View Full Version : Going round (and round) in circles
BK6 updated from this thread
I've been adding a twig of distant relatives to my tree and something that should have taken a couple of minutes and shouldn't be all that important, has consumed me for several days! I ought to leave it really, but can't seem to, so I need someone else to come up with the answer.
All I wanted was to find the birth details for the wife of my relative so she would appear correctly on my tree.
Here's the marriage:
Marriages Dec 1883
FOSTER Adelaide Elizabeth Kensington 1a 375 <<<<<<<<<<<<
JOYCE Rose Marie Kensington 1a 375
MANDERS Adelaide Elizabeth Kensington 1a 375 <<<<<<<<<<
SHERLOCK Edwin Charles Kensington 1a 375
WILLIAMS George Stanley Kensington 1a 375 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
and then they did it again:
Marriages Dec 1884
Forster Adelaide Elizabeth St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 846 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Manders Adelaide E St George Hanover Square 1a 846 <<<<<<<<<<
Schomberg Arthur St. Geo. H. Sq 1a 846
Williams George Stanley St.Geo. H.Sq. 1a 846 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Wilson Adah Jessie St Geo Han Sq 1a 846
Zanker Herbert St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 846
They had these sons:
Joseph Coryton Stanley Williams b 1884 (Q2 Market Bosworth district)
Vivian Dunbar Stanley Williams b 1885 (Q4 ditto)
George Gilbert Algernon Williams b 1888 (Q4 ditto)
Noel Charles Augustus Williams b. 1889 (Q1 1890 ditto)
all of whom lived to adulthood.
No sign of any of them in 1891. George Stanley Williams (b 1852 Tring, Herts) was in the army, so perhaps they went abroad?
George Stanley Williams died in 1897 (probate entry) at The Coppice, Queniborough Leic. The previous year he had divorced his wife for her adultery. Next we have this:
Marriages Mar 1897
DE VILLAUDE William Forbes L (Duc) Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<<
De Villuade William Forbes L (Duc) Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<<<
FLETCHER Alice Rose Kensington 1a 269
FORBES-LESLIE William (Duc de Villaude) Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<
GOLDSON Harry Kensington 1a 269
Leslie William Forbes (Duc de Villaude) Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<
Leslie William Forbes(Duc de Villaude) Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<<
Manders Ada Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Manders Adelaide Ivy E Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Williams Ada Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Williams Adelaide Ivy E Kensington 1a 269 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I know this was a register office wedding and that her father was recorded as Herbert Manders on the cert as just before she was jailed for fraud :eek: in 1911 (The Times) the marriage cert was discussed in court. It also mentioned that she had been divorced twice, the first time before she married Williams so presumably that was to a Mr Fo(r)ster (also in the army, so presume they married abroad, as I can't find anything in Eng/Wales). In 1911 Adelaide was aged 48 (or 49, can't see it now)
I think William Forbes-Leslie may have been another con merchant, as I became overwhelmed with 'stuff' when I googled his name and/or checked the papers!
There is a Louis Forbes-Leslie b Paris on the 1911 census who I guess might well be another child for Adelaide/Ada.
So, all I wanted was her date and place of birth as well as her maiden name (Manders?) to tidy up my tree, but instead I get all this and no answers!
And no, I'm not buying any certs because they are too distant!
Please help!!! lol
maggie_4_7
10-03-12, 18:22
Isn't that also her in her maiden name at the top.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=0&db=freebmdmarriage&ti=5538&f6=375&f7=1883&f9=10&f5=1a
Adelaide Elizabeth Foster.
Do we have any idea what sort of age Adelaide should be?
Isn't that also her in her maiden name at the top.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=0&db=freebmdmarriage&ti=5538&f6=375&f7=1883&f9=10&f5=1a
Adelaide Elizabeth Foster.
Hi Maggie - I think that was her previous married name. She married an army officer but then ran off with GS Williams who was in the same regiment but was richer (according to The Times).
Do we have any idea what sort of age Adelaide should be?
Jess, in 1911 she was in her very late 40s, which might or might not be right, but if she did have a child in about 1903/4 (Louis) and married for the second time in 1883/84 there isn't a huge abount of room for manouvering, I think.
maggie_4_7
10-03-12, 18:32
oh so she was married to a Foster too!
I didn't read your post correctly!
ElizabethHerts
10-03-12, 18:34
"I know this was a register office wedding and that her father was recorded as Herbert Manders on the cert as just before she was jailed for fraud in 1911 (The Times) the marriage cert was discussed in court. It also mentioned that she had been divorced twice, the first time before she married Williams so presumably that was to a Mr Fo(r)ster (also in the army, so presume they married abroad, as I can't find anything in Eng/Wales). In 1911 Adelaide was aged 48 (or 49, can't see it now)
I think William Forbes-Leslie may have been another con merchant, as I became overwhelmed with 'stuff' when I googled his name and/or checked the papers!"
Civil Registration event: Marriage
Print Close
Name: MAUNDERS, Adelaide Elizabeth
Registration district: Conway
County: Caernarvonshire
Year of registration: 1878
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 11B
Page no: 653
MarriageFinder: Adelaide Elizabeth Maunders married one of the following people:
FORSTER, John Burton
FOSTER, John
MANDERS, Adelaide E
kiterunner
10-03-12, 18:49
There is a Louis Forbes-Leslie b Paris on the 1911 census who I guess might well be another child for Adelaide/Ada.
His birthplace is "unknown" on the census image.
kiterunner
10-03-12, 18:58
William Forbes-Leslie was in South Africa in 1901 according to the medal rolls on ancestry.
Thanks Elizabeth, that's interesting. Maybe I should be looking harder for her in 1881, though I've been put off by the "indian regiment" ref in The Times where they told the tale of her running away with GS Williams.
Kate, I've been trying to remember where I saw Paris for Louis. I think it was on some merchant seaman papers on FMP. South Africa was mentioned for one of Adelaide's 'escape routes' in the paper though.
kiterunner
10-03-12, 19:06
TNA has divorce papers listed for Adelaide Ivy Elizabeth Forbes-Leslie otherwise Forster and William Forbes-Leslie; she applied for a judicial separation in 1920 and he applied for nullity in 1921.
William Forbes-Leslie was in South Africa in 1901 according to the medal rolls on ancestry.
and in jail in the 1930s!
kiterunner
10-03-12, 19:15
There's a WW1 medal card for a Major General John Burton Forster; wonder whether that's him? There is a Henry Burton Forster who got married in 1917 age 27 (in the LMA records) whose father is John Burton Forster, Major General CB.
kiterunner
10-03-12, 19:18
John Burton Forster is on the National Probate Calendar as dying in 1938 so he must be the John B Forster who died that year age 82. So he would be born about 1856, which would mean he was definitely old enough to have been married to Adelaide in 1878.
Got to go and eat in a minute.
This is solved now!
Adelaide is the dau of Herbert Manders and his wife Elizabeth from Dubin They married in Ireland in 1857 and she was b 1858ish in Ireland. They are in London in 1871 but Adelaide is in a school in Chelsea. I can't find her in 1881 - probably she was abroad.
Herbert Manders died in 1871 three doors down from where I was living in Bournemouth in 1972!
Thank you all for your help.
ElizabethHerts
11-03-12, 14:00
Merry, I expect you saw this:
http://www.gravesfa.org/gen035.htm
"Henry Graves (80) married Anne Stephenson in 1835. (R?1)
Children - Graves
114. William Graves, b. 1838, m. Mary Theodore Beatson Cockrane, d. 1907.
115. Henry Graves, b. 1843, d. 1876 (in the Ashanti War).
116. Capt.) George Graves, m(1) ??????, m(2) Miss Massey. He was Harbor Master of Kingston.
117. Elizabeth Graves, m. Herbert Manders (of Richview, Co. Dublin, Ireland), 1857."
ElizabethHerts
11-03-12, 14:01
Also this:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/cf19220525198
They were both minors. I thought they must have been after reading the 1871 census.
Thanks for that Elizab
eth. I had seen the first, but not the second. Everything is slotting together nicely!
Hi Merry,
Very interested in this info about my great grand mother Adelaide Manders.
My understanding is that her first marriage was to Foster who was an officer in the 8th Hussars. The regiment was sent to India and whilst there Manders, who was reputed to be very attractive had an affair with a fellow officer, Captain Stanley Williams. Divorce proceedings were initiated in India. Stanley Williams had to resign his commission.
Stanley Williams and Foster/Manders were married in London in December 1883. However some doubt was caste over the validity of this marriage because of a question mark about the validity of Manders divorce in India in the UK. Once they had finally resolved this matter they married again in December 1884.
This had reverberations regarding the legitimacy of Joseph Stanley Williams and his sister Ivy Elizabeth Williams.
We believe that Adelaide Manders was born in Dublin and that she had a younger sister Florence.
In the family Adelaide Manders was known as "the boulter." After her divorce from Stanley all pictures of her were removed. So we do not know what she looked like. But she was reputed to be very beautiful and according to my grandmother she had "IT".
According to family memory she was reputed to have had five husbands including "a Spanish/Dutch duke."
1. Foster 1878
2. GS Williams 1883/84 divorced 1896
3. William Forbes-Leslie 1897 judicial separation 1920/nullity 1921
4. ?
5. ?
We believe that she lived on the South coast (Brighton?) and died ther during the late 1930s. We think she may have suffered from severe arthritis in her old age.
Hi Charles, welcome to GF :)
This had reverberations regarding the legitimacy of Joseph Stanley Williams and his sister Ivy Elizabeth Williams.
We believe that Adelaide Manders was born in Dublin and that she had a younger sister Florence.
I hadn't spotted that Joseph Stanley Williams had a sister - when and where was she born?
Adelaide Manders siblings:
Annie Manders b 2 Dec 1865 Dundrum and Glencullen, Dublin, Ireland Herbert Manders, Elizabeth Graves
Margaret Manders b 26 Sep 1867 Dundrum & Glencullen, Dub, Ireland Herbert Manders, Elizabeth Graves
Henry Herbert Manders b 29 Aug 1870 Dublin, Ireland Herbert Manders, Elizabeth Greaves
Florence and Herbert are listed with their parents in 1871 in Kensington.
Hi Merry,
My info is that Ivy Williams was born at Copse Wood, Walton on the Hill 19th February 1883.
It seems that Adelaide Manders/Foster/Williams/Forbes-Leslie - Duchess of Villano- had a total of 6 children. I'm interested in finding out more about Louis Forbes Leslie allegedly born in Paris in 1904. He is recorded in 1911 Census as at a prep school in Hastings and then he seems to disappear....
Thanks for the date for Ivy.
I'm sure I saw a merchant navy record for Louis on FMP. I'll have another look..........
Yep, I did. It has his photo!!
Let me know if you don't have access to the image.
Hi Merry,
Not sure what FMP is. Yes please would like to see his image.
Thanks
I've sent you a personal message.
I'm interested to know more about Forbes Leslie's application in 1921 for annullmenet of his marriage to Adelaide Manders/Forster/Williams and then married to Forbes Leslie in 1897. Where is this recorded? What were the grounds for nullity?
Likewise where is Adelaide's application in 1920 for a deed of separation recorded?
What is she calling herself at this time?
There is a reference to Forbes Leslie being in gaol in the 1930's. Was this following the collapse of his oil shale company? What was his offence? How long did he serve?
There is also a reference to William Forbes-Leslie marrying a Banks in 1934. Presumably the same guy.
Any answers appreciated. Thanks
Charles
Re the antics of William Forbes Leslie, your best bet would be to get access to Gale Newspapers. This is a site which has 200 years + of The Times Newspapers and various other newspaper collections online to browse/search.
Which country do you live in? If England then you can most likely join via your local library.
There is also a reference to William Forbes-Leslie marrying a Banks in 1934. Presumably the same guy.
I would imagine so.
I'm interested to know more about Forbes Leslie's application in 1921 for annullmenet of his marriage to Adelaide Manders/Forster/Williams and then married to Forbes Leslie in 1897. Where is this recorded? What were the grounds for nullity?
Likewise where is Adelaide's application in 1920 for a deed of separation recorded?
What is she calling herself at this time?
Any answers appreciated. Thanks
Charles
There are these records at The National Archives:
Court for Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, later Su... J 77/1691/2630
Divorce Court File: 2630. Appellant: Adelaide Ivy Elizabeth Forbes-Leslie. Respondent: William Forbes-Leslie. Type: Wife's petition for judicial separation [wjs]. . Divorce Court File: 2630. Appellant: Adelaide Ivy Elizabeth Forbes-Leslie. Respondent:
Date: 1920
Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives
Court for Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, later Su... J 77/1772/5255
Divorce Court File: 5255. Appellant: William Forbes-Leslie. Respondent: Adelaide Ivy Elizabeth Forbes-Leslie otherwise Adelaide Ivy Elizabeth Forster. Type: Husband's petition for/of nullity [hn]. . Divorce Court File: 5255. Appellant: William Forbes-
Date: 1921
Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives
You can order copies via their website:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm
Start by going to "The Catalogue" (under Records)
Olde Crone
28-03-12, 17:56
Interesting!
Judicial separation was (still is) a way for a wife to get financial support and all the other benfits of marriage without having to carry out her marital dutties and/or live with her spouse.
Nullity can only be granted IF the appellant would not have married the respondent had they known a material fact about the spouse. This covered such things as a spouse exaggerating their financial position or in the case of a wife, failing to disclose that she had been previously married, or had had an illegitimate child etc. It also covered the situation where one spouse had a venereal disease.
OC
Adelaide Manders/ Forbes-Leslie
Hi Merry and Old Crone,
Thanks a lot for all the helpful steers and information.
Will follow them up and get back to you if anything interesting comes out of it.
Charles
Hi Merry,
Adelaide Mander's father
You say that Herbert Manders, father of Adelaide Manders, died in Bournemouth in 1871. Assuming that he was, as stated, a minor when he married Elizabeth Graves in 1857 he would have been born about 1836. This means he was only 35/36 when he died. Any clues as to cause of death. Are we sure that this is the same Hernert Manders? Obviously given Adelaide's later behaviour the sudden death of her dad when she was about 13 is quite significant. It is likely to have had some impact both emotionally and financially.
Charles
kiterunner
01-04-12, 11:36
His age at death is shown as 34 on the GRO deaths index.
This is the National Probate Calendar entry from 1886 which hopefully shows whether or not it is the same Herbert:
MANDERS Herbert Esq
Personal Estate in England £600.
2 March. Administration (with the Will) of the unadministered Personal Estate of Herbert Manders late of Richview in the County of Dublin Esquire who died on or about 6 December 1871 at Bournemouth in the County of Dorset granted 11 December 1884 at Dublin under the usual Limitations to Elizabeth Manders of 82 Cambridge-terrace Hyde Park in the County of Middlesex Widow the Guardian of Florence Manders and Herbert Manders Minors the Children two of the Residuary Legatees.
Yes, he is the right Herbert Manders. The cause of death will generally only be found on the death certificate.
It's possible Herbert died of something like TB if he came to Bournemouth for health reasons. The Royal National Chest Hospital was built in Bournemouth in the late 1850s (my OH used to work there!). Obviously that's only a guess though.
I'd forgotten that I had said previously he died where I used to live in Bournemouth. I haven't added him to my tree, so didn't record that info and now I don't know where I found it as it's not on that probate entry or in the newspaper announcement of his death, or in the Gazette. EDIT and now I'm wondering if I was inadvertently reading something about someone else, as I don't think the street in question actually existed in 1871. Odd, as I would have said it was from the probate entry I got the street name, yet it's not there.......obviously I'm losing the plot!! lol
Uncle John
01-04-12, 15:16
You aren't trying to confuse us, are you??
kiterunner
01-04-12, 15:42
I suppose when FamilySearch put the Irish Probate Calendar online (sometime soon?) there might be a more specific address on there.
Hi Merry and others,
Thanks for your helpful contributions
I does look as if we have the right Herbert! And that he did die an untimely death - Consumption seems a likely candidate.
I would like to find out more about what happened to Foster and Manders in India. Given the descriptions of the conditions Foster's regiment(believed to be the 8th Hussars) were living in it seems slightly odd that she should have gone out there with him. Was this normal practice to have to have young wives tagging along with their officer husbands.
The 8th Hussars arrived in Bombay in Jan 1879. They didn't get into real action until late 1879 when they went to Afghanistan to support General Roberts. There were apparently a fair number of casualties through sickness and diseease.
The family story is that Foster was a fellow officer in the 8th Hussars - which is why when the affair was discovered George Stanley Williams had to resign his commission.
But I have not yet been able to identify a Foster in the 8th Hussars at that time.
Still going round and round in circles...but getting somewhere slowly..
Charles
Have you got your access to the Gale newspaper site yet? There are a few articles about the first divorce within the 19th Century British Library Newspaper records. The first one I have read says Captain Forster (not Foster) was in the 18th Royal Irish Regiment and Captain G S Williams was of the 8th Hussars.
The longest article is A NORTH WALES MARRIAGE AND AN INDIAN SCANDAL printed in the Cheshire Observer (Chester, England), Saturday, May 26, 1883 on page 7.
EDIT: Yes it was very usual for spouses and families to be with their army husbands in India.
You mentioned on an earlier post that Adelaide had six known children .....
These four I mentioned in post #1:
Joseph Coryton Stanley Williams b 1884 (Q2 Market Bosworth district)
Vivian Dunbar Stanley Williams b 1885 (Q4 ditto)
George Gilbert Algernon Williams b 1888 (Q4 ditto)
Noel Charles Augustus Williams b. 1889 (Q1 1890 ditto)
Then
the one you told me about:
Ivy Williams was born at Copse Wood, Walton on the Hill 19th February 1883
and Louis Forbes-Leslie in 1904, which makes six, but there is also.......
Herbert Orme Burton Forster Pedigree
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 10 AUG 1879 Ferozepore, , West Bengal, India
Christening: 31 AUG 1879 Ferozepore, , West Bengal, India
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: John Burton Forster
Mother: Adelaide Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record.
Hi Merry and Kiterunner,
Adelaide Manders
Hmmm!
The report in The Cheshire Observer is very detailed. It tells the whole story of what went on in India. I don't think either Manders or George Stanley come out of it very well.
It would seem that when Adelaide said in 1906 in Paris that she had 6 children she had decided to forget about poor Herbert Orme her first child by Forster who presumably succumbed to dysentry or something similar in India fairly soon after his birth. It maybe that the loss of this child reignited her grief about losing her father...
Still following up the other leads re divorce from Forbes-Leslie.
Charles
Hi Merry and Kiterunner,
Still following up Forbes-Leslie. According to Aberdeen University Roll of former graduates it seems that his father was Alexander Ross Paterson who graduated from Aberdeen University with first class honours in Medecine in 1861. He was in turn the son of Alexander Paterson born in Glenmuich in 1835.
There is an entry recording that William Paterson graduated in 1891, and then proceeded in 1892 to change his name to William Paterson Forbes-Leslie and then in 1894 to further change his name to William Forbes-Leslie
Paterson, William, M.B., CM. 1891.
S. of Alexander Ross P. [M.D., CM. 1861, r^.v.] ; h. Banchory-
Ternan, 5th Aug. 1865.
In 1892 changed his name to William Paterson Forbes-Leslie, and
in 1894 further changed it to William Forbes-Leslie.
I don't know what his motivations for these name changes were. I think his mother was Grace Anna Leslie and his mother's mother was a Forbes. Any suggestions?
Kiterunner you mention that he is recorded as being in South Africa in 1900. Where can I find that record?
Re the Blessed Adelaide I found a newspaper reference to her being arrested and imprisoned in Paris in the Spring of 1906. But I've carelessly mislaid it. Any suggestions as to where I might find it again.
Charles
kiterunner
07-04-12, 18:29
Kiterunner you mention that he is recorded as being in South Africa in 1900. Where can I find that record?
Sorry, I can't exactly remember how I found the right record for him but it must be on this database:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1686
I'm away for Easter at the moment so not sure if I will be able to find the right record till I get home.
I don't know what his motivations for these name changes were. I think his mother was Grace Anna Leslie and his mother's mother was a Forbes. Any suggestions?
I have several people on my tree who changed their name at this period and every one of them seems to have done it mainly for the snob value of having a more fanciful name, usually with at least one hyphen in it! I can't think why he would bother dropping the Paterson though - un less he fell out with his father. You could perhaps look to see if his father left a will and if his father's death coincided with any of the name changes.
Re the Blessed Adelaide I found a newspaper reference to her being arrested and imprisoned in Paris in the Spring of 1906. But I've carelessly mislaid it. Any suggestions as to where I might find it again.
I'm stuck with any ideas, sorry. Do you think you found the ref from googling or from a website? If the former, I can only suggest trying agan!!
Thanks for this reference. Yes I've found him in the list and receiving a medal for 1901 and 1902.
Charles
I found a family tree for William Forbes Leslie showing descent from George Leslie of Drumbarrow Ist Laird Aikenway on:
scotsgenealogy.com/webcams/minibios/l/George_Le
It doesn't record, however, WFL's marriage to Adelaide Manders or the birth of Louis Forbes_Leslie 1904. However since it asserts (wrongly) that WFL died in Ashford in 1925 it may not be completely accurate.
Charles
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