John Sullivan

[Asa]

I'm trying to narrow down a death for this chap.

Born in Saffron Hill/ Holborn, London, he's 6 in 1851, 24 in 1868, 25 in 1871, 38 in 1881, 47 in 1891, "46" in 1901 - so born around 1844-ish.

He's in Clerkenwell in 1871/81/91 and in 1901 he and the family are in Pickering Street Dwellings, (Essex Road) Islington. He's at the same address on the electoral rolls in 1903 and 1905 and there's no elector listed for 1907 or thereafter until his widow Mary appears at the address in 1912.

In 1911, Mary Ann is listed as married 41 years. They married in 1868 so this isn't right unless she meant they were married for 41 years.

I can only see two likely deaths - Sep qtr 1908 Pancras aged 64 and Mar qtr 1911 Islington aged 70.

Deceasedonline has the latter - buried Islington Cemetery 30 Jan 1911 aged 70 Holborn Infirmary, Islington. I've not been able to find him in the workhouse records but I don't think I'm very good at searching them online.

Any ideas or help please? I don't really want to buy two certs on the offchance:-)

[Merry]

If it was mine I would go for the 1908 death as in my experience ages are often accurate at death despite the person not being available to confer with (in this case, matching him with aged 6 in 1851)! Also I have seen many 1911 widows who quote the duration of their marriage, so 41 years is pretty close if it was actually 40 and a bit.

I know there are a lot of John Sullivan's, but I wondered if you had tried to work out who the other one was?

[Asa]

You're right Merry and it often amazes me that someone's age is up and down on various records and then it's on the money with death certs. A Pancras death could well be the Royal Free by then. I'll do what you suggest and have a look at the other John. Thanks

[Merry]

This couple

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LNDRG13_182_184-0775&fn=Mary&ln=Sullivan&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2410957

both seem to disappear by 1911. His death might be the 1911 one and there are a couple of possibles for her, if they died in Islington, of course :)

[Asa]

Thanks - they're in Islington in 1891 as well and an artificial flower maker is quite likely to have ended up in the Workhouse infirmary.

[Asa]

Blither, the 1908 one isn't mine. Some bod from Drury Lane.

[Merry]

Oh dear Asa :o Sorry if I encouraged you to get that certificate :o:o:o

I wonder what happened to him? I suppose he might have been in a hospital further afield? (or on a visit somewhere, or whatever.....)

[Asa]

I thought it was the likely one too :-) Will have to investigate more...

[Merry]

You don't suppose he had just left her? I looked at the 1911 census and saw she said 'head, wife' as well as married 41 years. Maybe he left her in 1909?

She doesn't say she is a widow....

[Merry]

Or she threw him out!

[Merry]

There's a couple at 6 Hilbrow Road Ramsgate in 1911. This John Sullivan is only 59, but I don't know that we can worry about that too much! He says he was b St Luke's London which is what your man said in 1901. The Ramsgate man's wife is 45-year-old Annie from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. The interesting bit is, they have not filled in any of the details about length of marriage and how many children etc, though they do both say they are married (but who to?!!). I had a brief look for the same couple in 1901 (mainly for Ann(ie)), but nothing showing.

Have you traced the children forward? I had a look for Alfred in 1911 without any luck (didn't check deaths though)

[Asa]

I'll have a look at him - thanks Merry.

You really shouldn't have asked about the children because tomorrow I'll tell you about them :-)

[Merry]

*puts fingers in ears*

*la-la-laaaa*

[Asa]

I've removed this because it's more inf than I want picked up by google :-)

[Asa]

Ah, I've noticed that John Sullivan is recorded as deceased when daughter Catherine marries 4 Jun 1911. I know that doesn't rule the Ramsgate John out completely - can't find him in 1901 but....

In contrast, it's John and Mary's son James who fills out the 1911 and records his mother as married.

[Merry]

*gives up and takes fingers out of ears*

Ah, I've noticed that John Sullivan is recorded as deceased when daughter Catherine marries 4 Jun 1911.

Ah! I guess that means it's 99% likely he was dead and 1% likely she had disowned him for going off!

When I asked about the children I was thinking more along the lines of whether any of them might be with their father in 1911!

[Asa]

Sorry - I over did that a bit then :) Alfred is a bit of a puzzle. I understand not being able to find some of the older ones with more common names but he *should* be traceable. I'm going to go back and look at John Sullivan deaths I think :s Thanks:)