Edward Jones

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi I am struggling with finding out about my great grandfather, the info I have is that he was born in sheffield 1873? married to Mary Jane Jones (maiden name Jones) in Newtown 1899. they had 5 children. on the 1901 wales census has him down as Edward Jones but on the 1911 has him down as Edward H Jones. died 1956 in north wales, I am trying find his birth record and death record, I have his marriage cert. my aunt seem to think he was brought up in an orphanage or workhouse, but I don't know how to find out if there is any truth in this. as I am trying to find out who his parents were. all I certain of is the names of his wife and children, I would love to get a copy of his birth cert but without out the name of either 1 parents I'm not sure where to look.

Zoe

[Merry]

I take it there is no father's name on his marriage certificate?

[Merry]

Do you know where in North Wales he died?

For ref....

1911 aged 34
1901 aged 25

[Zoemcdougall]

It has Edward as his father's name, (deceased). But when I tried to look for his birth record, couldn't find any with Edward as the father,

[Zoemcdougall]

He is buried in porthmadog cemetary,.

[Merry]

Do you know that he died in that area though?

I think Porthmadog would have come under the reg district of Pwllhel and Portmadoc (Genuki uses the English spelling) but if I look for Edward Jones b 1875+/-5 years I don't get any registration even within five years of 1956.

Do you know if he has a gravestone?

[Zoemcdougall]

He does have a gravestone, I have been once but that was a very long time ago, I seem to think he was about 82/83, when he died. i don't know for certain that he died in Porthmadog, i know that he used to visit his daughter alot in prestatyn,, north wales, so maybe he died there. on his marriage cert his age was 22. I have just spoken to my Dad & has just told me he died in Rhyl. I was always under the impression because he livred in Porthmadog and buried there he died there. so all I know for sure is that he was born Sheffield, by 1901 living in wales, married and died in Wales. but no nearer finding out who his parents were, why he moved from Sheffield to Wales
Zoe

[Merry]

I've just found some threads on Rootschat which inclde this:

on his gravestone it has aged as 83, 18th Jan 1956. by my calculations it should be 79.

Going with the idea that his death cert may well also say 83 years I found these registrations:

Name: Edward Jones
Birth Date: abt 1873
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1956
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: St Asaph
Inferred County: Denbighshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 641

Name: Edward Jones
Birth Date: abt 1873
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1956
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: St Asaph
Inferred County: Denbighshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 615

There are more if the criteria is widened though.

[Merry]

We cross posted - Rhyl is in St Asaph district.

[Zoemcdougall]

Do you think I should order both of these cert to see which is the right one?, then it just leaves me with finding his birth entry, which is proving difficult

[Merry]

In 1901 he and his wife are in Llanwnnog. In 1891 there is a servant called Edward Jones aged 18 b Sheffield living at Tregynon which is less than five miles away. I would think this is fairly likely to be your Edward.

[Merry]

Do you think I should order both of these cert to see which is the right one?, then it just leaves me with finding his birth entry, which is proving difficult

No!

Rather than ordering via the GRO I would use North Wales BMD and print off an application for one of those certs, then write on it that there is a choice of two certs, and note down the other one on the form. The registrars at the relevant office (I forget where it is now, but it's printed on the form) are very helpful. Tell them anything you know about him at death - occupation, name of spouse if she might have registered the death, name of anyone else who might have done so etc etc Where he might have been living if you know that. (the 'other' death will hopefully be in a different town within St Asaph district if you are lucky!)

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Merry,

How do I go about finding his birth record? and finding out if there is any truth of him being in a workhouse or indeed an orphan, which my aunt seems to think,

[Merry]

In 1901 he and his wife are in Llanwnnog. In 1891 there is a servant called Edward Jones aged 18 b Sheffield living at Tregynon which is less than five miles away. I would think this is fairly likely to be your Edward.

Or there's another one (they are both farm serants) at Cyfoeth y Brenin, Cardiganshire who is a couple of years younger. I've not worked out where that is yet though!!

[Zoemcdougall]

Just got his marriage cert infront of me, he was residing in Bryncae Tregynon, there is a name after Bryncae but can't read what it says.

[Merry]

I am told that he had his birthday on 1st Jan.

Perhaps because he didn't know his birthday?

[Merry]

I have to go out now, so not igoring you :)

[Zoemcdougall]

You maybe right, so what do think I can do find his actual birth? sorry to ask all these questions but don't what to do, His youngest daughter is still alive but is asking to help her to find info on her father, I never knew him, but you would think his own daughter would know about her own father !!!!

[Merry]

In 1901 he and his wife are in Llanwnnog. In 1891 there is a servant called Edward Jones aged 18 b Sheffield living at Tregynon which is less than five miles away. I would think this is fairly likely to be your Edward.

Or there's another one (they are both farm servants) at Cyfoeth y Brenin, Cardiganshire who is a couple of years younger. I've not worked out where that is yet though!!


Cyfoeth y Brenin is in the parish of Llanfihangel-Geneu'r-y-Glyn (I think!). This is 25 miles from Llanwnnog, which doesn't preclude it being your Edward, though perhaps less likely. This chap is 17, not 14 as the transcription states, so we have one 17 and one 18, one close to the 1901 address and one not so close. I did wonder if they might even be the same person, if he was moving from one job to the other! The lad in Cyfoeth y Brenin says he speaks English and Welsh and the other one just English, but I guess that doesn't help much.

Still not having any luck with the 1881 census.

There are people on this forum who have been looking for births of individuals from this era for 20 or 30 years plus (including me!)! Some will probably never be found - but don't give up yet! lol

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Merry, What do you think I should do next?

[Zoemcdougall]

One think I have just thought of, with reading your last post again, My Dad always said his Grandfather spoke welsh.

[Merry]

I don't know really - sometimes something comes along when you least expect it.

First you need to make a list of the possible birth registrations for him if he was registered with his correct name (I think there were around five or six possibles) and make sure they are all eliminated and make notes for yourself as to why they are not 'the one'. Then keep the list, as otherwise you will keep going round in circles.

You could also check Sheffield BMD to make sure the registrations they hold locally are the same as the ones listed by the GRO (not all registrations made the leap from the local office to the GRO)

I don't know if any Sheffield baptism records are available online (haven't looked) but if he was born in an institution they were usually keen for the child to be baptised soon after birth.

[Merry]

Edward Benjamin Jones, b 1874 Sheffield, had father Edward but EBJ died in 1891 aged 16.

[Merry]

One think I have just thought of, with reading your last post again, My Dad always said his Grandfather spoke welsh.

As his first language?

[Merry]

The later census records state English (not Welsh or Both) for his spoken language.

[Zoemcdougall]

I don't know if welsh was his first language, just that my father remembers him speaking in Welsh. my aunt gave me a birth record entry with Volume No 9c page 595, but not convinced this is the right one?

[Zoemcdougall]

I have just remembered something that he apparently he celebrated his birthday 1st Jan he apparently went to his Daughters in Prestatyn to celebrate it, but given alot about him don't add up, I'm totally not sure. things I'm certain of, is his name of his wife, children's names, lived at the Cambrian crossing, had a farm in Porthmadog, and then lived in a house in porthmadog called Trem Tecwyn, also which I had also forgotten that he gave a piece of land away to the local cricket team.

[Merry]

Well, as he didn't admit to speaking Welsh at all when he personally completed the 1911 census form, I guess it certainly wasn't his first language!

my aunt gave me a birth record entry with Volume No 9c page 595, but not convinced this is the right one?

That would be this one:

Births Mar 1876
Jones Edward Sheffield 9c 595

and I would have expected that registration to belong to the son of William and Mary Ann Jones who are living at Attercliffe cum Darnall in 1881. Their son Edward is aged 5 and b in Attercliffe which is in Sheffield District. However, it's never possible to be absolutely certain without the actual certificate in your hand!

[Zoemcdougall]

Should I order this cert, I know I am cluching at straws, but he is the only one at is eluding me from family tree, With you giving me the name of William as a possible name for his father, I think maybe my aunt could be right as Edward's eldest child was called William but that maybe just a coincidence.

[Zoemcdougall]

But then if William is his father why on the marriage cert it has the name of the father as
Edward, totally confused, he's a tricky character to find info on

[kiterunner]

on his marriage cert his age was 22.

Usually (though of course, not always) ages on marriage certificates are more accurate than on death certs and if he was 22 when he got married in 1899, he would have been born about 1876-77. But I haven't looked at his age on the censuses yet.

[Merry]

There are in post two of this thread Kate.

[kiterunner]

He's 34 on the 1911 census (if I'm looking at the right family?) which would also suggest born 1876-7. And in 1901 he is 25 which would mean born 1875-6.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kiterunner & Merry. If the record of the birth is the one my aunt seems to think it is, why the different names of the Birth & marriage cert,

[kiterunner]

There are in post two of this thread Kate.
You mean post 3! Thanks.

[Merry]

Should I order this cert, I know I am cluching at straws, but he is the only one at is eluding me from family tree, With you giving me the name of William as a possible name for his father, I think maybe my aunt could be right as Edward's eldest child was called William but that maybe just a coincidence.

I meant the cert probably belongs to a child who isn't your Edward, because he has the wrong father. The Edward with parents Wm and Mary Ann is still with his parents in 1891 in Attercliffe cum Darnall, whilst the best candidate for your Edward is in Wales already.

[Merry]

You mean post 3! Thanks.

Sorry, I guessed!

[kiterunner]

Thankyou Kiterunner & Merry. If the record of the birth is the one my aunt seems to think it is, why the different names of the Birth & marriage cert,

If it is that one, then it could be a mistake on one or other, or he didn't know what his father's name was, or it is his stepfather's name (or some other relative who was like a father to him.) But it could be that that isn't his birth cert at all and that his birth was registered under some other name, or not registered at all, or registered but didn't make it onto the index.

[Merry]

I meant the cert probably belongs to a child who isn't your Edward, because he has the wrong father. The Edward with parents Wm and Mary Ann is still with his parents in 1891 in Attercliffe cum Darnall, whilst the best candidate for your Edward is in Wales already.

And also William, the father of that Edward, is still alive in 1901. So he clearly isn't your Edward, but is the 1876 cert his and not your Edward's? Probably.

[Merry]

The most likely scenario is that your Edward was illegitimate and registered under his father's surname which we don't know.

[Zoemcdougall]

Sorry Merry, just getting a bit confused with all this, must me my age. or my 2 lively child adling my brain!!!
Will read through all the replies again, So as I have to possible death entry for an Edward Jones, the possible Birth Entries is where I am getting confused with.

Sorry for being a pest!

[Zoemcdougall]

Sorry Merry crossed posted, didn't see you last reply until after I send my last reply to you

[kiterunner]

I don't suppose this will help, but who were the witnesses on his marriage cert, Zoe?

[kiterunner]

The most likely scenario is that your Edward was illegitimate and registered under his father's surname which we don't know.

Or his father's surname was Jones but Edward was registered under his mother's surname which we don't know?

[Merry]

Or his father's surname was Jones but Edward was registered under his mother's surname which we don't know?

Indeed!!

[Zoemcdougall]

Witnesses on cert are Ann Jones, & a William Jones

[kiterunner]

And they could be related to either Edward or his bride, couldn't they?

[Zoemcdougall]

The Ann Jones on the Cert I am thinking could be his wife's mother as her name was Ann,

[Zoemcdougall]

Just reading back through my posts, why would Edward put his name as Edward Jones on the 1901 but Edward H Jones on the 1911 census?

[Merry]

Because he fancied having a middle initial/middle name, or because he thought he once had a middle name or 1001 other reasons.

I was going to ask if his signature matches well between the 1899 marriage cert and the 1911 census (apart from the H!), but you will only have his actual signature for the marriage if you got a copy of the original marriage entry from the local reg office or from the parish register (if it was a church wedding).

[Merry]

If you think your Edward died in the Rhyl sub-district of St Asaph then this should be the entry you need:

http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/pda.cgi?date=1956&county=northwales&reference=FA%3ARHYL%2FA18%2FE166&file=J&pos=2019&area=FA

the other Edward died in St Asaph sub-district.

[Zoemcdougall]

I only have a copy of his marriage cert, should I try and obtain an original so I can see if his handwriting matches, My dad apparently was with him when he died in hospital, but couldn't remember the hospital seemed to it was The War Memorial Hospital in Rhyl, the only hospitals I know of in Rhyl are Glan Clwyd, or the Royal Alexandra.

[Merry]

Sounds like that death reg will be the one then.

[Merry]

In the past I have managed to get a copy of the original signature for nothing from the local registrar as I could prove I did have a copy marriage cert already which I had paid for. I don't know if they would be so accommodating now, but it wouldn't hurt to ask!

This is who you would need to contact:

Superintendent Registrar, Llandrindod Wells Register Office, The Gwalia, Ithon Road, Llandrindod Wells, Powys. LD1 6AA. UK
01597 826782
[email protected]

and this is their ref for the marriage:

Marriage Certificate
Powys - Newtown : NEWTOWN/22/76

You know the rest!!

[Merry]

This is probably the hospital (from The National Archives hospital database)

Name: Prince Edward War Memorial Hospital
Address: Grange Road Rhyl
Foundation: Year 1923
Closed: Yes
Closure year: 1973

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Merry I will write a letter to see if I can get a copy of the cert to see if the signature matches, thankyou for the link for his death cert too, will send off for that too.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou also for the infi on the war memorial hospital, didn't know it was situated on Grange Road, been passed Grange Road many times in the past. you learn new things everyday!!

[Merry]

Thankyou Merry I will write a letter to see if I can get a copy of the cert to see if the signature matches, thankyou for the link for his death cert too, will send off for that too.

Send a scan of the one you already have, as proof! If they say they can't provide a photocopy because the register is too damaged or too fat to go in the copier suggest they make a tracing of the sig - that worked for me at Bristol Reg Office!

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Merry, Will try that.

[Zoemcdougall]

Hello Again, after a very long search I have now got a copy of My Great Grandfathers Death Cert, all that is is eluding me now is his birth cert!!.

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

In 1901 he and his wife are in Llanwnnog. In 1891 there is a servant called Edward Jones aged 18 b Sheffield living at Tregynon which is less than five miles away. I would think this is fairly likely to be your Edward.

Just looking over the replies to my thread, I was wondering should I order this birth cert for this Edward in the hope this is my great grandfather, and where would I find the ref number for this.

Zoe:)

[Merry]

Just looking over the replies to my thread, I was wondering should I order this birth cert for this Edward in the hope this is my great grandfather, and where would I find the ref number for this.

Zoe:)

The problem is I think we have eliminated the various possible birth registrations for people called Edward Jones who were registered in Sheffield district (ie we have proved they belong to different Edward Joneses). That leaves us with the two comments in Posts #40 and #44. :(:(:(

[kiterunner]

There are quite a few with Edward as a middle name, though. But it could take a long time to sort all those out!

[Zoemcdougall]

I was just looking at his Wedding cert at the time of his marriage it states he was living in Tregynon, and with looking over replies seeing the one of the replies from about an Edward Jones in Tregynon, I was hoping this could be my Edward. or may be I should just give up looking?

[kiterunner]

Never give up! Yes, that could well be your Edward in Tregynon, but unfortunately that still doesn't lead us to his birth registration.

I know this father has the wrong name, but just thinking of that middle initial H that your Edward gave himself at one time, we should try to eliminate this family from our enquiries:
1881 census 21 Bristol Street, Northampton
Henry Jones Head M 34 Bricklayer's lab Bedford
Hannah Jones Wife M 39 Derby
Edward Jones Son 7 Sheffield
Sarah J Jones Daughter 12 Derby Cripple from birth
Rose Jones Daughter 4 months Northampton.

I've not found them on the 1891 census in England or Wales yet.

[Zoemcdougall]

Not that this has any bearing on trying to find his birth cert, on his death cert it has just got him down as Edward Jones.

[Zoemcdougall]

Kiterunner, what would you suggest I do to try and find his birth entry.

Zoe

[kiterunner]

You could ask your aunt if she can remember anything he may have said about his family, did he ever mention any brothers or sisters, for instance.

[kiterunner]

In the meantime, can anyone find anything on that Jones family from post #65, because I can't find any of them on any other census? There is a birth registration for a Florence Rose Jones Jan-Mar 1881 Northampton which is probably Rose, but since we don't even know if it's the right family yet, I wouldn't want to suggest getting that certificate to see what Hannah's maiden name is.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have ask her in the past, but all I have got from her is that she thinks he was even an orphan or brought in a workhouse, but won't tell me why she thinks this. She gave me a birth entry ref which I think I have put on here already, that she believes is her grandfather's but I'm not sure this, but anything is possible. which I think I have put on here already. His youngest daughter is still alive in her 90's but she doesn't seem to know much about her father as her son is asking me for help, and as you know I am struggling to find anything on him.

[Zoemcdougall]

I want to thank Kiterunner & Merry with trying to help me with my search for info on My great grandfather, going to give up on looking for info on him, I think I have resigned myself to never finding much about his life when he was younger.

Zoe

[Merry]

In the meantime, can anyone find anything on that Jones family from post #65, because I can't find any of them on any other census? There is a birth registration for a Florence Rose Jones Jan-Mar 1881 Northampton which is probably Rose, but since we don't even know if it's the right family yet, I wouldn't want to suggest getting that certificate to see what Hannah's maiden name is.

I've been going round and round with that family and found nothing as yet.

[marquette]

Don't give up on him Zoe, you will one day find more about him, from the most unexpected places.

Have you checked the newspapers to see if he had an obituary which might have confirmed anything about his life ?

Could he have ever been mentioned in a newspaper for anything during his life - school achievements, letter to the editor of the paper, donating to a good cause. Lots of little things used to get published in the local papers.

Also if he might have been born in the workhouse, or put in an orphanage, you could look for their records, maybe not available today, but in the future they may become available.

So, put Edward Jones on the "too hard" pile for a while and then have another look for him.

Best of luck

Di

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi Di,

just been speaking to my dad, he said there was once an article in the local paper that he had given away a piece of land to the local cricket club, as for his obituary I wouldn't know where to start to look for that. whether it would have been in the local paper where died in Rhyl or local to where he lived in Minffordd. or even if he left a will.

Zoe

[kiterunner]

or even if he left a will.


I can find that out, if you give me the date and place of his death.

[Zoemcdougall]

18th Jan 1956 The General Hospital in St Asaph, but lived in Pendryndeudraeth,Minffordd

[kiterunner]

National Probate Calendar 1956:
JONES Edward of Trem Tecwyn Tyddyn Llwyn-terrace Minffordd Merionethshire died 18 January 1956 at The General Hospital St Asaph Probate Bangor 16 February to William Jones farmer. Effects £871 10s.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou kiterunner , would I be able to get a copy of this, How would I go about finding his obituary? like Marguette mentions in post 73#.

[kiterunner]

You can order a copy of the will from the Probate Service. Details are on here:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills

As for an obituary, you would most likely need to visit the local history library for the area or wherever there are microfilmed copies of the local newspaper.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kite runner

[kiterunner]

Have you tried asking for help on the Sheffield Indexers website, Zoe?

Sheffield Indexers Forum (http://pub11.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=907514572&frmid=22&msgid=0)

And a link to their main home page:
http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/

[Zoemcdougall]

I didn't even know there was Sheffield indexer forum. Kiterunner.

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi kiterunner, I have put a post on the Sheffield indexers forum like you suggested

Thankyou

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi,

I have been on the Sheffield Indexers kiterunner suggested, they too think there could that the answer lies in Wales for parents, they are still searching, one person suggested there could be a link with 1891 wales were Edward is living with the Corfield's. also mentions could there be a link with a sarah jones who married a William Corfield, they think the name on Edward's marriage cert with Edward being the name of the father as a red herring.

[Merry]

one person suggested there could be a link with 1891 wales were Edward is living with the Corfield's. also mentions could there be a link with a sarah jones who married a William Corfield,

It's unfortunate there are two Edward Jones entries in Wales b Sheffield in 1891 and the one living with the Corfields is just the more likely to be your man because their address was nearer to Edward's home in 1901. Of course it's possible that both 1891 Edward Jones b Sheffield are the same person!

I'm not convinced that you can place much weight on any surname marrying a Jones in Wales to help to prop up a theory! Have you been able to trace William Corfield and Sarah Jones?

[Merry]

I presume this is the marriage?

Marriages Dec 1875
CORFIELD William Llanfyllin 11b 425
JONES Sarah Llanfyllin 11b 425

[Zoemcdougall]

all I found was the marriage of William & Sarah. and that's it.

[kiterunner]

On the 1881 census William Corfield (age 32, born Montgomery) and his wife Sarah (age 26, born Llanfair) are living in Tregynon and they have two sons with them, Richard David age 4 born Newtown, and William H age 3 born Tregynon. So it looks unlikely that either of them is a parent of Edward Jones.

[Zoemcdougall]

ok thanks kiterunner, the search for Edward Jones continues, although I think I should just give up?

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Zoe, I'm interested to see that on the Sheffield Indexers forum, you state that your research has proved that your Edward was not the son of Henry and Hannah (see post #65 on this thread). Can you tell us how you have proved that, please? (Apart from it not matching the father's name on his marriage certificate.)

[Zoemcdougall]

when I was searching for him on rootschat last year said it couldn't be his parents. but Can.t remember their reasoning behind it. will go back on there & check my thread

[kiterunner]

I've just been reading through it and I'm not convinced that it was proved that wasn't the right family. (They said that Henry wasn't his father at one point, but they still thought that Hannah could be his mother and Henry his step-father.) The birth registration they gave you for the possible sister, Rose, was the wrong one but I think this is the correct one:

Florence Rose Jones Jan-Mar 1881 Northampton vol 3b p 91.

So you could try ordering that, and see if the parents are Henry and Hannah, what was Hannah's maiden name, then we might be able to trace Hannah back and see if Edward is her son. Also of course it is possible that Rose's father's name could be Edward Henry or Henry Edward on her birth cert although he is Henry on the census.

[Zoemcdougall]

I will order the cert for Rose, Kterunner,

[kiterunner]

Let us know when it arrives, Zoe!

[Merry]

Fingers crossed something comes of this :)

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou will keep you post.

[kiterunner]

Zoe, I've been reading through the Sheffield Indexers forum thread and I don't want to register on there just to post this, but perhaps you would like to post a link to this post on there or copy and paste the following so that Brian on there can stop worrying about the other possible marriage for Edward Jones and Mary Jane Jones:

GRO marriage index Jun 1898 Llanfyllin vol 11b p 357:
Davies Mary
Edwards Robert
Hughes David
Owen Jane

GRO marriage index Jun 1898 Llanfyllin vol 11b p 358:
Jones Edward
Jones Mary J
Lloyd Mary
Pryce John

GRO marriage index Jun 1898 Llanfyllin vol 11b p 359:
Edwards Margaret Ann
Evans Thomas
Jones David
Watkins Jane


North Wales BMD marriages which also shows all 4 names for a page number and you have to match the couples:
Llanfyllin Civil Marriage 1898
Reference Fyllin/14/24
Jones Edward
Hughes David
Lloyd Mary
Owen Jane

Reference Fyllin 14/25
Pryce John
Edwards Margaret A
Evans Thomas
Jones Mary J

So the above shows us that the Edward Jones and Mary Jane Jones who got married in Llanfyllin in 1898 did not marry each other - that Edward Jones married Mary Lloyd, and that Mary Jane Jones married John Pryce.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have posted your link on the Sheffield forum, Kiterunner,
do I have the right marriage cert?

zoe

[kiterunner]

Yes, Zoe, thanks.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have ordered the Cert, will let you know when it comes back.

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi, I have just rec'd Florence Rose's birth cert, b, 29th november 1880, 2 Bristol street Northhampton, Father's name Henry, mother's name Hannah Ann Jones (formally Williams) Looks like Hannah couldn't write as where it says Signiture, description & residence of informant, it has "X" the mark of Hannah Ann Jones mother. 2 Bristol Street Northampton

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Brilliant, it is the family we found on the census. Yes, if there is an X it usually means they couldn't write their name. At least we have a maiden name for Hannah now, so we might stand a chance of tracing her back.

[Zoemcdougall]

What should I do now,

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Wait for us to have a look through the censuses. Sorry, I had to go out just after you posted up the info; I'll see if I can find anything now.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kiterunner.

[kiterunner]

There is a Sarah Jane Williams birth registered Apr-Jun 1869 Derby who could be the right Sarah. This birth registration is not the Sarah Jane Williams who is age 3 on the 1871 census with parents William and Sarah Jane, because that one was baptised Apr 1868, according to FamilySearch.

But I haven't found the right Sarah on the 1871 census yet!

[kiterunner]

But there is a Sarah J Williams on the 1871 census age 1 born Derby with parents William and Charlotte, who is probably the one who that birth registration belongs to. Bother!

[kiterunner]

Just to save us from having to keep looking back at post #65, this is the family in 1881:
21 Bristol Street, Northampton
Henry Jones Head M 34 Bricklayer's lab Bedford
Hannah Jones Wife M 39 Derby
Edward Jones Son 7 Sheffield
Sarah J Jones Dau 12 Derby cripple from birth
Rose Jones Dau 4 months Northampton.

[kiterunner]

I've found a possible Hannah Williams in Derby in 1851, age 10 born Derby, mother Ann, widow 39 born Ireland, and sisters Ann 14 and Mary 12, and brother William 7, all born Derby. Then in 1861 Ann sr is married to a Joseph Hampton and they have Ann jr, Mary and William with them, but not Hannah. Then in 1871 Joseph Hampton is unmarried! This isn't really helping! Williams is almost as difficult a name as Jones!

[kiterunner]

Also a possible marriage for Henry and Hannah 9 Aug 1874 at Hanley St John, Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire, but FamilySearch has her age as 21 and his as 26, so her age would be way out if that's them. They have fathers' names Robert Jones and Edward Williams.

[kiterunner]

That Williams family from 1851 in 1841:
Drury Lane, Derby
William Williams 30 Publican Y
Ann Williams 30 Ireland
Ann Williams 4 Y
Mary Williams 2 Y.

At least we know now that if this is the right family for Hannah, the 1874 marriage is the wrong one.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kiterunner, do you think we'll find a link that will connected Hannah as Edward's mother.

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Hope so, just trying to think what to look for...

[Zoemcdougall]

This side of my tree I have found the hardest, due to not knowing much about Edward, but I do appreciate all the help you are giving me.

[kiterunner]

Still struggling to find anything to prove it's your Edward's family, but I have found a likely death for Sarah - Sarah Jane Williams death Oct-Dec 1881 Northampton, age 12. I don't think the death certificate is likely to have anything to help though. But if it is her, then we know (a) not to look for her on later censuses and (b) she is Hannah's daughter from before the marriage to Henry (if there was one), which looked pretty likely anyway. Oh, and (c) that her middle name was Jane.

[kiterunner]

One thing that comes to mind is that if you ever find yourself in Northampton, you could visit Northamptonshire Record Office and see if you can find school admission / discharge records for that Edward Jones who was at Bristol Street, age 7, in 1881. It might have more information about his family plus it might show how long he lived there. I had a similar problem in my tree that I was stuck on for years and only solved it when ancestry put the London school admissions and discharges online. Of course it wouldn't be so easy with Northampton as there won't be a name index so you would have to guess which school(s) he would have gone to and might have to try a few. If there were separate infants and junior schools then you might find him starting at infant school around 1878-9 and junior school around 1880-1. If you did find a school admission record for him it should give his exact date of birth; also it could be that his name changes from Williams to Jones, you never know!

Also if there is a Northampton school record for Florence Rose, we would know that they stayed in Northampton for a few years at least.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thanks Kiterunner, one day I'd hope I'd find out more about my elusive Great grandfather, his youngest daughter is still alive in her 90's, but won't talk about her father. So may be I won't find out anymore than I already have.

[kiterunner]

If only we knew which workhouse he might have been in, you could try workhouse records, but we don't even know which county to look at.

[Zoemcdougall]

Do you think there could be a link between Edward & Rose, Is it worth me keeping the cert I had for Rose.

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Definitely! I do think she could be his sister. We just need some info to prove it.

[Zoemcdougall]

What do you think to the idea of me getting Sarah Jane's birth cert to see if she had the same father as Rose (Henry) or of the name of Edwards father, name of Edward, (Supposedly)?

Zoe

[kiterunner]

If we could find the right birth registration, it might be worth ordering her birth cert, but that one I found looks unlikely to be the right one because there was another Sarah who it probably belonged to. I don't think her father would be Henry. It could well be that there is no father's name on her birth certificate anyway - if her birth was registered. One problem is that with the birthplace just being Derby, it could mean the city of Derby or it could just mean the county of Derbyshire.

[Zoemcdougall]

if we find her birth record I'll order it, then that just leaves Edward. sorry for asking you for help with My elusive Edward & his family,

[kiterunner]

Of course, ideally we would find Edward Williams' birth registration in Sheffield, and a marriage between Henry Jones and Hannah Ann Williams, but I haven't managed to find either of those yet.

[Zoemcdougall]

thanks with helping me kiterunner. do you think I should ask on the Sheffield indexers if they could find an Edward Williams born in Sheffield. with Hannah Ann Williams, ?

[kiterunner]

Must be worth a try, Zoe.

[Zoemcdougall]

Will post on there today, so do I post on now looking for an Edward Williams born in Sheffield, mother Hannah Ann Williams, then a possible marriage between Hannah & Henry ?.

[kiterunner]

I don't suppose they are likely to find the marriage as we have no reason to think they got married in Sheffield. The birth, yes.

Also I just thought - there is a tiny chance that Sarah's death certificate could show her father's name. Very unlikely, but you never know. More likely it will just show her mother's name or her stepfather's. If you do want to order it then this is the info:
Deaths Oct-Dec 1881
Sarah Jane Williams age 12, district, Northampton, volume 3b page 62.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kiterunner, I have posted on the Sheffield Indexers but no replies as yet. am i right in Thinking when looking at the 1881 census, Henry was born in Bedford?

[kiterunner]

That's right, Zoe.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have just had a look for Hannah Williams, on an 1871 census there is an Ann Williams born 1847, in yspytty Derbyshire, but residing in Wales in 1871,
Piece5696, folio 59, p25, maybe totally wrong, just with the Derbyshire / wales I thought I woould ask you what you thought.

[Zoemcdougall]

Just checked on Sheffield indexers, had one reply, a birth of Sarah Jane Jones, born last qtr of 1868 in Shardlow Derbyshire Vol 7b pg 342?

[kiterunner]

My guess would be that yspytty Derbyshire is probably a mistranscription for Denbighshire - I will have a look at the image when I get back from shopping if nobody else has checked it by then.

As for Sarah Jane, it seems unlikely that her birth would be registered as Jones and her death as Williams and I doubt that Henry Jones was her father anyway, but who knows. I'll see if I can rule that birth out when I get back too.

[kiterunner]

Yes, that Hannah Williams in Wales was born in Denbyshire, i.e. Denbighshire.

[Merry]

That 1871 placename should say Yspytty Ifan, Denbighshire. It's spelled incorrectly and also mistranscribed!

[Merry]

Sorry, I went and poured a cup of tea before I clicked Submit!! lol

[kiterunner]

Just checked on Sheffield indexers, had one reply, a birth of Sarah Jane Jones, born last qtr of 1868 in Shardlow Derbyshire Vol 7b pg 342?

I haven't managed to rule her out, but Shardlow district included part of Nottinghamshire and part of Leicestershire as well as part of Derbyshire, so it could be that this Sarah wasn't actually born in Derbyshire anyway. I can't see the birth in the Derbyshire BMD index on Findmypast but I don't know whether it's complete or not.

[kiterunner]

Also, just so it isn't left as a loose end, I found a likely marriage for that Hannah Williams from post 109, to a Henry Fowkes in 1860, with her age 20 and father's name William, and Henry Fowkes and his wife Hannah are together on the 1881 census, so it doesn't look likely that the Hannah I found on the 1851 is the Hannah we're looking for. Back to square one with Hannah again...

[Zoemcdougall]

I have just looked on the sheffield indexers, they put the same as Kiterunner posted in post 110.

[kiterunner]

I have just looked on the sheffield indexers, they put the same as Kiterunner posted in post 110.
i.e. the marriage in 1874 at Hanley, Stoke on Trent, where Hannah is about 10 years too young (according to FamilySearch), compared to the 1881 census.

[Zoemcdougall]

ok Kiterunner, Rose' mother seems as elusive as My great grandfather

[kiterunner]

I suppose if you have more money to spend on it, you could order that marriage certificate and see if the age really does say 21, and also if it gives any clues as to whether it is the right couple or not (after all, it could always be the census that has her age wrong?)

[Zoemcdougall]

will order the cert, also the sarah jane born in Shardlow, could that be Edwards sister.

[kiterunner]

I doubt very much it is her but I suppose I can't be sure.

[Zoemcdougall]

on the sheffield indexers one has put another suggestion Edward Augustus Williams b 1873 Bradfield, they say if the edward I am looking was born in Sheffield he wasn't registered there.

[kiterunner]

That Edward Augustus Williams died in the same quarter that his birth was registered, Zoe.

[Zoemcdougall]

Ok so can definitely rule that one out then, thanks kiterunner.

[Zoemcdougall]

I know this probably totally wrong but Edward had been in a workhouse, just an idea that thought of could it have been in Northampton just going off the last child being born in that area, plus I don't know when Henry died, could Edward have been in the Southwell workhouse in Northamptonshire?

[kiterunner]

Southwell is in Nottinghamshire. Yes, he could have been in a workhouse in Northampton, but he could also have been in one in Yorkshire (where he was born), Derbyshire (where his mother was born), Bedfordshire (where his stepfather was born) or Montgomeryshire (where he turns up in 1891). Or whatever county his father was born in. Or wherever they moved to after Northampton. That's why I said we don't know what county's workhouse records to look at.

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi Zoe,

Looks like a dead end for Sheffield I am afraid.

What I would do is research the others and get them sorted away and maybe by that time something will have surfaced that proves one way or another that he was born here.

It doesn't look very promising though. The Council site that I gave you are the most reliable that is as long as he was registered. If not I dont know what can be done.

I did find two marriages that looked interesting.....

Henry Jones & Hannah Barker June qtr 1880 Northampton 3b 80.
Henry Jones & Hannah Williams Bangor 11b 693 Sep 1870.

The first marriage would certainly explain lots......
and would fit in with Florence Roses birth a few months later. Leaving the other two children to have fathers unknow
probably Williams.


I am afraid thats all I can suggest at this time.

(This was one of the replies on the Sheffield Indexers)

[Zoemcdougall]

How do I go about searching workhouse records, never done this before.

Zoe

[Merry]

Henry Jones & Hannah Barker June qtr 1880 Northampton 3b 80.


I got a bit excited about two Edward Barkers being born in Sheffield around 1873/4, but sadly they both seem to have died as babies. :(

[Merry]

This site has separate pages for each union and at the bottom of each page there is info on what records have survived and where they are kept:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/

[Merry]

Regarding the 1880 Jones/Barker marriage, I think this Henry Jones married Rosina Dunkley not Hannah Barker, as there is a young couple with those names (Henry/Rosina) in Northampton in 1881.

Marriages Jun 1880
Barker Hannah Northampton 3b 80
Deacon George Northampton 3b 80
DUNKLEY Rosina Northampton 3b 80
Jones Henry Northampton 3b 80

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Merry, I have started looking at the workhouse records, for Edward Jones but also looking Edward Williams, should I be looking for anything else, Because what I am not sure of is Rose' mother Hannah had the name formally Wiiliams before she married Henry, as we don't know if she was married before that to potentially Edwards father, should I take it Hannah's original surname is Williams. (Hope this makes sense).

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

I have just looked on the Yorkshire Workhouse record there was an Edward Barker on there, birth place Stamford bridge Yorkshire, (orphan)?

[kiterunner]

If Rose's birth certificate says mother's name Hannah Ann Jones, formerly Williams, then it should mean that her maiden name was Williams, yes. Also if she was married to someone else before she married Henry, it should say "late " whatever her first husband's surname was, for instance, "Jones, formerly Williams, late Smith" or whatever. But if she never married Henry and was actually still married to her first husband, she would be unlikely to mention him when registering Rose's birth! So it could be that Williams was her maiden name and she was married before, or it could be that Williams was her first husband's name but she didn't mention that.

If you are going to Northamptonshire Record Office to look at workhouse records, I would very strongly recommend that you look for school records for Edward and Florence Rose while you are there because I reckon you are more likely to find school records for them than workhouse records.

I would also very strongly advise you to look at baptisms while you are there because it is possible that Hannah didn't get Edward baptised when he was a baby n Sheffield, but after they moved to Northampton. Possibly at the same time as Florence Rose was baptised. And if you find a baptism of a child over 1 year old, it will very often have an exact date of birth (though not always correct!) If you ask the record office staff which parish Bristol Street was in around 1881 you will know which church's records to look at first. Then there is always the chance there might be baptisms for more children in the family, perhaps after 1881, or perhaps children who died before the 1881 census.

Also you could look for a burial for Sarah Jane.

[Zoemcdougall]

This also probably wrong, but Genealogy doesn't come naturally to me, just thinking if Hannah's name was Williams then Barker Then Jones, could you look at these for me please.

Hannah b abt 1843 belper derbyshire residing in Sheffield husband Edward, piece 4697, folio 55, pg 45,

Hannah Barker piece 4674, folio 53, pg 2, residing in Sheffield.

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

Edward Barker, Sheffield, 1st qtr, Volume 9c pg 358

[Merry]

But the Jones/Baker marriage didn't happen. Your Sheffield contact paired up that couple without making sure they did marry each other.

The two Edward Barker children who were reg for birth in Sheffield both died as babies.

See posts #154 and #152

[Merry]

Going back to my last post, I should say the Barker/Jones marriage doesn't appear to be the right bride and groom together - can't be 100% without the cert!!

Hannah b abt 1843 belper derbyshire residing in Sheffield husband Edward, piece 4697, folio 55, pg 45,

Hannah Barker piece 4674, folio 53, pg 2, residing in Sheffield.


Which censuses are these, please?

[Zoemcdougall]

On 1881 census, one of them she is down as a visitor, could be totally wrong, one of them has an Edward Barker?

[kiterunner]

Surely the only reason we are looking at Hannah Barkers is because of that possible Henry Jones / Hannah Barker marriage in 1880? (although those two probably didn't marry each other anyway.) So she wouldn't still be Barker in 1881.

[Zoemcdougall]

Sorry Kiterunner, meant to put 1871, with my 2 young boys I think my brain is adled !!!

[Zoemcdougall]

Kite runner & Merry, do you think the post I did on #159, could be of interest?

[Merry]

Edward Barker, Sheffield, 1st qtr, Volume 9c pg 358

That child and this one:

Births Jun 1874
BARKER Edward Sheffield 9c 414

both seem to have died

Deaths Jun 1874
BARKER Edward 0 Sheffield 9c 241

Deaths Sep 1874
BARKER Edward 1 Sheffield 9c 233


And in any case, it seems unlikely that Henry Jones married Hannah Barker.

[Merry]

Also, these 1871 census refs....

Hannah b abt 1843 belper derbyshire residing in Sheffield husband Edward, piece 4697, folio 55, pg 45,

This couple are together in 1891.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=CULRG12_4305_4307-0478&fn=Edward&ln=Barker&st=r&ssrc=&pid=24554681

Hannah Barker piece 4674, folio 53, pg 2, residing in Sheffield.

This one is single, so it's not obvious why she would become nee Hannah Williams later?

[Zoemcdougall]

Do you think it would be worth me ordering the marriage, Merry, from your comment on post 161,

[Zoemcdougall]

[QUOTE=Merry;190065]Going back to my last post, I should say the Barker/Jones marriage doesn't appear to be the right bride and groom together - can't be 100% without the cert!!

Merry Which are you saying about, and do think It would be worth me ordering it,

Kiterunner I have ordered the cert you suggested about Sarah Jane.

[kiterunner]

Kiterunner I have ordered the cert you suggested about Sarah Jane.

Is that her death certificate, Zoe? I will be interested to see what it says, though as I said, it may not have any information to help. But of course it might.

[Zoemcdougall]

yes her death cert, Kiterunner.

[Zoemcdougall]

please can you help me with the reference no, for the marriage that Merry has mentioned, But I know she said can't be 100% sure this is the right Marriage without the cert, but I am willing to try anything if it helps trace my Great grandfather, thankyou your is truly appreciated.

Zoe

[kiterunner]

The only marriage that I can see that Merry has mentioned is one of the ones that you mentioned first, Zoe, in post #150, but Merry has said she doesn't think that the two people mentioned married each other.

[Merry]

I'm about 99% certain Henry Jones married the other bride from the four names at that 1880 marriage. If you look for a Rosina and Henry Jones in 1881 you will find a couple in their early 20's in Northampton. I think this is the 1880 groom with the other bride (ie he didn't marry Hannah Barker, he married Rosina Dunkley).

I hope I've said that correctly as I don't have time to read back and am on hols in Mallorca at the mo. Above is just from memory!

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Merry, hope you have a lovely holiday,

[Zoemcdougall]

I am taking your advice Kiterunner, I am going to the Northampton Records office at the end of June as I am off for week, also I have started looking into the workhouse records, But do I look for an Edward with the name Jones, Williams or Barker? also been looking at records for Edward H Jones, one I did think was interesting, was an Edward H Jones, b,1873 Rawmarsh Sheffield, parents Edward & Hannah.

[kiterunner]

I am taking your advice Kiterunner, I am going to the Northampton Records office at the end of June as I am off for week, also I have started looking into the workhouse records, But do I look for an Edward with the name Jones, Williams or Barker? also been looking at records for Edward H Jones, one I did think was interesting, was an Edward H Jones, b,1873 Rawmarsh Sheffield, parents Edward & Hannah.

I would say Jones or Williams - we have no reason to think he would be a Barker.


That Edward H Jones sounds interesting, Zoe - where did you find that, please?

[Zoemcdougall]

On the family search site, I am probably clutching at straws, but just thought it was interesting due to the names of the parents.

[kiterunner]

Sorry, I can't see it, Zoe - what exactly do I do to find it?

[Zoemcdougall]

Kiterunner, it can't be him either, just looked on Ancestry, that Edward is still living in England in 1901, of which we know the Edward I am looking for was in Wales by then, but there are a few others on there that I could try.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have found 1 Edward Williams b sheffield 1877, vol 9c pg 526, I know on his death it is down that he was 83, which would make it that he was born in 1873, but on the 1901 1911 censuses it has his year of birth entered are different, ( I know on his death cert he is Edward Jones)

but been looking for an Edward with his mothers maiden of Williams, as we think Henry Wasn't Edwards father, but his mother could still be Hannah.

[kiterunner]

If your Edward is the one who is in Northampton on the 1881 census, his age in 1881 was 7 so he was born about 1873-4. If that one isn't your Edward, then we wouldn't be looking for him with the surname Williams anyway, as that Northampton family is where we got the name Williams from. So the Edward Williams born in 1877 won't be yours.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thanks Kiterunner,I was just trying different avenues, other than going to the Northampton Records office, which I am going at the end of June,what could I do in the meantime, and what searches I could try.

[Zoemcdougall]

Birth cert for Sarah J Williams, possibles

pg 388 7b
pg 287 9c
pg 390 9c

[kiterunner]

See posts #106-7 for my thoughts on the first of those possible birth registrations (Apr-Jun 1869 Derby 7b 388).

The third one you have posted is for the district of Sheffield, which didn't include any of Derbyshire so unlikely. Also there is a death in Sheffield district in the following quarter for a Sarah Jane Williams age 0.

The second one - Apr-Jun 1868 Ecclesall Bierlow 9c 287. I think will be the Sarah Jane Williams who was baptised 19 Apr 1868 at Dore, parents William and Sarah.

[Zoemcdougall]

Should I order the birth cert, pg 388 7b

[kiterunner]

Up to you, Zoe. As I said, I don't think it will be the right one, but can't be completely sure.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have looking at the workhouse records for Derbyshire & Northampton no luck, there. now trying in sheffield, then I'll try mongomeryshire.

[Zoemcdougall]

I was just wondering if what my Aunt thinks is right, that he could have been brought up in a workhouse or an orphanage, where would I find out about any orphanages and if any records would have been kept, I'm making way through the work house records nothing as yet.

[Zoemcdougall]

Nothing on the workhouse records for an Edward Jones or Williams.

[kiterunner]

I didn't realise all workhouse records were indexed online! I thought you would have to go to the record office to search them. Can I ask where the online indexes are, please?

Not sure about orphanages, sorry.

[Margaret in Burton]

I didn't realise all workhouse records were indexed online! I thought you would have to go to the record office to search them. Can I ask where the online indexes are, please?

Not sure about orphanages, sorry.

I don't believe they are. I would have thought that the appropriate County Record Office was the place to look.

[Zoemcdougall]

I put my hands up, as I had never looked for workhouse records before and wasn't sure what I was doing, I was using the link Merry so kindly gave me Workhouse.org. and I just assumed you typed in the county in the search bar, sorry for my naivity,

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

Please could someone one look at this for me, Volume 9d, pg19, just to see if this could be my Edward

[kiterunner]

What is it, please? A birth, marriage, or death, and what year and quarter? Also what surname?

[Zoemcdougall]

Edward Jones birth jun qtr 1973 Yorkshire

[kiterunner]

Assuming you mean 1873, there is no Edward Jones birth in that quarter with volume 9d page 19. Maybe you mean the Jul-Sep quarter of 1873? There is an Edward Jones birth in that quarter with that volume and page number but in York district which is nowhere near Sheffield.

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi Kiterunner, Could this be the possible Birth entry for Hannah Williams,
Derby District q/e Dec 1841 vol 19 page 462.

In answer to your last reply, post 197, I know it was York, but I was just widening my search as the Sheffield Indexers didn't think that he was born in Sheffield, but of course i know there is the chance his birth wasn't registered.

I had an email off the Daughter in law of Edwards youngest daughter Edna, she is trying to get info from her about Edward but hasn't given much away about him, only bits I already know, I have asked if Edna knew of any siblings & what his parents names were, but don't hold out much hope of getting any answers.

[kiterunner]

I think it is more likely that his birth wasn't registered or was registered under a different surname than that he was born in York. I can't see any reason for choosing York over any other place?

I don't think we have enough information about Hannah Williams to start looking for her birth certificate yet. But the Williams family I looked at before, living in Derby, who turned out most probably not to be the right ones, don't have a Hannah on the 1841 census and then have one on the 1851 census with age given as 10, so I suspect that the birth registration you found belongs to that Hannah. See posts #109 and #138 on this thread.

[Zoemcdougall]

how can I research Hannah further, could give me some research tips,

[kiterunner]

I think you said you have ordered Sarah Jane's death certificate? So I would think best to wait until that arrives and see if it gives any clues.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have now got the death cert for Sarah, d. 28th Jan union workhouse Northampton 1881, No Parents names on it.

Now would Like to find her birth record, obviously I would love to find Edwards too.

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Hopefuuly the workhouse records at Northamptonshire Archives / Record Office will have more info.

[Zoemcdougall]

Do you think we'd be able to find a possible birth entry for Sarah,

[kiterunner]

Not really, because we don't have any more information to go on than we did before.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kate,

[Zoemcdougall]

I rang the Northampton records office yesterday as I am going on the 7th August, just in preparation for my visit as I have never done this before, what records should I ask to look at, other than workhouse records admissions & discharge, school records, but they tell there are not that many availible, burial records for Billing Road cemetary, is there anything else I could ask to look at that may help me find info on the family in Bristol street.

I have been looking for Edward with the surnmae Williams & Jones & with H as the middle name. but not come up with anything concrete, also should I just look for just the year of birth 1873? then there is the other thing of where he was actually Registered in Sheffield. the Mystery of Edward lives on!!

[kiterunner]

Yes, baptisms - like I said in post #157, look for baptisms for all the children as they could have been baptised at any age so it's possible that Sarah and / or Edward could have been baptised in Northampton even though they weren't born there. Also there could be baptisms for other children of the family if there were others who died young that we don't know about.

Also have a look at the street directories to see if Henry Jones is listed and if so, what year does he first appear, what year does he disappear, who is listed at the address before and after him, does he move house? (If there are school records and / or baptisms available for the children, there may be other addresses on those too.)

[Zoemcdougall]

I order the marriage cert of Hannah & Hanry in 1874, it does give their ages as 21 for Hannah & 25 for Henry.

[kiterunner]

Are you saying you've received the marriage certificate and they did marry each other, Zoe? If so, can you post up the full details, please?

[Zoemcdougall]

I have received a Marriage Cert for Hannah to Henry.

Married 9th August 1874, Henry Jones to Hannah Williams. ages 25 & 21,

Henry residing at 43 Broom Street, Hannah 42 Plough Street,

Father's names Robert Jones & Edward Williams.

Robert Jones' occupation was Miner, Edward Williams' was Engineer.

[kiterunner]

What town and county was this marriage in, please, Zoe? And what is Henry's occupation on the marriage certificate? And who were the witnesses?

Edit - presumably it is that Hanley, Stoke on Trent one that is mentioned earlier on in this thread as being unlikely to be the right one because of Hannah's age.

The Henry and Hannah who are in Northampton on the 1881 census are age 34 (Henry) and 39 (Hannah) so Hannah's age on that marriage certificate is a lot younger than our Hannah would be.

[Zoemcdougall]

Yes it is the one in Stoke on Trent, Henry's occupation was a Collier I can only make out the name of 1 witness, Abraham Dutton.

[kiterunner]

It seems unlikely to be the same couple as the Northampton ones.

[Zoemcdougall]

You are probably right Kate, the search for elusive great grandfather Edward & his family goes on.

[Zoemcdougall]

Kate you were also right about the birth cert entry for Sarah Jane it was with Charlotte as her mother. I did find another possible birth entry for Sarah but I have mislaid my ancestry book that I wrote the reference number down.

[kiterunner]

Kate you were also right about the birth cert entry for Sarah Jane it was with Charlotte as her mother. I did find another possible birth entry for Sarah but I have mislaid my ancestry book that I wrote the reference number down.

Have you checked through this thread in case you posted it up on here somewhere?

[Zoemcdougall]

I have re read all the replies on my thread but don't think any match the reference number than I wrote down, hopefully I'll find my book soon, bet my little angels have got it.

[Zoemcdougall]

I went to the records office in Northampton yesterday, but didn't find anything that would help in my search for Edward. But it was a great experience.

[kiterunner]

That's a shame, Zoe.

[Zoemcdougall]

I was gutted but it wasn't. meant to be, but they were very friendly & helpful. I found it fascinating looking through the records though, they told me try the Northampton family history society & the national records in London.

[kiterunner]

So there were no baptisms for the Joneses, no school records for them, and no entries in the street directories? And no workhouse records for any of them? Maybe they were only in Northampton for a very short time then. If only we knew where they moved to!

[Zoemcdougall]

There was nothing, only that on one of the methodist baptism records their was a Florence but for some strange reason not all the entry was filled in so, I can't be sure it was his sister or not. the gentlemen helping me said with regards to the baptism records they don't hold all the collection, he said often that they were kept by the church or Chapel? also we don't know what religion he followed other than going off from his marriage cert to Mary. My dad said he may of changed his religion when he met Mary. could this be possible.

[Merry]

My dad said he may of changed his religion when he met Mary. could this be possible.

Unfortunately, just about anything is possible!

[Zoemcdougall]

I have contacted the Northampton family society, but haven't heard anything back yet. also need to contact the national archives in London, it's probably a long shot but hopefully worth a try.

[Merry]

I can't face reading back this whole thread! Is the Northampton family the right one?

[Zoemcdougall]

yes, well everything matches from the 1881 census

[Merry]

So, what's the current hitch?

Am I right in thinking you can't find the parents before or after 1881? Is there a marriage?

[kiterunner]

Merry, we don't know for sure whether the Northampton family is the right one but considering how mysterious they are, and how mysterious Edward is, it looks likely! You're right, we haven't found the parents before or after 1881 (see post #65 for the 1881 entry). And we haven't found a marriage for them.

The youngest child on the 1881 census, Florence Rose Jones, was born 29 Nov 1880 in Northampton and on her birth certificate it gives the parents' names as Henry Jones and Hannah Ann Jones formerly Williams. The eldest child, Sarah Jane, born about 1868 in Derby(which could mean Derbyshire) according to the 1881 census, died in 1881 and her death was registered with the surname Williams.

We were hoping that if Zoe went to Northamptonshire Record Office, she might find baptisms for some or all of the children (and possibly other children not on the census), or school records giving an exact date of birth for Edward, or workhouse records for some or all of the family (Sarah died in the workhouse) or street directories showing when the Jones family moved to Bristol Street and how long they lived there, but it seems there was nothing.

Trying to think of what else to try...

[Merry]

Thanks kate.

[Merry]

I've been wondering about these people:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=DBYRG10_3569_3573-0525&fn=Sarah&ln=Williams&st=r&ssrc=&pid=9433996

[Merry]

I see Hannah is a Hannah Ann like Mrs Jones:


Groom's Name: Thos. Williams
Groom's Birth Date: 1842
Groom's Age: 22
Bride's Name: Hannah Anne Bloore
Bride's Birth Date: 1841
Bride's Age: 23
Marriage Date: 04 Oct 1864
Marriage Place: Edensor, Stafford, England
Groom's Father's Name: Jno. Williams
Bride's Father's Name: George Bloore

Hannah Ann with her father and grandmother in 1851

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=DBYHO107_2145_2146-0607&fn=Hannah+Ann&ln=Bloor&st=d&ssrc=&pid=10486369

[kiterunner]

Hmm, they look possible, don't they? Apart from Sarah being a couple of years younger than you would expect.

So that Zoe can see what we're talking about, it is an 1871 census entry - 2 Normanton Road, Derby
William Clifford Head Widr 64 Engine Driver Unemployed Derbyshire Spondon
Thomas Williams Boarder Mar 29 Cordwainer Shropshire Nantwitch
Hannah A Do Boarder Mar 29 Derbyshire Shirley
Georgiana Do Boarder 6 Scholar Staffordshire Hanley
William Do Boarder 3 Scholar Derbyshire Derby
Sarah Do Boarder 3 wks Do Do

We need to see if we can find them in 1881 to rule them out.

[kiterunner]

Possible for William in 1881 - age 12, nephew of Eli and Ann Neath (or Meath?) in Mexborough, Yorkshire. Both Eli and Ann are born in Staffordshire. Likely marriage for them in 1872 in Doncaster but Ann's surname is Malpass so maybe this is not the right William after all.

Possible for Georgiana as a servant in Shirley Derbyshire but her birthplace is Lincolnshire.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, and there is a birth registration for Sarah Jane Williams Apr-Jun 1871 Derby!

[Merry]

Ooh, and there is a birth registration for Sarah Jane Williams Apr-Jun 1871 Derby!

Indeedy!!

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch has a baptism for a Mary Ann Williams 20 Feb 1870 Christ Church, Derby, parents Thomas and Hannah Ann. Her death is registered Apr-Jun 1870.

[Merry]

Sorry, I keep getting distracted by the 200m semi-finals!

[Merry]

Hannah Ann calls herself Williams in 1911 and is with her daughter, Georgina who is now Mrs George Bee.

Marriages Mar 1895

Bee George Ashborne 7b 765
Williams Georgina Ashborne 7b 765

Hannah is Hannah Ann Williams widow b Shirley Derbyshire on this 1911 census:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_16760_0591_03/56722118?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dhannah%26rs_8100 4011__date%3d0%26f17%3dshirley%26f18%3dderbyshire% 26prox%3d1%26db%3d1911england%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si% 3d0%26gss%3drfs%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

So, we need to trace her back and see if we can eliminate her (or otherwise!!)

[Merry]

Oooh, oooh, in 1891 I can't find Georgina Williams b Hanley Staffs b about 1865, but I have found a Georgina Jones b 1862 in Staffs Hanley living in Holywell Flintshire. Says she speaks English and Welsh. Off to see if she is a different person......

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6897&iid=FLNRG12_4603_4605-0554&fn=Georgina&ln=Jones&st=d&ssrc=&pid=1325651

[Merry]

Hmmm....can't decide about that Georgina - no birth reg, and only two much younger Georgina Jones' in 1871 and 1881, but the Flintshire one doesn't feel right for some reason.......

[Merry]

Struggling to find Hannah Ann in 1881, 1891 and 1901 unless she is Hannah Ann Jones in 1881. Knowing she is alive in 1911 isn't helping like it should lol

[kiterunner]

Just thought I should mention that Nantwich, where Thomas Williams says he was born, is in Cheshire, not Shropshire. There is a likely Thomas on the 1861 census in Hanley, Staffordshire, age 18, boot maker (much the same thing as cordwainer) with his mother Mary, and his birthplace is Cheshire Nantwich but his mother was born in Shropshire. Might help to know this if we are looking for him after 1871!

[kiterunner]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if this is the right William Williams in 1891 or not, so it could just be muddying the waters, but could at least be the same one that I found in 1881 (see post #234) because of having a relative called Eli:

10 Bloom St, Derby
Eli Price Head M 68 General Laborer Northamptonshire
Sarah " Wife M 71 Ireland
Joseph Hawkins Son M 39 General Laborer Derby
William Williams Grandson S 23 General Laborer Derby
John Flannery Lodger S 18 General Laborer Derby
Francis Hawkins Son 11 Scholar Derby.

I guess Francis is supposed to be Joseph's son, not Eli's!

In 1881 Eli Price's birthplace is Hull Yorkshire though so maybe not really from Northamptonshire.

[Merry]

Too tired to look any more - will try again tomorrow.....

[kiterunner]

I'm getting to the point where I can't see the wood for the trees, so think I will have to do the same.

[Zoemcdougall]

I truly appreciate what you are both doing for me. What I do next with the info you have both found. The entry about the Holywell connection sounds interesting as most of San'a side is from there.

[Merry]

[QUOTE]as most of San'a side is from there. [QUOTE]

Sorry, who is that?

If Kate doesn't get to this first, later on I'll type out the census records we are trying to fill in the gaps for, so that hopefully there will be more people who can join in to either prove or disprove whether Hannah Ann Williams nee Bloore spent a while co-habiting with Thomas Jones.

[Zoemcdougall]

Sorry Merry, typing this out whilst on a bus, meant to have read, alot of my Dad's family were from the Holywell area.

[kiterunner]

What I do next with the info you have both found.

Wait a bit to see if we manage to prove this is the right family. It certainly looks likely because of both Hannah and Sarah having the right middle names, but we still need to find the family members on a few more censuses.

I get the feeling that if this is the right Hannah, it still won't tell us who Edward's father was as it could be that Thomas and Hannah separated, or Thomas died, and Hannah went to Sheffield and had Edward by some other man before she met Henry Jones and moved to Northampton. If only we could search for pre-1911 births by mother's maiden name! Unfortunately it isn't on the index at that date.

At least we will have one side of his tree if this is right, though.