Sarah Nishmas

[Muggins in Sussex]

I came across this family in 1911

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2352&iid=rg14_01508_0137_03&fn=Janie&ln=Nishmas&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2768366

I don't think they are connected to me, but they might be !

It shows Sarah Nishmas, a Russian, her children Janie, Julia & Benny all born in the UK (one in Leeds) and Fanny Friedman, also Russian, and a boarder all living in a one-room dwelling in London.

I think her husband may be Morris Nishmas, who is in Wakefield prison in 1911.

I have been trying to find out more about Sarah, and when and why she came to the UK, and why Morris, if he was her husband, was in prison but so far have drawn a blank (other than finding an Isaac in Leeds, who may be related)

Can anyone help please?

[JessBow]

Strangely, only 4 births on FREEBMD in that surname - all Leeds ....and none that tally with yours other than Jane

[JessBow]

OHhhhhhhh, Good news or bad? - Morris died Wakefield 1911 aged 48

[Muggins in Sussex]

Thanks Jess!

Actually the people I am most interested in are the daughters, Janie & Julie :cool:

Hadn't seen Morris's death -thanks for that.

[Muggins in Sussex]

I posted before I'd finished writing!

Jess that looks like the birth for Jane/Janie in 1898 - but as you say, the names and dates are wrong for the others..unless Leah decided to call heself Julia!

[Muggins in Sussex]

Think I've found Morris in 1891 - a boarder in Manchester & single - Place of birth given as Poland :confused:

[ElizabethHerts]

The death of Janie:

Civil Registration event: Death
Name: NISHMAS, Jane
Registration District: Stepney
County: London
Year of Registration: 1938
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 33
Volume No: 1C
Page No: 230

and of Sarah:

Civil Registration event: Death
Name: NISHMAS, Sarah
Registration District: Stepney
County: London
Year of Registration: 1933
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death: 70
Volume No: 1C
Page No: 224

[ElizabethHerts]

According to the 1911 census Sarah had 5 children all living, so there are two more somewhere.

There are two boys born in Leeds in 1900, different quarters, so not brothers. They are David and Simon.

[Muggins in Sussex]

Thank you very much for that, Elizabeth :)

What actually started this all off is that I was trying to find a possible marriage between a female Nishmas and a male Silverman prior to 1919:confused:

[ElizabethHerts]

I can't find any Nishmas marriages, but there must be some! Probably mistranscribed.

[Muggins in Sussex]

I can't either, Elizabeth! - but thank you for looking- I found some banns in Bradford in 1895 between a William Barnes & Elizabeth Nishmas but I can't see how that would fit in!

[Olde Crone]

How old is Fanny Friedman please?

(Some of us have a huge interest in Friedmans, lol, particularly ones called Fanny!)

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

How old is Fanny Friedman please?

(Some of us have a huge interest in Friedmans, lol, particularly ones called Fanny!)

OC

My first thought when I read the name OC, tell Wallaby. :D:D:D

[ElizabethHerts]

OC, she is 23, single, and born in Russia.

[Olde Crone]

Julia is very likely to be Leah.

Ju - Leah.

OC

[Muggins in Sussex]

How old is Fanny Friedman please?

(Some of us have a huge interest in Friedmans, lol, particularly ones called Fanny!)

OC

OC, she is 23, single, and born in Russia.

Looking again, I think the name is Freedman, not Friedman - sorry :o - I wasn't sure whether the age was 23 or 29, Elizabeth :confused: She is a buttonhole hand

Julia is very likely to be Leah.

Ju - Leah.

OC

Thanks, OC

[ElizabethHerts]

When I search for "Jane Nishmas" I get this, which I can't view:

Ian Naazemzaadeh - Ancestry.com
search.ancestry.com/.../sse.dll?...
Name: Jane Nishmas. Birth: year. Death: dd mm 1938 - city, London, England. England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005. Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries ...

Iain Naazemzaadeh - Ancestry.com
search.ancestry.com/.../sse.dll?...
Block all search.ancestry.com results
Name: Jane Nishmas. Birth: year. Death: dd mm 1938 - city, London, England. England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005. Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries

[ElizabethHerts]

Looking again, I think the name is Freedman, not Freidman - sorry :o - I wasn't sure whetehr the age was 23 or 29, Elizabeth :confused:



Yes, it's Freedman on better scrutiny.
It could be either 23 or 29, but I'd say 23 because it looks like the other 3.

[Muggins in Sussex]

When I search for "Jane Nishmas" I get this, which I can't view:

Ian Naazemzaadeh - Ancestry.com
search.ancestry.com/.../sse.dll?...
Name: Jane Nishmas. Birth: year. Death: dd mm 1938 - city, London, England. England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005. Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries ...

Iain Naazemzaadeh - Ancestry.com
search.ancestry.com/.../sse.dll?...
Block all search.ancestry.com results
Name: Jane Nishmas. Birth: year. Death: dd mm 1938 - city, London, England. England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005. Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries

How odd Elizabeth :confused: - I get the birth and death records as normal

[Olde Crone]

Friedman/Freedman, all the same in Wallaby's game, lol!

Hmmm....maybe a red herring but

Fanny Friedman married Harry SILVERMAN in Dec 1914 (Sheffield, but don't let that put you off, Hebrews could marry whereever they liked).

OC

[Muggins in Sussex]

Friedman/Freedman, all the same in Wallaby's game, lol!

Hmmm....maybe a red herring but

Fanny Friedman married Harry SILVERMAN in Dec 1914 (Sheffield, but don't let that put you off, Hebrews could marry whereever they liked).

OC

Thanks OC - It may be a red hering - I can't work it out - but the 1919 Silverman birth I found is in Ecclesall Bierlow, which I believe is in Sheffield.

Do you know when Fanny died?

[Olde Crone]

I thought the word Nishmas was familiar. It is very unlikely to be their real surname. It is the name of a prayer of thanksgiving.

As many first generation Jewish immigrants did not understand the western concept of surnames, this is likely to just be a word they plucked from the air when asked for their surname. They may have stuck to this name, of course, but they may also have used several other names in their daily/religious life.

Happy hunting! *Sniggers rudely*

OC

[Muggins in Sussex]

Thanks for that OC - I think!!!

[Olde Crone]

I've seen the birth you refer to in 1919 and all I can say is that it MIGHT be that Fanny Friedman used the "maiden name" of Nishmas when the birth was registered.

In Wallaby's tree we found the same woman using four (or was it five?) different maiden names when registering a child. The intention wasn't to deceive, it was that they really didn't comprehend what they were being asked. Hebrews didn't have fixed surnames and even the words "your father" could be taken to mean any adult male who had the care and upbringing of them, including an older brother - or in this case, the head of the household where she lived (even if he WAS in the pokey, lol).

So - could be her. Only a birth cert will tell, or maybe confuse even more!

OC

[kiterunner]

Think I've found Morris in 1891 - a boarder in Manchester & single - Place of birth given as Poland :confused:

Poland wasn't an independent country in those days and part of it belonged to Russia.

[Muggins in Sussex]

I've seen the birth you refer to in 1919 and all I can say is that it MIGHT be that Fanny Friedman used the "maiden name" of Nishmas when the birth was registered.

In Wallaby's tree we found the same woman using four (or was it five?) different maiden names when registering a child. The intention wasn't to deceive, it was that they really didn't comprehend what they were being asked. Hebrews didn't have fixed surnames and even the words "your father" could be taken to mean any adult male who had the care and upbringing of them, including an older brother - or in this case, the head of the household where she lived (even if he WAS in the pokey, lol).

So - could be her. Only a birth cert will tell, or maybe confuse even more!

OC

Many thanks for that information OC - I am about to send off for the birth cert

Poland wasn't an independent country in those days and part of it belonged to Russia.

Oh yes! Thanks OC

[Olde Crone]

Kate

I agree that part of Poland belonged to Russia at that time, but we have found that people felt very strongly about where they were born, no matter who was laying claim to it on the day they were born, lol. Thus, their birthplace as given by them, was a perceived one and not necessarily the official country.

OC

[Muggins in Sussex]

Kate

I agree that part of Poland belonged to Russia at that time, but we have found that people felt very strongly about where they were born, no matter who was laying claim to it on the day they were born, lol. Thus, their birthplace as given by them, was a perceived one and not necessarily the official country.

OC

That's interesting, OC

I've just sent for the cert - estimated date of dispatch 10th Feb - if it's any help to Wallaby/you/ anyone else working on Wallaby's tree, I'll gladly send copies

Hopefully the cert will show one way or t'other whether this family is related to me - but even if they are not, I'm finding this all jolly interesting - and learning a lot! :)

[Merry]

I have't read this thread properly but does it matter the 1919 birth reg person seems to have died in 1990, or is that proved to be a different person?

[HarrysMum]

Thanks OC........I was wracking my brain trying to think where I'd heard those two names.....lol

I was trying to fit them with Muggins and it's Wallaby who has them....

[borobabs]

Oh yes well known names Libby lol

[Muggins in Sussex]

I have't read this thread properly but does it matter the 1919 birth reg person seems to have died in 1990, or is that proved to be a different person?

Oh Merry, you are quite right. :o So much for my new methodical way of working!! :d:d:d - I had a "D" by the name on my list - yes I now have a list :d:d - but think I must have looked for the name only on FreeBMD :mad:

So I am now almost certain that this family is not mine - but I won't forget about Wallaby when the cert arrives

[Muggins in Sussex]

I've seen the birth you refer to in 1919 and all I can say is that it MIGHT be that Fanny Friedman used the "maiden name" of Nishmas when the birth was registered.

So - could be her. Only a birth cert will tell, or maybe confuse even more!

OC

The cert arrived yesterday - it looks as though you were right OC :)

The family is definitely not mine, (and Eric died in 1980) but am posting the cert here in case it is of any help/interest to Wallaby or anyone else researching her tree

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/djangocrystal/ENSilverman2-1-1-1.jpg

[Kit]

How old is Fanny Friedman please?

(Some of us have a huge interest in Friedmans, lol, particularly ones called Fanny!)

OC

No, absolutely not. We are NOT going to have Wallaby and Muggins connected. Either tree by itself is hard enough.

[Olde Crone]

Muggins

I've alerted Wallaby to this thread and to the certificate, I'm sure she will be pleased to add it to her collection!

Thankyou.

OC

[Olde Crone]

Kit

We cross posted but

HAHAHAHAHA! What a nightmare that would be!

(But at least it wouldn't have the blitherin' Allenders in it.)

OC

[Wallaby]

The cert arrived yesterday - it looks as though you were right OC :)

The family is definitely not mine, (and Eric died in 1980) but am posting the cert here in case it is of any help/interest to Wallaby or anyone else researching her tree

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/djangocrystal/ENSilverman2-1-1-1.jpg



Hiya Joan... Hi Everyone,

Thanks for thinking of me. OC tipped me off to look at this cert. No obvious link to me as yet, but my research has gone off on a tangent & I don't know what names I'm going to be linked to these days, so it might come in handy, you never know.

I've now found a sister to my grandfather Louis. Esther Baila Friedman married Maurice Abramson in Dublin in 1887, then went AWOL, but found a death for Maurice & the name Erlich is connected in some way to the Abramson/Abrahamson family.

I've also found another brother Philip Friedman/Freeman aka Ralf (Raphael) who married Sarah Levy in Dublin in 1880. They had 9 children, but only 5 daughters survived to marry & so far I've found marriages to names like:

Russell with ties to Belfast,
Berg with ties to Liverpool & Manchester & possibly London
Harris with ties to Dublin & Orpington, Kent & probably the link to Ada Levin nee Harris who Louis lodged with in Dublin.

I've had some great help from Donnybrook hospital for info on Philip & so my search goes on... while I'm waiting for my book to be accessed by another publisher, will keep you all posted & good luck to you all....

Wallaby

[Wallaby]

I know you won't want to go there, but on posts 64/65 on my Hospital Records F&R thread I compiled a list of all Friedman/Freedman/Freeman names on the leeds censuses + other names that I was interested in at the time. Plus any other stuff that was found for that name.

Wallaby

[Wallaby]

I've had a good chuckle reading this thread from beginning...

So far I've found the "F" name as Friedman, Freedman & Freeman & it seems that was an intended evolution. But I've also found it wrongly transcribed as:
Fredman, Fridman & Fredmine! All of them turned out to be on my tree.

The key to my 'Fs" seems to be in Dublin & the records are a nightmare with many deaths not being registered, but the plus side is that the certs are much cheaper to buy at only €6 euros, as opposed to the £9.25 our GRO charge, so I've been able to speculate & that has found some success.

Wallaby

[Wallaby]

Give me a shout if you find yourself linked to any of these names I've mentioned!

Good luck!

Wallaby

[Muggins in Sussex]

Lovely to hear from you, Wallaby and good luck to you, too

If ever you want it, I'll gladly e-mail/post the Siverman/Freidman/Freedman/Nishmas cert to you, as it is now in my growing collection of "wrong" certs:d

Best wishes

Joan

[Wallaby]

Lovely to hear from you, Wallaby and good luck to you, too

If ever you want it, I'll gladly e-mail/post the Siverman/Freidman/Freedman/Nishmas cert to you, as it is now in my growing collection of "wrong" certs:d

Best wishes

Joan

I was able to drag it from your post thanks Joan. If you find a link to me, you won't need to buy another Freedman/Friedman cert... because I have them all lol!
In fact, I think I have every cert beginning with "F" that were born, married or died in Ireland! :d


Wallaby

[Muggins in Sussex]

Good luck Wallaby

Wouldn't that be a wonderful story if we turned out to be related :):):):) - Sadly, I think it's not to be.

Am really looking forward to reading your book.

Best wishes

Joan