1911 Isle of Man

[Olde Crone]

I wonder if someone would be kind enough to look at the 1911 for the IOM.

I am looking for Jane Holden/Holding, born 1862 Manchester England.

Please don't spend any money - if she is there I will buy credits, but at the moment I'm not sure which site to look for her!

Thankyou in advance.

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

The only Jane Holden I can see was born c. 1840, OC. She is the mother of Henry, who was born at sea.
There is also a married sister, ELizabeth Beatrice Taylor, and a nephew, Douglas Holden Taylor.

Let me know if you want more information on this one.

There are quite a few Holdens on the Isle of Man.

[ElizabethHerts]

Off to Pilates, so if I don't reply I'm not ignoring you, OC!
If noone else is around I can look again for you on the mainland if you like.

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou very much Elizabeth, that is not her. (I know of this family)

Mine went to IOM in 1899 as a servant and may have married, I just don't know. Please don't bother looking for her on the mainland as there are far too many to choose from and I wouldn't know who was right and who was wrong!

Thankyou again.

OC

[Merry]

I can't find her in the IoM in 1901 either :o

[Merry]

Erm, is she the dau of James and Ellen who was bap 10th Aug 1862 at Man Cathedral? What have they done with her in 1871? :confused::eek:

[Olde Crone]

Thanks Merry. I wonder if she married/died? She was the secret sister of my great grandfather. She was put into the workhouse as an imbecile but is later classified as deaf and dumb. She was released after the death of her parents into the care of her kinsman, a vicar from the Isle of Man. Unfortunately I forgot to write down the vicar's name (many years ago) and I haven't a clue who he was - he wasn't a Holden or a Grimshaw though. (Her mother was a Grimshaw from the IOM).

OC

[Olde Crone]

We cross posted - yes, that's her baptism.

OC

[Merry]

Well, this must be a coincidence then.....

1862 Births:

HOLDEN Jane Saint George Manchester STG/80/10
(FreeBMD says Q3)

1864 Deaths:

HOLDEN Jane 1 Saint George Manchester STG/63/328
(FreeBMD says Q1)

The birth should be for your Jane, but the death could be a coincidence!

[Merry]

(Her mother was a Grimshaw from the IOM).



That's like saying did I know Agatha's maiden surname was Ariel! lol

[Olde Crone]

Yes, strange as it seems, I am sure that IS a coincidence, because the Jane in the workhouse was definitely the daughter of James and Ellen - the address was the same.

OC

[Merry]

Ah, when was she in the workhouse?

(just going to eat my soup, back shortly!)

[Olde Crone]

She went into the workhouse in 1864, shortly after her youngest brother (my GGF) was born. On entry she was classified as an imbecile. She is there in 71 and 81. She was released in 1899, a couple of months after her father died.

OC

[Merry]

How awful to end up in the workhouse because you were deaf and dumb (do we say deaf mute now?)

I still can't see her in 1871 and 1881. Do I take it you haven't found her in 1891 and 1901 as yet?

(My soup isn't ready yet!)

[Olde Crone]

No, haven't found her in 1891 or 1901. I think she was Jane HOLDING in 1881.

I have to go out now but will be back this evening and will try to find the notes I made at the time of this discovery!

OC

[Merry]

lol!! Have a nice afternoon.

[Olde Crone]

Naturally, I cannot find my original notes although I have found a pencilled set of the back of an envelope variety.

I do recall making the original notes in the Records Office at Preston, round about 1984, from the workhouse admissions book. I'm going to ask my bro to go and have another look and get a photocopy for me.

Let this be a lesson to you all - make proper notes, say when and where you got the information AND file the information somewhere logical. GRRRR.

OC

[Merry]

lol I did find this post on Rootsweb from 2003 and wondered if somewhere along the line various different notes had got......erm........amalgamated?

James HOLDEN b 1826 Chorley married ?
Ellen ? b 1823 Isle of Man
Joseph b 1855 Manchester
James b 1860 Manchester
William b 1864 Manchester

and a possible, not fitted in yet, Jane Holden, b 1862. Her parents are
James and Ellen though so she almost certainly one of mine. I suspect that
she didn't survive childhood as I've found nothing else on her.
A real long shot at this point is Emily Holden, b about 1853, Isle of Man.
In 1881 she was in Chorlton Union Workhouse, an imbecile. Nothing to
connect her apart from the fact that she was born in the I.O.M. and Ellen
is the only Holden in Manchester at the time with an I.O.M. connection so far.



The writer of that post is not you, but I think a very close relative!

[Merry]

Well, as you might imagine, that Emily is a typical Holden (except she may not have been a Holden!) in that she doesn't want to appear in the right places.....The only thing I can say is that James Holden wouldn't appear to be her father or her stepfather, though I don't know who her stepfather is!

This is what I can see at the moment (in date order, rather than the order I found it!):

1851 IoM census:

Philip and Mary McArdle with a raft of children aged 8m to 17 yrs. Mary is probably not the mother of them all as as she is only 30)

Manx BMD birth entry (note at this stage there is only one birth reg for an Emily McArdle in IoM):

1852: MCARDLE EMILY HENRIETTA DOUGLAS A1 9

1861 census I can't find the family (that's the crucial census, of course!!)

1871 IoM census:

Mary Holden widow aged 47 b Belfast (same place as Mary McArdle in 1851 though she has lost another three years)
One of the children from the 1851 census - henry McArdle aged 25
Emily McArdle aged 19
Mary Holden 9
Ann Holden 5

All children b IoM

1881 census

Chorley Union Workhouse
Emily Holden aged 28 b IoM Imbecile for 9 years.

So, it would be good to find Emily and her mother in 1861 to see if is there was a Mr Holden with them, though I guess there's only a slim chance of him being closely connected with yours.

I can't find a Holden McArdle marriage in FreeBMD or Manx BMD, but have never played with Manx BMD before, so might be doing it wrong! Plus 1000 ways to spell McArdle!

[Merry]

Oops, missed out a bit.....

I found a marriage for an Emily McArdle in 1877 in IoM and thought that must eliminate the Emily McArdle above from being the one called Holden in the W/H in 1881. However, there are two (why does that always happen?) Emily McArdles on the IoM 1871 census, both exactly the same age, so that marriage might be for the other one and I have yet to work out if that can be proved.

[Merry]

Maybe this is Mary McArdle grossly mis-spelled/mistranscribed (it's the same spelling on ManxBMD and FS though)

groom's name: John Holden
bride's name: Mary Mccarral
marriage date: 25 Apr 1861
marriage place: Douglas, Isle Of Man
groom's father's name: John Holden
bride's father's name: Daniel Collins
groom's marital status: Single
bride's marital status: Widowed
indexing project (batch) number: M01052-1
system origin: Isle of Man-EASy
source film number: 454992

Oh yes, that fits, as here is her first marriage:

name: Philip Mcardle
event: Marriage
event date: 11 Jun 1839
event place: Douglas, Isle of Man
gender: Male
spouse: Mary Anne Collins
digital folder number: 004501016


So.....how many John Holdens, son of John Holden, do you have?!!

[Merry]

Married 25 Apr 1861


The 1861 census was taken 7th April and still I can't find them! lol

[Merry]

The 1852 birth reg I posted for Emily Henrietta McArdle is for the 'other' Emily, parents James and Jane not Philip and Mary (Family Search)

[Merry]

Hmmm....this whole IoM link could be a red herring....

I found two Emily McArdle's b 1852 in Douglas. (both on 1871 census, only one registered)

I thought one became Emily Holden in Chorlton W/H in 1881 (the one who had had a stepfather called John Holden) and the other got married in IoM.

This looked even more likely to be the scenario as I know the Emily who was registered at birth as Emily Henrietta did get married in IoM:

name: James Jelly
event: Marriage
event date: 13 Jan 1874
event place: Braddan, Isle of Man
gender: Male
marital status: Single
father: Richard Jelly
spouse: Emily Henrietta Mcardle
spouse's marital status: Single
spouse's father: James Mcardle
digital folder number: 004494732

However, the Manx BMD marriage index doesn't have the above marriage, only one for Emily McArdle in 1877! So, if there are two Emilys and two marriages, who is Emily Holden in the W/H?

I know the 1874 marriage transcript above is accurate as I've seen a marriage notice in the IoM newspaper. I can't find anything more about the 1877 marriage. Here's the Manx BMD entry:

1877 McArdle Emily Douglas Registry Office Douglas A2 66 DIS

I can't see a way to work out who she married, but she may well be Philip McArdles daughter, sending us right back to square one!!

[Merry]

Just posting this because it was hard to find!

name: Emely Mccardle Collins
event: Christening
event date: 30 Nov 1852
event place: Douglas, Isle of Man
father: Philip Mccardle
mother: Mary Collins <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<later Mrs John Holden.
digital folder number: 004501082

[Merry]

And here are the baps for the two Holden children from Mary Collins second marriage:

name: Maria Elizabeta Holden
event: Christening
event date: 05 Jan 1862
event place: Douglas, Isle of Man
gender: Female
father: Joannis Holden
mother: Maria Holden
digital folder number: 004501098


name: Anna Holden
event: Christening
event date: 27 Dec 1865
event place: Douglas, Isle of Man
gender: Female
father: Joannis Holden
mother: Mariae Collins
digital folder number: 004501098

and the death of John Holden:

name: Joannes Holden
event: Burial
event date: 15 Mar 1871
event place: Douglas, Isle of Man
death age: 48
digital folder number: 004501245

So born about 1823.

and his widow:

name: Mary Holden
event: Burial
event date: 26 Jul 1875
event place: Braddan, Isle of Man
death age: 52
digital folder number: 004495785


And all that is of no help whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lololol

[Merry]

1877 marriages:

1877 Cowell John Thomas Douglas Registry Office Douglas A2 66 DIS
1877 McArdle Emily Douglas Registry Office Douglas A2 66 DIS
1877 O'Connor Philip Douglas Registry Office Douglas A2 66 DIS
1877 Quine Esther Douglas Registry Office Douglas A2 66 DIS

Esther Quine married John T Cowell, as there's a John and Ester Cowell with his M-i-L Mary Quire on the IoM 1881 census. So that leaves the third (??) mystery Emily marrying Philip O'Connor..........

Found them in 1881. That Emily is aged 26 in 1881, so only a couple of years different to the one who was the daughter of Philip McArdle and Mary, so she could be the same young woman.

*sigh*

Time to start the chilli con carne for dinner I think........

[Olde Crone]

Oh Merry, you have been so busy while I've been out gadding again!

I need a glass of wine to take this all in. I do have a feeling though, that my Very Close Relative got in a muddle with imbecilic Holdens in workhouses - as far as I remember, my Jane Holden was in the Manchester workhouse.

However.......Chorley is quite an interesting connection and Emily might be another relative. On the IOM was a fairly well to do family - mother called Janetta Walker nee Holden. I have traced her back (and you helped a lot with that trace, remember Quarton Levitt Houlden?). Although that branch of Holdens doesn't immediately appear to have any connection to mine, there is an extremely tantalising coincidence in that my great grandmother, who married into the bog standard Holdens, was known to the rich lot! (A wedding gift).

Sorry to ramble on but this side has always been a complicated mystery.

Going to get my glass!)

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

OC, I have looked for Jane Holden in Manchester b 1862 in the Manchester Workhouse Records on FMP, but I found nothing that matched, unfortunately.

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/manchester-collection/workhouse-registers

[Olde Crone]

Thanks Elizabeth.

This so strange, I mean I really didn't make this up! I think I will have to wait to get sight of the workhouse registers. I suppose I might have gone potty at the time and written down Jane instead of Emily, but I don't think so, I was far more on the ball 30 years ago!

OC

[tenterfieldjulie]

You are kidding me!! 30 years ago..
Why you would have been a baby surely!!

[Olde Crone]

*Smirks coyly at julie*

Merry, I forgot to say thankyou for all your hard work yesterday. I can assure you I do appreciate it, as always.

OC

[Merry]

That's OK! I really wanted to find out who that Emily Holden was, but as usual she wasn't straightforward (making me think she must be to do with you!!)