Charlotte Searle

[kiterunner]

I've found an entry in the London Schools Admissions and Discharges which may or may not be my great-uncle's wife:

White Lion Street School, Islington, Charlotte Searle admitted 23 Sep 1889, father William, address 35 Henry St. Date of birth 20 Apr 1882, previous school - at Leicester. Date of leaving - 15 Sep 1893, remarks: does not know a letter, cannot write anything, has no idea. (Hopefully that was when she joined the school rather than when she left!)

I managed to find one of the other pupils from Henry Street on the 1891 census - Daisy Bradford, so I know which Henry Street it is, civil parish Clerkenwell, but there is no Searle or Charlotte at 35 Henry Street on that census. There are several families at the address but none looks to be connected to Charlotte.

My Charlotte married Frederick Cheeseman 29 Jun 1901 at St Pancras Register Office, age 20, residence 72 Judd Street, father William Searle (deceased), mechanical engineer. (On her second marriage his Witnesses D Anderson and John Reddy. Frederick Cheeseman and D Anderson are at 72 Judd Street on the 1901 census but the only Charlotte there is a Charlotte Hopkins age 23 born Islington.

On the 1911 census my Charlotte is age 30, born York Road, King's Cross. She died in 1968, so her death certificate doesn't give exact date of birth.

Of course there is no Charlotte Searle birth registration Apr-Jun 1882; that would be way too easy!

I would have thought that William must still be alive in 1889 or his name wouldn't be written in as name of parent or guardian. And surely Charlotte must still have been living in the area in 1891 or she would have left the school? Can anyone find either or both of them in 1891, please? I don't know whether this is my Charlotte so I don't know what her birthplace would be.

Update - 2022 - it turns out that Charlotte's father was actually a William Matthews going by the name Searle, not the William Thomas Searle who is mentioned in this thread.

[Merry]

I would have thought, had she been born in York Road, King's Cross, She shoud have been registered at Holborn, but I can't see that helping! lol

School run again.....

[Merry]

Or Islington, depending on the number in York Road.....

*dashes*

[Merry]

Ah! I bet this is her parents.....(note his occ)

1881:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LNDRG11_226_231-0899&fn=Wm.&ln=Searle&st=d&ssrc=&pid=14149410

[Merry]

In 1871 father is Wm Thos Searle single an engineer in the RN.

I can't see a likely marriage between then and 1881 and I can't see a birth reg for Frederick in the right district.

[Merry]

Or a death for dad.

This is his birth:

Births Mar 1840
Searle William Thomas Strand 1 343


I wondered if Charlotte senr had remarried after the death of Wm Searle and was hiding her children under a different surname in 1891, but then I got bogged down with looking for her first marriage trying to see if she had any other forenames!

And now my lamb shanks are nearly ready......

[Merry]

Oh, was he leading some sort of double life?

1891 -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LNDRG12_501_503-0410&fn=William+T&ln=Searle&st=d&ssrc=&pid=8362378

different wife, but looks like the same man. No Fred and no dau Charlotte and look when he got married!

Marriages Dec 1881
Ball James Hope Greenwich 1d 1445
BELL James Hope Greenwich 1d 1445
HOWLETT Agnes Greenwich 1d 1445
Searle William Thomas Greenwich 1d 1445
Wingrove Frances Harriet Greenwich 1d 1445

[Merry]

Deaths Sep 1896
SEARLE William Thomas 56 Greenwich 1d 639

[kiterunner]

Oh, was he leading some sort of double life?




It wouldn't surprise me, with this family! Thanks for all that; I'll see if I can get anywhere with that lot.

[kiterunner]

The 1881 marriage to Frances is on ancestry and he is a bachelor on there.

[kiterunner]

I've downloaded William Thomas Searle's Navy record from TNA but it doesn't have any info about home address or family.

[kiterunner]

But, ooooh.... remember Charlotte Hopkins who was at the same address where my Charlotte should have been in 1901?

What about this family in 1891?
14 Hermes St, Clerkenwell
Thomas Hopkins Head M 45 Piano Forte Tuner NK
Charlotte Do Wife M 45 London Clerkenwell
Charlotte Do Daur 10 Scholar Do Do
Frederick Do Son 14 Errand Boy Do Do
Lucy Do Daur 6 Scholar Do Do.

Hermes Street is right near White Lion Street, so she would easily have been able to stay at the same school if they moved there from Henry St.

[Merry]

I tried to do that :(:(:(

[kiterunner]

Never mind, Merry, you sorted William Searle out for me. I'd never thought of him being an engineer in the Navy.


Now, Lucy Searle went to White Lion Street School, admission date 14 Dec 1891, date of birth 11 Sep 1884, address 14 Hermes Street, father's name Thomas! So this is definitely the right family. Now, how to explain it to Charlotte's descendants...

Though, I suppose we still need to find out what name(s) they were registered under and what Charlotte sr's maiden name was!

Thanks for your help, Merry.

[HarrysMum]

Kite......as Merry (and a few others) can attest....I have been ill for a couple of weeks. My brain is functioning even less well than usual....lol

However, I'm happy to search (as long as you don't tell OH how many subs I now have).

Please let me know what you are looking for and I'll sit here all day looking for you.....

In other words, just don't expect me to work out what needs to be found...lol

[Merry]

I tried cross referencing the possible birth regs for Charlotte and Lucy but couldn't find any with matching surnames. Didn't help that Lucy doesn't have the same place of birth in 1891 and 1901. :(

[kiterunner]

Kite......as Merry (and a few others) can attest....I have been ill for a couple of weeks. My brain is functioning even less well than usual....lol

However, I'm happy to search (as long as you don't tell OH how many subs I now have).

Please let me know what you are looking for and I'll sit here all day looking for you.....

In other words, just don't expect me to work out what needs to be found...lol

Sorry to hear you're not well, Libby, hope you're better soon.

As for what we're looking for, it's birth registrations (and / or baptisms) for three children:
Frederick born about 1877-8 Clerkenwell (possible date of birth from school records 20 Nov 1878. but this would make his age on the 1881 census a bit out)
Charlotte born 20 Apr 1882 York Road, King's Cross, which could be Holborn registration district or Islington, or could be born Clerkenwell.
Lucy born 11 Sep 1884 Clerkenwell or Pancras.
Their surnames could be Searle, Hopkins, or whatever their mother's maiden name was, but we don't know what that was! Her first name is Charlotte but the father could be down as William Thomas Searle or Thomas Hopkins.

And maybe a marriage between their mother Charlotte and Thomas Hopkins, but I'm not sure when that is likely to be - I found a likely for Thomas in 1881 and he was married with no wife, so they may have already been married by then or maybe not.

[HarrysMum]

So Lucy started school as Lucy SEARLE? Would she have needed a BC?

I'm presuming so otherwise she would have started as Hopkins (from census) and nobody would have been any the wiser.

I've searched Ancestry, FreeBMD, FMP and GR (hoping for her on someone's tree)
There just doesn't seem to be anything.
Can't find probable births tying the three children together.
Checked marriages for any combination of Searle with Charlotte, Hopkins with Charlotte,
Willima, Thomas, NUFFINK!!!

[HarrysMum]

Just checking 1901 for Charlotte.

One is in Birmingham, but she's there with her mother, Charlotte and brother Frederick, both Fred and Charlotte born London. Bit hard as Mum and Fred are in London 1901

The other is in Leicester but she's step-daughter and it's mistranscribed as born London...

I'll put them here just in case someone else thinks they've found her..lol

[maggie_4_7]

Could this be Thomas Hopkins and Charlotte's marriage:-

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1891&end=1891&sq=1&eq=1&type=Marriages&vol=1b&pgno=799&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTMzMDU4NDcwNTozZTcwYjRlMWExZWRmYmRhNzViNTYxMjVj MDRjZDY5MGVkMTU2NDhk&searchdef=given%3Dthomas%26countyid%3DLND%252C48%2 52C57%252C65%252C92%252C119%252C144%252C230%26db%3 Dbmd_1329852393%26sq%3D1%26v%3DMTMzMDU4NDMyMDo0MTR lYjJmOTg1NzkyYjI1NGY0YTI1MDU5YTI4NTJmNThmNzRiNTI3% 26surname%3Dhopkins%26end%3D1891%26s_given%3Dcharl otte%26sndx%3Don%26type%3DMarriages%26eq%3D4%26sta rt%3D1880&action=Find

[Merry]

Libby, I think Kate has 1901 already. Charlotte jr is at 72 Judd st as Charlotte Hopkins (post #1) and her mother, brother and sister and step-father are together, all as Hopkins. (I just remember Lucy has St Pancras for her place of birth, Fred and his mother had Clerkenwell and Thomas Hopkins had Camden.)

Somehow I don't really imagine none of these children were registered at birth, just that we are not recognising them. I'm sure there will be a way, just that I can't think how at the moment.

I wouldn't be surprised if Fred was born a bit later as he was younger in 1891 and 1901. I didn't realise you had his dob too, so that's worth another look at the birth regs :)

[Asa]

Not sure if this helps:) - but my great grandmother was born in 1878 in Caledonia Street which runs between the bottom of York Way and the Cally and her birth was registered in Islington. Her birthplace usually appears as Islington on census but sometimes her and other relations born here and York Way appear as Kings Cross and Clerkenwell...

[Merry]

That's useful Ada (perhaps they knew each other!! lol). Pity Charlotte didn't put a number for York Road! York Way (as it is now) seems to be very long. I've not checked any old maps though.

A re-cap (to save me going back to page one over and over!)

Frederick 20 Nov 1878, Clerkenwell (ie Holborn District)
Charlotte 20 Apr 1882 York Road, King's Cross (ie Holborn or Islington Districts).
Lucy 11 Sep 1884 Clerkenwell or Pancras (ie Holborn or Pancras Districts).

Clerkenwell was part of Holborn District at the time these three were born.

[kiterunner]

Could this be Thomas Hopkins and Charlotte's marriage:-


Thanks for that, Maggie, but there is a baptism for a child of Henry James Brocklehurst and Charlotte in 1892 so I think the Thomas Hopkins in that marriage married Louisa Matilda.


So Lucy started school as Lucy SEARLE? Would she have needed a BC?

I'm presuming so otherwise she would have started as Hopkins (from census) and nobody would have been any the wiser.

I've searched Ancestry, FreeBMD, FMP and GR (hoping for her on someone's tree)
There just doesn't seem to be anything.
Can't find probable births tying the three children together.
Checked marriages for any combination of Searle with Charlotte, Hopkins with Charlotte,
Willima, Thomas, NUFFINK!!!

Thanks for all your searching, Libby.

It turns out that White Lion Street School was the junior school, and I've now found that Lucy Searle started at Penton Grove Infants School 17 Feb 1890, address 14 Hermes St, mother Charlotte. So it could be that Charlotte wasn't with Thomas Hopkins at that date and once Lucy had started school with the surname Searle, she didn't want to change it?

I don't know whether they needed birth certificates to start school at that time.




I wouldn't be surprised if Fred was born a bit later as he was younger in 1891 and 1901. I didn't realise you had his dob too, so that's worth another look at the birth regs :)

I'm glad you said that! I'd found a possible school admission for him but wasn't sure about it because of the age discrepancy with the 1881 census.
Frederick Searle admitted to Winchester Street School, Islington, 2 Jul 1883, date of birth 20 Nov 1878, address 20 Collier St, father William, left 14 Sep 1883.

Now I've found a Frederick Serle admitted to that same school 24 Aug 1885, date of birth 2 Feb 1879, father William, address 64 York Road, previous school All Saints School, leaving date 23 Dec 1886.

Not sure whether this is the same Frederick with a different date of birth! I like the address though.

[Merry]

Hmmm...not having luck with '64 York' in 1881 :mad:

[kiterunner]

This looks like Thomas Hopkins in 1871:
222 Caledonian St., Islington St Thomas
Thomas Hopkins Husband Mar 25 Pianoforte Maker Middx St Clements
Sarah Do Wife Mar 25 Do St Pancras


And this is the possible for Thomas in 1881:
5 Remington St., Finsbury
Thos Hopkins Head Mar 35 Covered string maker (Piano) Mdx Strand

And at the Hospital for the Paralysed and Epileptic, 23-25 Queen Square, St George the Martyr, Finsbury:
Sarah Hopkins Patient Unm 33 Piano Forte Tuner's Wife Middlex Euston Rd
(the Unm is a ditto of the previous patient's entry)

[Merry]

Do you think it's the York Road listed (at least in part) within St Mary's Islington?

[Merry]

Oh, well done with Thomas. Poor Sarah.

[Merry]

Both, I found the odd numbers for the 60s in York Road on FMP under St Luke's Holborn (don't know if it's the right York Road?!) As yet I can't find the even numbers and I have to go out now.

[HarrysMum]

I checked for births of the children under Searle and Hopkins everywhere I could think of checking. I really think they must be registered under their mother's maiden name.

Also checked any combination of Hopkins and Charlotte for a marriage.

So either, they didn't marry or it's lost somewhere or just somewhere I don't know about.

Kite......sorry if I look back I'll lose this.....did the kids need a BC for school?

[kiterunner]

Do you think it's the York Road listed (at least in part) within St Mary's Islington?

I think so, because the description of enumeration district 47 says part is in the parish of St Pancras, and Collier Street, where the "other" Frederick Searle lived in 1883, is right near to there as well. That York Road seems to have been split up into terraces, so I wonder whether number 64 had another street address as well. Winchester Street doesn't seem to be there any more but it looks as though it was in that area too.

[kiterunner]

Kite......sorry if I look back I'll lose this.....did the kids need a BC for school?

I don't know, Libby, but I suspect not because I've come across one or two entries in these school admissions where the year of birth is wrong or the date of birth is different on different sheets for the same child.

[Merry]

1891:

schedule 236 for 62 & 64 York Road Islington Islington London (FMP)

Maybe the neighbours could take us back?

What about that Historic Directories website?

[kiterunner]

What about that Historic Directories website?

That's right! I forgot I looked at York Road on there yesterday! Though of course I didn't have a house number to look for then.

1882 has YORK ROAD (N) from King's Crs to Camden N twn
... here is Wharfedale rd...
62 & 64 Layfield Charles, coffee rooms

[HarrysMum]

Well there's 24 Freds reg in Holborn in the right Q....lol

Couldn't use a rare name could they????

[kiterunner]

So, on the 1881 census, Chas Wm Layfield, coffee house keeper, is at Augusta Ter, 62 York Road, no of houses inhabited 2. There are no Searles there.

[kiterunner]

Well there's 24 Freds reg in Holborn in the right Q....lol

Couldn't use a rare name could they????

That would be way too easy!

[HarrysMum]

Just so you know.....

I've been through every Fred anybody for the possible districts in the time frame.
Then matched up any Charlottes or Lucys for same.

The only one that shows up at all is the surname FRANCIS

Frederick Francis..... Poplar Mar 1877, Holborn Sep 1878, Holborn Dec 1878

Charlotte Matilda Francis..... Lambeth June 1882,
Charlotte Elizabeth Francis......St Olave Dec 1882

Lucy Maud Francis....Poplar Dec 1884

My geography of London is rubbish so don't laugh if they are nowhere near each other. They are just the only registered children with the right first names and same surname in those years.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Libby. Not really in the right area, though. :(

[HarrysMum]

I thought as much.

In that case, either they weren't registered or the years are wrong. Can't see all three being missing off the reg if they were done.
Can't think of any other reason we can't find them.

[HarrysMum]

Does Charlotte give her age on her marriage in 1901?

[kiterunner]

Charlotte Matilda Francis..... Lambeth June 1882

Charlotte Matilda Francis' baptism gives her dob as 15 March 1882, parents William George and Charlotte Matilda, cabman, though strangely enough the address is 47 York St, York Rd - but it's a different York Rd.

[kiterunner]

Does Charlotte give her age on her marriage in 1901?

Yes, 20.

[kiterunner]

I thought as much.

In that case, either they weren't registered or the years are wrong. Can't see all three being missing off the reg if they were done.
Can't think of any other reason we can't find them.

Well, they might be registered with different surnames from each other. And we don't know whether Frederick and Lucy could have had some other first names on their birth regs as we haven't managed to find marriages or deaths for them yet.

[HarrysMum]

Blow...thought maybe she was older as she's 23 on the 1901 census.

Never mind.

[kiterunner]

Her date of birth should be most accurate on the school admission records, though as I said I have seen some where the year is out by 1. The junior school admission record says she was born 20 Apr 1882 and I don't think we'll find an infant school admission because her previous school is "At Leicester". Frederick Serle leaves Winchester Street School 23 Dec 1886 so it looks as though they must have lived in Leicester between then and Sep 1889 when Charlotte started at White Lion Street School. I'll have another look at William Thomas Searle's Royal Navy record and see if there is any clue to those years though it is just a list of ships and dates.

[kiterunner]

I'll have another look at William Thomas Searle's Royal Navy record and see if there is any clue to those years though it is just a list of ships and dates.

No, he retired from the Navy 15 Feb 1885 so that's no help.

[HarrysMum]

1901 Frederick Searle marries Bridget Horrigan Holborn

1911 Fred and Bridget are together. Fred is a pianoforte stringer?

[kiterunner]

Oooooh, thanks! *off to look*

[kiterunner]

So 1911 census Homerton, Hackney
Fredrick Searle Head 33 married 9 years, 6 children, 4 living, 2 decd, Pianoforte Stringer, London Islington
Bridget Searle Wife 29 London Somers Town
Ellen Searle Daughter 9 London Islington
Bridget Searle Daughter 6 London Islington
Mary Searle Daughter 4 London Homerton
Catherine Searle Daughter 3 mo London Homerton

Can't see their marriage in the LMA records so they probably got married at the register office.

[HarrysMum]

It's on FreeBMD

Dec 1901 Holborn. 1b 1210

[HarrysMum]

Looks like Bridget wasn't born either.....lol

[kiterunner]

Oh well, don't worry about her.

[HarrysMum]

Oh well, don't worry about her.



lol.....I'm not now...I'm off to bed.

[kiterunner]

And I've got to go shopping, thanks for all your help.

[Merry]

Charlotte senr was 42 in 1881, 45 in 1891 and 51 in 1901, so it's hard to know how old she might be at death! However, if this isn't her I'm not sure who this person is? I don't see a likely match in 1901 though I've not looked at Charlotte to Searle marriages between 1901 and 1904.

Deaths Sep 1904
Searle Charlotte 51 Holborn 1b 425

I wondered if Thomas Hopkins and possibly also her children thought she was legally the widow of Wm Searle and so registered her as such?

Not that it helps one jot with the birth regs for her children :(

[kiterunner]

I wondered if Thomas Hopkins and possibly also her children thought she was legally the widow of Wm Searle and so registered her as such?



Or she was no longer with Thomas by then and had changed her name back to Searle.

I've found Thomas Hopkins' marriage to Sarah, 25 Dec 1868, St Pancras Church, Thomas Hopkins Junr, bachelor, Piano Forte Maker, father Thomas Hopkins, painter, and Sarah Ann Rourke, spinster, father Martin Rourke, smith, deceased. There's a possible death for Sarah in Hackney in 1883 - Sarah Anne Hopkins age 34, so the age is a bit out, but if her death was registered without the Ann there are too many possibles.

(Edit) found a couple of possibles for Sarah on the 1891 census - there's a Sarah A Hopkins age 43, married, born Euston, living Clerkenwell that could well be her.

[Merry]

Would Sarah have easily 'escaped' from the establishment she was in in 1881?

I had another go at cross referencing the three lots of birth regs, but knowing I have (like you) often seen records where the year is one off, made it difficult to focus!!

[kiterunner]

Would Sarah have easily 'escaped' from the establishment she was in in 1881?



I don't know, but maybe she was only temporarily paralysed? Anyway, if that death you found is Charlotte, it doesn't look as though there is a marriage between Thomas and Charlotte to look for, so I suppose the date of Sarah's death isn't really relevant.

[Merry]

True.

What else can we do? Do you think what you have is enough to prove what seems to make sense?

[kiterunner]

True.

What else can we do? Do you think what you have is enough to prove what seems to make sense?

I'm certain that the family we have found is "my" Charlotte, yes. I can't think of anything else at the moment to find out her mother's maiden name. I don't suppose there's much chance that William Thomas Searle's will would mention anyone apart from Frances and her children.

Mind you, I haven't looked at newspapers yet... I'll let you know if I think of anything else!

[Merry]

Here is the coffee house keeper in 1881:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=7572&path=London.Islington.Islington+West.22.58&sid=&gskw=Chas.+Wm.+Layfield&cr=1

Not sure that's any help though.

[kiterunner]

Sorry, Merry, I didn't realise you were still looking for that - see post #36.

[kiterunner]

Anyway, we will have to take a break from this now as I've just found out FMP has launched the Welsh PR's at last!

[Merry]

Sorry, Merry, I didn't realise you were still looking for that - see post #36.

lol It only took me a few seconds!

Anyway, we will have to take a break from this now as I've just found out FMP has launched the Welsh PR's at last!

Oh no...... pmsl! *wonders I'f I should start looking for a contact's Jones family?*

[Merry]

It seems a bit strange that Frances Harriet Wingrove was recorded as a widow at her wedding, when she wasn't. ;(

[kiterunner]

She wasn't? I didn't realise. I haven't even worked out whether her surname was really Wingrave or Wingrove. I suppose her mother's name is Wingrave / Wingrove on the census but she could have been married to a cousin first time round?

[Merry]

She's single in 1881 and with the mother she was baptised with (I know what I mean!!)

[Merry]

Honestly, I've forgotten if I saw her bap now, but certainly the mother she is with on the censuses is the same person who married William S Wingrave/grove.

Births Jun 1846
WINGRAVE Frances Harriet Hackney 3 20_

[kiterunner]

Oh right, thanks. That is weird, then. I might have expected William to lie about his marital status on the marriage, but why would Frances?

[Merry]

Well, I did wonder if William said he was a widower (but why would he is he hadn't been married?) and there was some confusion by the vicar and he wrote the wrong thing on the cert? Seems odd as I would have thought people of Wm's status would have 1) noticed the mistake and 2) requested it be altered.