 marriage, so I'm thinking she must have had a different forename?
sarah's parents are martin and mary walsh but i think i have them at 126 field street, everton but no baby in 1901
sadly no, but pretty sure 1922 with mother as walsh, marian's surname thornton
Well, if you want to get to the bottom of this, you may need that cert. (Unless your contact has any more concrete info)
yes, i think you are right, might be an intersting read that cert, will try and find out if anyone knew any other names for her
i have a marian j thornton in june qt. 1922 west derby with mother walsh, i think that is her, its on free bmd, wim daughter that is
So, you only 'think' that's the right certificate? What about the potential sibling names? Do they fit?
I have sent you a pm about Marian explaining why I do think that is the right birth reg.
kiterunner
09-04-12, 15:19
Aha!
There is a marriage 25 Dec 1915 at St Benedict's, Walton, Liverpool, between a Mary Agnes Walsh, age 21, spinster, of 7 Rendal Street, and James Thornton, age 22, bachelor, also of 7 Rendal Street. Her father is named as Martin Walsh, deceased, and his as James Thornton, deceased. (This is in the Liverpool marriages on ancestry)
And ancestry has a WW1 army service record for James Fisher Thornton, of 7 Rendal Street, who joined up 12th Dec 1915, age 22 yrs 4 mths, unmarried. (Army number 62547, and a few other numbers, rank Private) On page 2 of the papers his next of kin is stepfather Thomas Fisher, crossed out and replaced with wife Mary Agnes Thornton of 4 Victoria Terrace, Liverpool. There is one child's name filled in, a boy born 1916. I won't post his name up in case he is still alive but I can PM it to you if you need it. James's occupation when he joined up is painter. He qualified as a platelayer in the Royal Engineers.
o.k. i think i have found her, my cousin sent me an ancestry entry which seemed to include all our family names but made no sense, its a marriage for mary agnes walsh and james thornton, father down as martin walsh (deceased)
now i look at the family of martin and there is no mary agnes but then i notice the witnesses, one is lilian murphy who i am sure was witness for my grandparents and is my cousins who sent its aunt
she is 21 on the marriage cert so i look for a mary agnes walsh birth in liverpool and there is one on the 1901 census as a lodger nearby, date of marriage xmas day 1915, can someone take a look, i think she used her grandfathers name as father because he probably brought her up
kiterunner
09-04-12, 15:23
See my post above yours!
wow, we are there, james fisher thornton, can only be him, wimmie or mary agnes took grandfathers name and pretended he was her father at the marriage, interesting if anyone can see who she is with as a lodger in 1901, thanks everybody for all your help, by the way none of these folks are alive so don't worry about posting
kiterunner
09-04-12, 15:33
I can't see a Mary Agnes Walsh who is a lodger on the 1901 census, sorry. Can you say what site you found her on and what info it shows, please?
wow, we are there, james fisher thornton
I thought James Fisher and Mr Thornton were two different people? Clearly not.
I can't see the Liverpool birth reg you mentioned?
The Mary who is a lodger in 1901 seems to be with her parents Patrick and Ellen. (no relationships though)
I still can't find a death reg. It would be useful to hopefully lead to the birth reg.
it was on family search that i found the 1901 census mention when i searched for a birth subtracting 21, her age , from 1915, i didn't know jimmy fisher as i knew him was thornton as well
Name: Mary A Walsh
Event: Census
Event Date: 31 Mar 1901
Gender: Female
Age: 7
Relationship to Head of Household: Lodger
Birthplace: Liverpool, Lancashire
Record Type: Household
Registration District: Liverpool
Sub-district: Islington
Ecclesiastical Parish: St Anne
Civil Parish: Liverpool
County: Lancashire
kiterunner
09-04-12, 15:49
That Mary A Walsh on FamilySearch is the one Merry found with Patrick and Ellen then.
Just because she said she was 21 at marriage doesn't mean she was!
These are the ones we need to iliminate/select from:
Births Mar 1891
Walsh Mary Agnes Wharfedale 9a 137
Births Mar 1892
Walsh Mary Agnes Burnley 8e 181
Births Jun 1892
Walsh Mary Agnes Ecclesall B. 9c 345
Births Mar 1893
Walsh Mary Agnes Oldham 8d 714
Births Sep 1893
Walsh Mary Agnes Barton I. 8c 673
Births Mar 1894
Walsh Mary Agnes Manchester 8d 316
Births Jun 1894
Walsh Mary Agnes Prescot 8b 748
Walsh Mary Agnes Whitehaven 10b 671
Births Dec 1894
Walsh Mary Agnes K Middlesbro' 9d 537
Births Mar 1896
Walsh Mary Agnes Birmingham 6d 133
Walsh Mary Agnes Blackburn 8e 454
Births Sep 1896
Walsh Mary Agnes Manchester 8d 223
Births Mar 1898
Walsh Mary Agnes Bradford 9b 122
Births Jun 1898
Walsh Mary Agnes York 9d 39
Births Mar 1899
Walsh Mary Agnes Manchester 8d 303
Births Jun 1899
Walsh Mary Agnes Richmond, S. 2a 430
Walsh Mary Agnes Blackburn 8e 439
Births Sep 1899
Walsh Mary Agnes Leeds 9b 458
Births Jun 1900
WALSH Mary Agnes Salford 8d 28
Assuming she was born in Lancs and was actually called Mary Agnes at birth, of course!
Still no joy with her death. Do you know if she had any further marriages (and not to anyone called Fisher :rolleyes: !!!!!!)
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:01
There is a Mary Walsh age 17 born Liverpool living in Manchester on the 1911 census at a place called St Vincent's Home. Occupation laundry work at public laundry. But whether it's her or not, can't say.
no further marriage, they died not long apart living with marian
none of those areas have any connection to the family i have seen before
wait a minute prescot is near
wait a minute prescot is near
What about Knotty Ash though?
Perhaps she died in a not-too-local hospital?
Oh, I guess you are taking about her birth?
Don't forget women sometimes travelled to another town when having an illegitimate child.
knotty ash where she died is next to prescot, the girl in manchester is interesting, right age, catholic place by the sound of it, i wonder if she was taken away from sarah as often happened in these cases, when i worked in a clinic on the isle of man in 1996 we had a domestic who was orphaned and shipped to the mainland, came back as a teenager, standard practice in them days
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:11
There is a James Thornton death Apr-Jun 1973 Liverpool district, age 79, which may or may not be the right one. Date of birth 4 Aug 1893.
The 1894 Prescot birth is the easiest to identify in 1901 as she is listed with her full name, parents Edward and Jessie. B St Helens.
knotty ash where she died is next to prescot
But there are no obvious deaths in Prescot either.
james thornton looks about right time wise
perhaps sarah was bungled off to a convent to have the baby
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:18
There is an Agnes Thornton death registered Jan-Mar 1973 Liverpool district, date of birth 10 Nov 1896. Mistranscribed as Anges on ancestry; I'll send in a correction. Do you (or your sister) know what day of the year Wimmie's birthday was, even if you don't know the year?
Oooh, nice one kate. I had forgotten they were Catholic. Might explain the dropped Mary.
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:21
And there is an Agnes Walsh birth registered Oct-Dec 1896 West Derby district.
sorry no idea of hr birthday
I just got that too! lol
So the Mary was a little addition for marriage. Kate, was it a Catholic marriage? (sorry I haven't had time to see which data base you got it from)
dropped mary, what does that mean
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:27
Kate, was it a Catholic marriage? (sorry I haven't had time to see which data base you got it from)
Looks like a C of E one - "the established Church" and it is on the Liverpool marriages database, St Benedict's church, Walton / Everton.
Of course we don't know whether that Agnes Walsh birth reg is the right one without the cert.
This is her, because of the Shropshire connection.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LANRG13_3480_3481-0043&fn=Agnes&ln=Walsh&st=r&ssrc=&pid=20835235
dropped mary, what does that mean
When I was at school there were some Catholic girls, several of whom had Mary as their first name, but they never used that name. It's irrelevant now though, because Mary Agnes seems to have been just Agnes at birth.
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:30
This is her, because of the Shropshire connection.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LANRG13_3480_3481-0043&fn=Agnes&ln=Walsh&st=r&ssrc=&pid=20835235
Oh, I was just looking at that but I couldn't remember whether there was supposed to be a Shropshire connection or not!
i don't have ancestry, can someone tell what the link is, cheers
yes, mother sarah was born in whitchurch, shropshire
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:37
i don't have ancestry, can someone tell what the link is, cheers
1901 census, South Everton, there is a family
James Robertson Head M 28 bricklayer Scotland
Mary J Robertson Wife M 26 Whitchurch Shropshire
Alan Robertson son 3 Lancs Liverpool
Agnes Robertson sister 19 Scotland
Agnes Walsh niece 4 Lancs Liverpool.
So it looks likely that the younger Agnes is Wimmie.
If the birth reg Kate posted is the right one then Agnes MIGHT have been a twin:
Births Dec 1896
Walsh Agnes W. Derby 8b 286
Walsh Alexander W. Derby 8b 286
Deaths Dec 1896
Walsh Alexander 0 W. Derby 8b 228
If you get Agnes's birth cert you will know if she was a twin because the cert will have her time of birth on it. If it doesn't, then there was just another Walsh mother delivered around the same time within West Derby district.
wow, mary j is sarahs sister, they all lived in whitchurch before moving to liverpool, amazing find
This ties it all up. See the dob which matches the one on the death kate found:
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Maria Agnes Walsh b 10 Nov 1896 bap 18 Jan 1897 St Michael Mother Sarae Walsh
kiterunner
09-04-12, 16:44
Oh well done, Merry, I forgot to look for Maria! (Catholic baptisms tend to have the first names translated into Latin and Maria was the Latin version of Mary.)
I didn't know that, but I only looked for Agnes!!
just spoke to my sister in the states and she remembers hearing a story about sarah having had twins but she thought it was with our grandfather and one must have died and it wasn't spoken of openly, great piece of research, am very pleased with the result, a sincere thank you to one and all
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