Really need help finding Great Grandmothers Death

[vallee]

Emily KEMP born 11 Dec 1857 Regents Park St Pancras.

marries
Adam MULLER 16 May 1877 Bethnal Green

Adam dies in 1892

Emily and Adam are here in 1891 in 40 Nelson Street Mile End

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&h=10729795&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t6737403_p-1211937482_kpidz0q3d-1211937482z
q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid

this is where it gets a bit messy dont worry about any of the children mentioned in 1891 or Daisy born 22 Mar in 1891 but omitted from the census
I know what happened to them and they wont be with her in 1901 .

Emily then has Twins Violet and Lily 13 Feb 1894 who both die in 1894
Baptism in Whitechapel says Parents Thomas Muller a Dock Labourer and Emily Muller?
Yet on their Birth reg it says Lily Gosnell/ Violet Gosnell

Found another child
Thomas Henry GOSNELL born 30 Dec 1895 Poplar
parents
Thomas Henry GOSNELL a dock labourer and Emily GOSNELL nee KEMP

cannot find a marriage for Thomas and Emily am sure they never married ?

Found the Son Thomas in 1916 marrying a Isabella GORRIE this is the marriage cert

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k217/tabatha7_2006/CroppedThomasHenryGosnellM1916.jpg

Would really love to find Emilys Death the last I am sure of her being alive is when Thomas was born cannot find her in 1901 or 1911

Thomas the Son then migrates to Canada in 1922 this is the info on that

Going to
a friend Mrs Porteous 287 Marlborough Drive Brantford Ontario Canada

I did wonder if she had died in Scotland ? but am not very good at The Scotlandspeople site but would be more than willing to pay for any credits used.

Sorry for such a long read but think its important for anybody who may help not to waste time looking for info already found.

Thanks in advance

[Merry]

Found the Son Thomas in 1916 marrying a Isabella GORRIE this is the marriage cert


Um, I can't see it!

What was Thomas's occ at marriage? Do I take it you have not found him in 1901/11 either?

[vallee]

oops forgot to post the image cannot find any of them in 1901 or 1911 I'll get the image

[Merry]

Was the marriage not in England?

[Merry]

Yet on their Birth reg it says Lily Gosnell/ Violet Gosnell



Do you mean on the certificates? Twins where the mother has been reported with a different first name for each?????

[kiterunner]

I think she means the twins' surname is Gosnell instead of Muller, Merry.

[ElizabethHerts]

I'm very confused with this! I've read it through several times and I'm still confused!

[Merry]

Thomas the Son then migrates to Canada in 1922 this is the info on that



but he came back?

Name: Thomas H Gosnell
Birth Date: abt 1896
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1967
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Camberwell
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5a
Page: 577


I was actually looking for a death for his father, but can't see one, so that makes it more likely Emily died out of Eng/Wales, pehaps?

[Merry]

I think she means the twins' surname is Gosnell instead of Muller, Merry.

Yes, I think so too, but I was confused that the mum was reported as Violet and Lily!!

[kiterunner]

Vallee, Thomas and Isabella got married in Scotland in 1916, so it should say on that marriage certificate if Emily was deceased by then. What does it say about her, please?

[kiterunner]

Yes, I think so too, but I was confused that the mum was reported as Violet and Lily!!
No, those are the twins' names.

[Merry]

Oh, I read it wrong, that's the babies names!! lol

[Merry]

Have we been here before? The name Kemp seems very familiar!

[kiterunner]

I did wonder if she had died in Scotland ? but am not very good at The Scotlandspeople site but would be more than willing to pay for any credits used.



There is no Emily Gosnell or Emily Muller death in the Statutory Deaths 1855-2009 on Scotland's People, Vallee.

[Merry]

What about Thomas Henry Gosnell senr, Kate? (B Poplar 1867)

[kiterunner]

There aren't any Thomas Henry Gosnell deaths on Scotland's People either.

[vallee]

sorry people I get over excited have now posted the image of the marriage of the son
yes the twins are Violet Gosnell and Lily Gosnell on the Birth registration but not on the baptisms
Did wonder if that is the right death for Thomas Henry Gosnell thanks Merry

I have not found the Thomas Henry GOSNELL senior on any census records and did wonder if the one born in 1867 Poplar is him ?

Merry I did ask for help before ? but that was before I found out the names of the children she had after Adam died .

[Merry]

valley, have you found Thomas G senr on any census?

[Merry]

Ah, found him in 1871 as a step-son to Henry Francis Barret. Says b Essex but has a brother called Charles also apparently born Essex but registered in Poplar. I think their father was George Gosnell d 1868.

[kiterunner]

So Emily should still be alive in 1916.

There is a WW1 medal index card for Thomas jr showing he was in the Royal Scots Fusiliers, Private, no 17414, and Highland Light Infantry, also a Private, no 37990. Correspondence address 7 Royal Street, West Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I'll see if there are any military records for him (no, can't find any).

[vallee]

no Merry thats been my problem as I dont really know when he was born ?unless that 1867 one is him ??

[Merry]

Sorry valley, I missed reading your post 17!

Yes, I think that is him in Essex in 1871.

[vallee]

thanks Kite but I couldnt find any any army records for him

[Merry]

I can't instantly see that Henry F Barret remembered to marry Mrs Gosnell!!

I'm only looking at them to see what alternative surnames they might have gone by (as they seem to be somewhat flexible!! lol)

[vallee]

if thats him Merry you are wonderful I could kiss you.

[Merry]

What I mean't was I think the people in Stratford Essex are the same family as this birth reg:

Births Mar 1867
Gosnell Thomas Henry Poplar 1c 638

and that he could be the right man! (ie not definitely is!!)

[Merry]

The Stratford family seem to vanish after 1871. There are a couple of possibles for the younger Barrett children 'in care' in 1881.

[vallee]

did find this in 1881 Merry might be them what do you reckon
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&gsfn=&gsln=&sx=&f1=&f2=&f3=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&f29=&_82004011=&_82004013=&_82004014=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=423&f8=9&f9=11&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1881&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=15086069&recoff=

interestingly the boys are transcribed as Goswell ???

[Merry]

That looks right, because Eliza says unknown for the second time for her place of birth (I forget when the other time was now? 1861?)

The name is only mistranscribed because the writing is poor!

[vallee]

I'm not having much luck in 1891 ? but then the boys seem to change the places of birth?

[Merry]

Sadly (for your research!) they seem to be one of those families who give differing info each time! I noticed when George Gosnell married Eliza Hall (I think they are THG senrs parents) she says 'unknown' for her father's occ and later says unknown for her place of birth, but suggests places on the other censuses. Then she says Essex for her children which seems to be wrong also (maybe Mr Bennett filled in the form?).

Henry F Bennett and Eliza don't seem to have married (and I can't find his death, but when she says she is a widow in 1881 does she mean from him or from George?) which may set the scene for Thomas and your Emily Kemp.

Not helpful are they!!

[vallee]

thanks very much Merry for giving me something to check out ,got to go now but am going to follow this up later thanks again.
I did wonder at one time if maybe Emily had gone out to Canada to visit her girls that were sent there by Barnados and maybe died there ?
Thanks again

[vallee]

am slowly finding the other childrens births to narrow it down, think I have found George Gosnell seniors death in 1868 in Poplar ??? which would tie in with Thomas being born in Poplar in 1867.
Have found Eliza Halls details I think ? looks like she was born in Surrey?

[vallee]

just noticed Kite thanks for checking for the parents deaths .

[vallee]

have now found a Thomas Henry Goswell born abt 1850 and in 1901 is a Wharf Labourer ? wondered if this might be my Thomas Henry Gosnell snr but as he is married would explain why he never married Emily maybe ?
Dont know why but am not happy about the one born in 1867 , would be 10 years younger than Emily? and cannot find him anywhere after 1881?

[kiterunner]

Is this him in 1901, Val? Though this one would be born about 1850?
1 Clegg St., St George in the East, London
Thomas H Goswell Head M 51 Wharf Labourer London St George in the East
Louisa " Wife M 51 Tailoress "
Matilda " Dau S 26 Tailoress "
Hector " Son S 16 Factory Boy "
Louisa V " Dau S 11 "

I'll see if I can find them on the earlier censuses.

[kiterunner]

1891 16 Artichoke Hill, St George in the East
Thomas H Goswell Head M 42 Gun Maker London St George E
Louisa A Goswell Wife M 42 Tailoress London St George E
Thomas G Do Son S 18 Store Keeper Do Stepney
Hector C Do Son 6 "
Louisa V Do Daur 3 "

I wonder if we can find out exactly when he stopped being a gun maker and started being a wharf labourer?

[kiterunner]

If it's the same Thomas Henry Goswell, he had a previous wife Mary Anne and was a blacksmith, with daughters Mary Anne born 1871 and baptised 1872, and Eliza Elizabeth born 1864 and baptised 1875 (eh?), then with wife Louisa he had Matilda Elma in 1877 (still a blacksmith), son Richard James born 12 something 1882 baptised 23 Sep 1883 at Shadwell / East London Hospital (address 5 Reigate Street, labourer), Thomas Edward born 12 Feb 1873 (?) baptised 23 Nov 1883 at St Peter London Docks, parents Thomas George and Louisa Ann of 5 Reigate Street, blacksmith, Hector Charles 1884 still at 5 Reigate St., labourer, Louisa Valentine 1888 3 Worcester Court, labourer.

Not sure that has helped but at least we have it all together on this thread.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, there's a George Goswell marrying at the end of 1895 whose father is Thomas Henry Goswell, blacksmith, but that doesn't mean he was still actually working as a blacksmith at that date. Then Thomas George Goswell gets married in 1905, father Thomas Henry Goswell, gunmaker. Matilda gets married in 1905 as well, father Thomas Henry Goswell, labourer. The name does consistently seem to be Goswell, not Gosnell, on everything for this family though.

[vallee]

thank for helping Kite yes thats the family in 1901
Just seems odd that I cannot find the other one after 1881 yet this one is a Wharf labourer (which I imagine is the same as a Dock Labourer) in 1901 a few years after the twins were born ,seems too much of a coincidence do you think ???
I know it says Goswell but maybe this Thomas used Gosnell hoping not to be found out ?
I have almost made my mind up to pay for the Dr Barnados records which is a lot of money hoping they may tell me more about Emily ?

[vallee]

just to say thanks to the new School records on Ancestry found Thomas junior and have now found my Great Grandmothers new Marriage and her Death whoopee thrilled to bits thanks all