View Full Version : "Toxteth Park Reformatory" 9 & 11 Park Hill Rd
I am trying to trace parents of Margaret Wilson born about 1854 in Preston, father William (Railway Labourer), she married Joseph Boyle (have had a previous thread on him) in 1876 she was 22 at time.
The marriage cert. states that her residence at time of marriage was 9 Parkhill Road Toxteh Park.
Looking up an 1881 Census for one of the witnesses (Jane Isabella Wilson), I found Jane at the above address. Is there any one who could tell me whether Margeret Wilson was at this address in 1871?
Tilly Mint
04-01-12, 17:28
Found this, Wendy.....There is a Miss Wilson a schoolmistress there..
http://www.missing-ancestors.com/toxteth_park_reformatory_school%20park%20hill%20he ad%20l%27pool.htm
Thanks, I will presume for now that the schoolmistress is Jane, the witness at Margaret's wedding as she held the position from 1872, would you perhaps know if there was a way of finding out if Margaret was ever a scholar?
Tilly Mint
04-01-12, 17:55
I've pm-d you, Wendy.
Is this problem resolved now?
Tilly Mint
04-01-12, 20:52
I showed an old post from another site i found - i advised Wendy that she contacts Preston R.O. as they seem to hold info in to this place, Wendy, said she would contact them to see if they can help her out Merry.
I'm still having a root around to see if i can find anything else though.....
I showed an old post from another site i found - i advised Wendy that she contacts Preston R.O. as they seem to hold info in to this place, Wendy, said she would contact them to see if they can help her out Merry.
I'm still having a root around to see if i can find anything else though.....
Oh, that's good :):):)
At first I thought this might be Margaret:
1861 census RG9; Piece: 3131; Folio: 26; Page: 45
Chandler St Preston, Lancs
William Wilson head m 41 labourer b North Meols, Lancs
Ellen Wilson wife m 38 housekeeper b Salinesbury (prob Salesbury) Lancs
Oliver 18 labourer
Grace 15 cotton weaver
Jane A 13 throstle spinner
Margaret 6 scholar
John 2 scholar
Thomas 3m infant
all children and sons and daughters, surname Wilson, b Preston.
.............but on further inspection Margaret's age may be mistranscribed and may say either 10 or 11 (where the top of the round bit of the 6 should be it has been written over). The same family in 1851 already has Margaret aged a couple of months, though it's possible I'm wrong about the age and the first Margaret died.
Does your Margaret's age stay constant after her marriage?
Oh, probaby forget that as I didn't realise Margaret is already in the Toxteth reformatory in 1871! (assuming it's her - aged 15 b Lancs)
So, time to look again in 1861..........
Oooh, maybe they did have two Margarets:
name: Margaret Wilson
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 11 Aug 1850
baptism/christening place: SAINT JOHN,PRESTON,LANCASHIRE,ENGLAND
death date: 25 Jan 1852
father's name: William Wilson
mother's name: Ellen
indexing project (batch) number: C00713-5
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 93989
name: Margaret Wilson
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 02 Mar 1855
baptism/christening place: Preston, Lancashire, England
father's name: William Wilson
mother's name: Ellen Wilson
indexing project (batch) number: C03685-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1278756
Looking again at the 1851 census Margaret looks to be one month which would not fit with the first bap, but it;s possible it says 9 mths! If she was 1 mth then there's no birth reg. There is a death in 1852 to fit, but there are clearly quite a few Margarets to choose from!
I suppose if the death cert in Q1 1852 proves to be a child of Wm and Ellen then there's a good chance the Ellen on the 1861 is listed as aged 6 and is the one you are looking for.
I briefly looked for Wm and Ellen and/or the other children in 1871 but found nothing conclusive. The only positive match was Oliver who was married with a couple of children.
Oh, probaby forget that as I didn't realise Margaret is already in the Toxteth reformatory in 1871! (assuming it's her - aged 15 b Lancs)
So, time to look again in 1861..........
I could not trace the 1871 census with her at the reformatory:confused:
kiterunner
05-01-12, 08:36
I could not trace the 1871 census with her at the reformatory:confused:
Piece 3802, folio 126, page 50.
Thanks Kate, found it finally (the long way round), was not picking it up via my normal search.
Does your Margaret's age stay constant after her marriage?
Her age stays constant in all the census returns I have, i.e.
1881 = 27,
1891 = 37,
(don't have the 1901 details here at work)
1911 = 57
Her age stays constant in all the census returns I have, i.e.
1881 = 27,
1891 = 37,
(don't have the 1901 details here at work)
1911 = 57
We don't need to worry about that now we know she wasn't born back in 1850ish! We now have her 6 and 15 in 1861 and 1871 respectively.
Here's the 1851 census:
Nixon's Row, Preston, Lancs
William Wilson head m 29 coal yard labourer
Ellen Wilson wife m 28
Oliver 8
Jane 5
Grace 3
Margaret 1m (maybe 9mths)
All children above are sons and daughters, surname Wilson, everyone b Preston (so that's different to 1861!)
The child Margaret above must be the same child as the bap I posted earlier, because on Lancs OPC the family address is transcribed:
Baptisms: 11 Aug 1850 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Margaret Wilson - Child of William Wilson & Ellen
Abode: Nixon's Row
Occupation: Carter
Baptised by: John Kitton Curate
Register: Baptisms 1848 - 1850, Page 372, Entry 2976
Source: LDS Film 93988
Annoyingly, burials 1827-1858 are not transcribed yet!
There are two versions of the baptism for the younger Margaret:
Baptisms: 2 Mar 1855 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Margaret Wilson - Child of William Wilson & Ellen
Abode: Well St
Occupation: Carter
Baptised by: Certified by W. Walling
Register: Baptisms 1854 - 1856, Page 303, Entry 2417
Source: LDS Film 93989
Baptisms: 2 Mar 1855 All Saints, Preston, Lancashire, England
Margaret Wilson - Child of William Wilson & Ellen
Abode: Kent Street
Occupation: carter
Baptised by: W. Walling
Register: Baptisms 1848 - 1866, Page 66, Entry 526
Source: FHL Film 1544765
There are numerous baptisms for the family on Lancs OPC and one child before Oliver, who is another Margaret. (It's hard to be certain every single entry is for the same family as, out of the whole list, there are only two where the same address is recorded!)
If you need Ellen's maiden name it might be easier to get Oliver's birth cert as there is only one to choose from!
50p says this is the baptism of William Wilson!
Baptisms: 2 Sep 1821 St Cuthbert, North Meols, Lancashire, England
William Wilson - Son of Oliver Wilson & Jane
Abode: Banks
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: Jos. Docker Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1835, Page 117, Entry 935
Source: LDS Film 1068944
You can tell I should be taking down the Christmas decs and am putting it off - now it's time for the school run!!
Thanks Merry, when I previously tried to track Margaret's parents, there were a number to choose from but an Ellen with the Maiden name Nightingale stood out as she seemed to have alot of children, when you mentioned Oliver earlier it occured to me that I had looked up most of these births and kept a record (11 so far all registered in Preston). I just have not been certain that this is the correct Margaret as there are a number of them. So if this is the correct Margaret, I at least have some ground work done with regards to her siblings and mother's maiden name.
Olde Crone
05-01-12, 17:04
In 1843 there are two Oliver Wilsons born in Lancs (LAncsbmd) but the one born Prston does indeed have MMN as Nightingale. (Other one is MMN Ball).
OC
OC, the other children that Merry mentioned in the 1851 census also tie up to mother maiden name Nightingale (the ages for Grace and Jane accidently swoped though;)), William also married Ellen Nightingale in 1843 (Also Lancs BMD), the year Oliver was born. Just wish I could say for certain it is her. Will have to see what the RO replies with regards the reformatory stay I suppose:(
I was bothered that the first Margaret was baptised just a short time before Oliver, but I wonder if she was born before the marriage and baptised just after? The marriage was Q1 1843 and Margaret's bap 16th Aptil 1843, Oliver was bap 3rd Sept 1843.
I just have not been certain that this is the correct Margaret as there are a number of them. So if this is the correct Margaret
This is bothering me as I only suggested this Margaret because she was the only one I could find. If you have found others then we need to eliminate them (or eliminate this one!!)
My gut tells me this is the right one, especially since she is the only one that comes up on Family search with father William, born Preston at about the correct time.
Just that when you to a search on LancsBMD there are a few Margaret's born in Preston around that time and who's to say she didn't lie (being sceptical after all the other white lies told by previous generations) also when her youngest son Joesph died she claimed he was her only support but her other son John (probably out of town..for a while i.e. until he died) was still alive:(.
Olde Crone
05-01-12, 18:24
I am in my usual condition of confusion, but I can only see (on Lancsbmd) two Margarets with MMN Nightingale, one in 1850 and one in 1856. Can't see one at all in 1843 (or 42)?
OC
OC there is a Margaret 1843 but MMN is Ashworth so she probably belongs to another family as you said earlier the other Oliver's mothers MMN was Ball. Which means that Merry and my gut are probably correct......*she says hoping not to have to retract*
Can't see one at all in 1843 (or 42)?
No, but I bet if she was b before the marriage she probably wasn't registered!
Just that when you to a search on LancsBMD there are a few Margaret's born in Preston around that time
True, but not all of them would have been born "in" Preston, rather than just in the reg district, plus not all of those will have lived. Also, not all would have a father called William! I didn't try to sort out which was the right registration, I just looked at the 1861 and 1871 census for people who fitted.
Merry, I think she is the right one perhaps have Allan's granduer in my head from a previous post:
Hiya Wendy...sorry I haven`t posted , but I have been in Pontins with grandkids since Saturday....in case anyone is wondering Wendys ancestor Adelaide Sacht was the sister of my gg grandmother Sophia Sacht....now I know it is typical family rumour...but we were told as kids that the owner of Starways Airline based in Liverpool was a Wilson...and was somehow related...so your Wilson family member may be where they came into the family...I think they also owned another big company here in Garston...I will text my elder brother and see if he can remember...now to see if Wilson did own Starways...I can check for real with internet....back soon...
allan
added ...well the Wilson / Starways was true
http://starways.com/history.htm
As usual also impatient, so should see what info I can get from her stay at the reformatory....
BY THE WAY a bit late to ask, but what were the reformatories for i.e. are they like the ones today?
Oh, hang on.....
Lancs BMD:
WILSON Margaret Preston Preston TITHERINGTON PRES/22/57
FreeBMD:
Births Jun 1843
Wilson Margaret Preston 21 591
So the above registrations (they are the same one) could refer to the first Margaret because the parents are another Wm and Ellen!
Marriages Sep 1841
Bryce William Preston 21 374
EWBANKE Ann Preston 21 374
HULMES Margaret Preston 21 374
Parkinson Richard Preston 21 374
TAYLOR John Preston 21 374
Titterington Ellen Preston 21 374 <<<<<(misspelling??)
WILCOCKSON Ellen Preston 21 374
WILSON William Preston 21 374
there are birth regs with mmn Titterington and Titherington, so I don't know which is right!!
Anyway, it doesn't matter as long as they didn't have a living Margaret in 1855ish.
Have to go mix a cake with dau now......
LOL..at least that comes with a recipe....thanks again for all the assistance.
they def married each other:
1841 WILSON William TITTERINGTON Ellen Preston, St John Preston
Olde Crone
05-01-12, 19:03
Was she actually an inmate in the Reformatory? (Sorry if you've already said).
She could have been there for any sort of fairly minor crime (by today's standards) or possibly no crime at all, but being seen to be in need of reforming, e.g. was keeping bad company or was out of parental control.
Anything serious would have had her in prison I think, even though she was only 15.
OC
I agree with that. Her parents may even have been dead, it's hard to tell!
OC, still waiting confirmation as to whether she was an inmate or a "teacher/domestic etc." was just curious as this would be the first instance so far of anyone in the budding tree, being in a "correctional" institution. Thanks for the info.
Sorry Merry missed your message whilst posting.....I am hoping that it was a case of, a or both parents being deceseased (granduer again:o.......even if only as labourers:p)
She was an inmate scholar like all the other teens in the reformatory.
garstonite
08-01-12, 09:03
Hiya Wendy and girls....after just reading this thread,I can only apologise to Wendy for not getting back to her regarding the other Wilson owned business in Garston...this company was started by Mr Wilson...there was also a Wilson Hall, which was built for pensioners to meet up - this hall had groups on in the 50`s and 60`s...The Beatles being the most famous to play there as well as Billy Fury...the profits went to the pensioners...and Mr Wilsons daughter married Graeme Souness the footballer....I think the money from Famous Army Stores funded the Starways Airline company ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famous_Army_Stores
http://www.beatlesbible.com/1957/12/07/live-wilson-hall-liverpool-2/
allan
garstonite
08-01-12, 09:24
The Beatles site tells us that FRANCIS WILSON built this hall...pretty sure he was the founder of the company...he would have been born around 1890-1900.....so I think Wendy needs to try and see if there is a Francis Wilson connection ...my mum was courting the son of Francis before she married my dad....to think I could have had RED hair and been rich....(my dad always used to say to my mum when they argued over money - if you`d have married carrot head , you wouldn`t be moanin about money would you ?) lol
allan:d
Allan, it looks like Wendy's Wilsons came from North Meols. :)
garstonite
08-01-12, 10:45
Yes Merry, I seen this...but I am trying to see if any came to Garston, - ie , where Francis was from....before he came to Garston .......normally ,I wouldn`t interfere / comment as to whether Francis was connected to Wendy`s Wilsons...but Wendy and I have the same 3 x g grandparents from Garston - and as a child we were told the Wilson were distant relations...there are No Wilson in my family - but - my gg grandmother Sophia Sacht had a sister Adelaide Sacht....she married a Boyle , and I think the Wilson connection is through Joseph Boyle...hence the "distant relation" to me - but a direct ancestor to Wendy....allan
I received a reply from the RO about Margaret (greatly appreciated even though it may have been disappointing) and seems I will have to find a new angle - see extract below:
"We do have the records of the Liverpool Juvenile Reformatory Association 1855-1956 (ref. DDX 824), which includes a Girls' Reformatory, Liverpool. The only records we have for this school are as follows:
DDX 824/4/1 Admission Register Girls; Boys - Heswall and Toxteth Park Reformatory for Girls, 7 Jan 1892-26 Sep 1921; 14 Apr 1929-16 Jun 1939
Unfortunately, this register is too late for your purposes. We also have some plans of the school, also known as Girls' Reformatory, Mount Vernon Green, Liverpool, in the records of Culshaw and Sumners, architects and surveyors of Liverpool (ref. 162), but these won't answer your question.
You could try contacting Liverpool Record Office, http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/, although a search of the National Register of Archives (NRA) at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk has not shown any records held elsewhere."
Any pointers?
Tilly Mint
30-01-12, 19:14
Ah, that's a bit of a blow, Wendy.........
About normal though. I have never found a family member in an institution before 1900 where the right records have survived :( Evan down to Trysull W/H where there was only two years of stuff missing out of many decades, and that was exactly the time OH's relative was in there :mad:
It was worth a shot though.......Thanks to all for the assistance.
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