Help reading witness signature please

[Joan of Archives]

Can anyone confirm the signature of the witness beneath Elizabeth Jones please? I think it is Richard Jones :rolleyes:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/Joan_039/image0-1-1-1-1.jpg


The marriage took place in 1846 in Yoxford Suffolk, between Elizabeth's sister Emma Jones & John Flintoff.
If so, can anyone find Richard Jones on the 1841/51 census, all I know is that he wasn't born in Wales but is an English Jones, Elizabeth was his sister I think, her birth date was about 1823, in Kenton, Devon. I think he would have been born around 1814 - 1828 but not sure where :( There was also a brother, Henry William Jones.

Elizabeth Jones' parents were Susanna(h) Wills & William Jones. Susanna was from Devon, no idea if William was Welsh or not (let's not go there lol) :rolleyes:

[kiterunner]

Yes, it says Richard Jones.

[Merry]

Is Emma the one born Hambrook, Gloucestershire?

[Merry]

At the moment I can see:

Elizabeth Jones bap 1822 Kenton

Eliza Jones bap 1824 Kenton (b Starcross, Devon on 1851 census)

Emma Jones born abt 1818 Hambrook, Gloucestershire (1851)

Benjamin Jones b 1835 Yoxford, Suffolk (1851)

[Merry]

Is this them? All except the youngest two say No for born in County. I don't know what they have done with Benjamin.

Yoxford 1841

Susanna Jones 45
Elizabeth Jones 20
Eliza Jones 15
William Jones 15
Mary Jones 12
Charles Jones 10
Edward Jones 8
Thomas Jones 4

[Merry]

I'm stuck now! :o

[Merry]

In 1861 the Flintoff's have Susannah Jones, widow 30 b Tunstall, Staffs visiting them. *wonders who she is*

[Joan of Archives]

At the moment I can see:

Elizabeth Jones bap 1822 Kenton

Eliza Jones bap 1824 Kenton (b Starcross, Devon on 1851 census)

Emma Jones born abt 1818 Hambrook, Gloucestershire (1851)

Benjamin Jones b 1835 Yoxford, Suffolk (1851)


That's them.

I am wondering if Richard was also born in Glos as I think father William escaped across the border from Wales lol :rolleyes:

I have yet to find a marriage for Susanna(h) & William, there is one in London that's possible, but it's a bit late:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

Not impossible though. I don't think his occupation was the same (coachman) I haven't got access to Ancestry at the mo until OH puts my new FTM on the PC later :rolleyes:

[Joan of Archives]

In 1861 the Flintoff's have Susannah Jones, widow 30 b Tunstall, Staffs visiting them. *wonders who she is*

Ooh really? She must have married in somewhere.... maybe Richard? Can I have a household transcription please? Can you find her on 1851 Merry?

Thanks!

[Merry]

I don't know if this is the same person, but if she is, we are after Richard not John.....

Marriages Sep 1844
JONES John Newport 18 114
PRICE Susannah Newport 18 114

[Joan of Archives]

I don't know if this is the same person, but if she is, we are after Richard not John.....

Marriages Sep 1844
JONES John Newport 18 114
PRICE Susannah Newport 18 114

Hmm that John wouldn't fit, but he obviously could be related to my Jones :o Oh dear I can't keep up with these Joneses, it's almost as bad as Smiths lol ;)

[Merry]

No, I can't find Susannah Price in 1851 so that marriage may be wrong.

1851 Russell St Monks Coppenhall, Cheshire

John Flintoff head m 44 green and confectioner b Deighton (?) Yorks
Emma Flintoff wife m 42 b Winterbourne, Glouc
Wm Geo Flintoff son 12 scholar b Cheshire, Nantwich
Reginald M...? Flintoff son 3 scholar b ditto (age seems unlikely)
Emma Ann Flintoff dau 4 scholar b Staffs, Tunstall
Hy Wm Jones Flintoff son 3m b ditto
and that Susannah.

[Merry]

Were they on the run or something? John and Reg Flintoff are in St George in the East in 1871!

[Joan of Archives]

Were they on the run or something? John and Reg Flintoff are in St George in the East in 1871!

I think Emma had died by then, anyway the Flintoffs aren't really my direct ancestors, I would be shocked if I'm related to Freddie though :d

[Joan of Archives]

In 1861 the Flintoff's have Susannah Jones, widow 30 b Tunstall, Staffs visiting them. *wonders who she is*

Merry can you find a Susanna(h) born 1831 Tunstall Staffs in 1851 anywhere? It may give us her maiden name?

If you're bored lol :rolleyes: Thanks!

[Merry]

In 1881 John and Reg are still in London, but now John is a widower. They have a visitor called Lilly Jones aged 19 who is helpfully born in London :rolleyes:

EDIT.....Oh, John must have been a widower in 1871 as well.

Deaths Mar 1867
Flintoff Emma 49 St.Geo.East 1c 386

I can't find Susannah Jones anywhere else than 1861.

Just going to see if I can work out who Lilly is.

[Merry]

Merry can you find a Susanna(h) born 1831 Tunstall Staffs in 1851 anywhere? It may give us her maiden name?

If you're bored lol :rolleyes: Thanks!

As they were living in Cheshire and she was listed after the children I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't born there at all, but in case you want to play....1851 Sus* b Tunstall....there are only three 1830+/-2, all married though....Morris (married to Thomas nee Bennett), Nixon (married to Wm) and Salsbury (m to Arthur)

[Joan of Archives]

As they were living in Cheshire and she was listed after the children I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't born there at all, but in case you want to play....1851 Sus* b Tunstall....there are only three 1830+/-2, all married though....Morris (married to Thomas nee Bennett), Nixon (married to Wm) and Salsbury (m to Arthur)

I can't play yet until I'm back in Ancestry :(

Mmmm could she have been one of those & remarried a Jones? Would she come up in the index under her maiden name or previous married name? It's been so long I've forgotten lol :rolleyes:

[Merry]

Just going to see if I can work out who Lilly is.


OK, so I give up on that idea!

[Joan of Archives]

OK, so I give up on that idea!

Nooooooooooooooooo Lilly is an uncommon name with Jones surely? :d

[Merry]

I can't play yet until I'm back in Ancestry



I meant on FreeBMD!

More likely she was born/married in Cheshire than the same place the Flintoff children were born. There's only about 100 Jones/Sus* marriages to choose from in Cheshire though. Pity she didn't have a child with her.

[Merry]

Nooooooooooooooooo Lilly is an uncommon name with Jones surely? :d

Well there aren't very many born in London, but then I have to trace the father back each time........I have to do the school run soon!

[Merry]

Actually, there were only two in 1871 and both those are still single in 1881 and so neither of them are the Lilly with John and reg, so they probably made a wild stab at her place of birth (or she is hiding in 1871)

have to go now.....

[Joan of Archives]

What about a William & Mary Jones in London in 1861, children Alice b 1858 Whitechapel London & Lilly b 1861 ?

Any chance you can find them in 1861 for me?

[Merry]

What about a William & Mary Jones in London in 1861

I think that one was still with her parents in 1881.

[Merry]

Yep, you can see her on FS 1881.

Bye!

[Joan of Archives]

Yep, you can see her on FS 1881.

Bye!

:rolleyes:

[Merry]

I'm back!

So to recap, from the 1861 census, we don't know who widow Susannah Jones b 1830 possibly in Tunstall Staffs is, and from the 1881 census, we don't know who Lilly Jones b about 1862 in London is either.

We haven't found Richard Jones, but he might have been born in Devon or Gloucestershire or somewhere else.

Do you know when and where William Jones and Susannah were married?

[Joan of Archives]

I'm back!

So to recap, from the 1861 census, we don't know who widow Susannah Jones b 1830 possibly in Tunstall Staffs is, and from the 1881 census, we don't know who Lilly Jones b about 1862 in London is either.

We haven't found Richard Jones, but he might have been born in Devon or Gloucestershire or somewhere else.

Do you know when and where William Jones and Susannah were married?

No lol :rolleyes:

I could only find a marriage in London on Family search, in 1822 so after some of the kids were born, so unlikely, but as William was a coach driver maybe they tied the knot en route to Suffolk?

If you can find their marriage on Ancestry it may give a clue, maybe his occupation or something. It's a very long shot though :(

[Merry]

How do you know her maiden name?

[Joan of Archives]

How do you know her maiden name?

Who? Susannah? It's not the same Susannah you found in 1861; you mean Susanna(h) who was Emma, Elizabeth & Richard's mother? Who married William Jones?

I have a birth certificate from a child they had in 1839 :rolleyes:

[Merry]

Ah right!

If they married in Devon or Gloucestershire then they are both areas not very well covered online (esp Devon), so I would think you might be out of luck. I wondered if Susannah was def the mother of all of them? Do you know how old Wm was when he died?

[Merry]

I could only find a marriage in London on Family search

I wondered if that is on Ancestry too, but I can't find it on FS either! Where was the venue?

[kiterunner]

It's mentioned on this old thread, Merry:
http://www.familytreeforum.com/archive/index.php/t-53872.html?

On Boyd's Marriage Index, 1822 at St George Hanover Square.

[kiterunner]

And it is on ancestry in the LMA records but they have transcribed William's surname as Janes. (It is Jones on the image.) 27 Feb 1822, both of the parish, no marital status given, by banns, he made his mark and she signed, witnesses Thomas Wyatt and John Geo Leigh.

[Merry]

I would do better if I didn't keep trying to marry off Susannah to Richard instead of Wm!

Found the marriage, but it doesn't give their conditions. I doubt it's the right one, tbh.

[kiterunner]

Then a William Jones and Susanna have a daughter Amelia Tyler baptised at St Geo Hanover Square in 1828 and a daughter Anne baptised in 1832, William's occupation is servant on the baptisms. So if that is the same couple who got married in 1822, would that rule them out as your couple?

[Merry]

It's mentioned on this old thread, Merry:
http://www.familytreeforum.com/archive/index.php/t-53872.html?

On Boyd's Marriage Index, 1822 at St George Hanover Square.

I don't know if it's good or bad that after three years we are still asking the same questions!! I liked this bit:

Joan of Archives25-10-08, 20:16

Just a thought, I wonder if Susanna was his 2nd wife?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Merry]

JOANIE!! *stern face*

You made my type this all out earlier:

Joan of Archives25-10-08, 19:41
Emma on 1861 census with family :

Class: RG9; Piece: 2616; Folio: 4; Page: 1; GSU roll: 543000.

Emma Flintoff wife aged 42
Emma Ann Flintoff daughter aged 4
Harry Wm Jones Flintoff son aged 3 Mo
John Flintoff Head 44
Reginald Marlan Flintoff son 8
Wm Geo Flintoff son 12
Susannah Jones visitor 30

:d:d:d:d:d:d

[Joan of Archives]

Then a William Jones and Susanna have a daughter Amelia Tyler baptised at St Geo Hanover Square in 1828 and a daughter Anne baptised in 1832, William's occupation is servant on the baptisms. So if that is the same couple who got married in 1822, would that rule them out as your couple?


Erm yes lol :rolleyes:

JOANIE!! *stern face*

You made my type this all out earlier:



:d:d:d:d:d:d

Oer :o

[Joan of Archives]

Anyway that doesn't help me find where Richard fits in & where he was born lol :rolleyes:

[Merry]

I don't know how to find a random Richard Jones!

I saw on the other thread you said Wm and Susanna had a load of children, many of whom didn't live to adulthood.

Could we have a list with places of birth so we can see if it's possible to see where R might slot in?