Hmmmm - William Gloster

[samesizedfeet]

Little bit of confusion here and I can't seem to untangle it myself.

This is William Charles Thomas GLOSTER in 1901: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LNDRG13_239_240-0394&fn=William+C+T&ln=Gloster&st=r&ssrc=pt_t1483982_p-303988853_kpidz0q3d-303988853z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid&pid=15692507

He is aged 29 born London (all fits with previous info on him)

He is married to Emily M A Gloster aged 26 and has a son William aged 12 (so c1888). Which is where it gets confusing because if William is 12 then Emily was only 14 and William sr 17 when he was born.

They married in 1894 in Holborn http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=freebmdmarriage&h=11091929&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t1483982_p-303988853_kpidz0q3d-303988853z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid

I'd be inclined to believe that the age on the census is wrong - but I can't see a decent enough hit for William Gloster in even vaguely the right area in 1899/1900 for him to be 1 or 2.
There is however a suitable William James born in Holborn in 1889

In 1911 they have 5 children with them but not WIlliam http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2352&iid=rg14_01209_0155_03&fn=William&ln=Gloster&st=r&ssrc=pt_t1483982_p-303988853_kpidz0q3d-303988853z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid_m1&pid=2383636

but they do say children alive = 5, children died = 1.


Erm.... I'm not sure where I need help here. I might be speaking out loud just to make sure I'm right to have a few doubts about him. I've not tried to find him in 1891 yet as it's only just occurred to me so I'm off to do that now

[marquette]

Hi Zoe

I was looking at your 4TOGG thread but I cannot see any link to the GLOSTERs in my tree.

I have a first cousin 5 times removed William Iliffe GLOSTER who was the son of William GLOSTER and Eliza ILIFFE.

William GLOSTER Senior was born in 1800 to William and Mary (nee POLE) in Brownsover and baptised in Cunliffe Upon Dunmore, both parts of Rugby Warwickshire.

William Iliffe GLOSTER was apparently born in Foleshill Warwickshire and Eliza is a sister to my 5xg grandfather Joseph ILIFFE and they were born in Brinklow Warwickshire.

They all ended up in Coventry but I will have another look for any links to London area and a look at this William.

Di

[samesizedfeet]

Di,

Well mine are originally from around that area (ish). My actual link Charles is very indecisive about where he's born though - variations are: Birmingham in WIltshire; Matlock, Derbyshire; Birmingham in Yorkshire; and his baptism is in Handsworth, Staffordshire.

He's one of my constant nightmares.


Z

[marquette]

Hi again

Just following you in thinking out loud.....

I had at look at the 1901 census - that entry for William b 1889 makes no sense at all.

Even if he was born when Emily was only 14, he should have been registered under Miles not Gloster, as they did not marry until 1894. There does not seem to be any mistake about a different family.

I am also not sure, but William might be in the Military in 1911 (his age is 2 years older b1887, but Somers Town is close to Holborn), so that would leave another child that died before 1911 (Charles Henry I think).

I have looked and found WCT Gloster with his parents in 1891, and I think I found Emily at home, no sign of a base-born son though.

Going back to have another look at 1891 !!

Di

[Merry]

William James Gloster b 1889 died in 1951, so he can't be the dec'd son on the 1911 census. Thereford IF he is the same William they have with them in 1901 then he just isn't their son (at least not 'a son of this marriage'.....read on....!). It's just irritating I can't see him yet in 1891 as that might prove if he is the same person and how he fits in with the others. Perhas he was taken in by Wm and Emily as he had no living parents and then joined the army? (read on though!!)

[Merry]

I wondered if this William is the father of Wm James?

Marriages Mar 1889
Gloster William Holborn 1b 789
Harlow Priscilla Holborn 1b 789
Ruddock James William Holborn 1b 789
WARWICK Jane Maitlda Holborn 1b 789
Warwick Jane Matilda Holborn 1b 789


He married Priscilla Harlow. In 1891 (below) we have 16 year-old married Priscilla Gloster (no child or husband with her though!) in the houshold of her 'parents' who are called Baker, not Harlow, but as there is a 'sister' for Priscilla called Gertrude Harlow, there's clearly been a couple of marriages for Priscilla's mum, or something like that.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LNDRG12_217_219-0354&fn=Priscilla&ln=Hoster&st=r&ssrc=&pid=9192879

Then Priscilla does die:

Deaths Mar 1893
Gloster Priscilla Martha 18 Holborn 1b 481

So if she did have a child might he have been passed to a relative? Or, did she actually marry WCT Gloster in 1889 (but he didn't bother with his other names at the ceremony?) but by the time the census came round he was back with his parents who either didn't know abut the marriage or had decided to ignore it for census purposes. By the time he married in 1894 Priscilla had died so he could say he was a bachelor which saved questions perhaps?

We need to find the child in 1891!

[Merry]

Just realised you don't have the 1894 marriage cert, so he might have said widower!

In 1911 the question is about children of the current marriage so Wm jr wouldn't make any difference to this.

Priscilla's mother's remarriage:

Marriages Mar 1889
BAKER Frank Holborn 1b 688
Dickinson Robert Holborn 1b 688
Harlow Priscilla Holborn 1b 688
INGRAM Amelia Louise Holborn 1b 688

and her first marriage:

Marriages Sep 1873
Aldridge Priscilla Ann Holborn 1b 993
COOK William Holborn 1b 993
Dawson Laura Holborn 1b 993
Harlow James Holborn 1b 993


Priscilla's birth:

Births Dec 1874
Harlow Priscilla Martha Pancras 1b 60

This above family were tog in 1881.

[Merry]

I see that in 1891 when WCT Gloster is with his parents aged 19, there is no marital status for him.

[Merry]

There's a WW1 Pensions Record for a Wm Gloster on Ancestry. I wasn't sure it was Wm James until I got near the end where his full name is quoted (page 539 of 5198). he was only 5 feet tall, served 12 years from 1905 suffered frostbite which led to the amputaion of some toes (and on one page I'm not sure about whether he also lost a foot, but I might have misread that). He also suffered malaria and shell shock.

I was looking for a next of kin, without any luck.

[Merry]

Oh and he's still missing in 1891!!

[samesizedfeet]

Catching up............

[samesizedfeet]

My head's spinning quite a bit if I'm perfectly honest.

Priscilla Gloster is only 16 in that 1891 - so if she were the mother of William c1889 we're still looking at a 14/15 year old mother aren't we? Much more likely I know given the flexibility of ages and timings and given the possibility of a marriage - but, still......

[samesizedfeet]

And given that the marriage was 1st quarter of 1889 - we are looking at the census almost precisely 2 years later - so she would have been 14 or thereabouts at her wedding.

I'm loathe to buy certificates for what is technically a branch - but I do love a mystery. I have another one coming up soon.... although I think I've solved that one :)

[Merry]

I feel 99.999999% that the 1889 marriage is for that Priscilla and as you say she was only 14. Whether she is the mother of William James and the wife of your William is the mystery! It would explain your William having a son with him in 1901 though. I'm thinking if Priscilla was the mother of Wm James then it's likely he was with her in 1891 but was missed from the census for some reason or another.


What a shame none of the entries seem to be within the LMA stuff :mad:

[Merry]

I know given the flexibility of ages and timings and given the possibility of a marriage - but, still......


Not that flexible - we have her birth reg!

[samesizedfeet]

Pairing up the military record Merry found and the 1911 Census Di found those two are the same person.

His record shows he served in Mauritius until December 1911 and the 1911 census for his unit says "Mauritius and South Africa".

[samesizedfeet]

Not that flexible - we have her birth reg!

Oooh. Yes. Definitely only 14 then (birth Dec Q 1874, marriage mar Q 1889). Aaaaaaah.

Was that even legal then?

[samesizedfeet]

I'm getting busy trying to find a marriage for him. But as he was only 5ft with the possibility he only had one foot I'm not over hopeful.

[Merry]

Yes it was min 12 for girls and 14 for boys until 1929 when the lower age for marriage was fixed at 16 in England & Wales.

I have never seen a marriage for someone proven to be 14, before!

[Merry]

I'm getting busy trying to find a marriage for him. But as he was only 5ft with the possibility he only had one foot I'm not over hopeful.

lol! Poor chap!

There are two possibles (William J Gloster). The first was 1917 and the other one in the 1930s (from memory). Maybe if you cross ref with the electoral rolls you will be able to work out if the two marriages are for men with the right middle name.

[samesizedfeet]

Ooooh - he married in 1917 and had 3 children.

None of which moves me any further on as to who his mother and father are. I'm going o need that birth certificate aren't I?

Anyway - delving deeper into those military records - he is named as William James Gloster, and the marriage is under William J too.

[Merry]

Will you recognise his father (ie separate him from other Wm Glosters) on Wm James's birth cert? (assuming Wm James is Priscilla's son).

You could get the first marriage cert, or maybe it would be better to get the second marriage cert (as you know that is your man) and if it says widower assume the rest?!! (*slaps own hand*)

It's difficult to know the cheapest way to solve the mystery.

[samesizedfeet]

As I went to answer this I realised I now can't even remember which blooming William Gloster his father is.


If he's started being a Fret Cutter/Marquettier by 1889 then yes. If he's still working in brass then all my Glosters are metal workers of some description so it may be difficult. The address on the birth certificate may help. But then she may be having it in the Workhouse which wouldn't help.

William senior's father Charles was a brass/metal worker so the marriage may not narrow down which William he is.

I'm just going for a little sit in the corner to work out if I want to know to the tune of 10/20/30 pounds. Because once I start if the first one doesn't answer it I'll have to keep going. And he's a branch...... he's my 2 x gt grandmother's brother's grandson.