View Full Version : mary ann hoys
hi everyone,hope your all doing well? I have bit of a problem i could do with some help with on my research. Unforunatley the only information I know thus far.is she married my gre gre gre grandfather william hairyes 1835/1890 in 1885 in bramley,leeds.when she was 25 years old so born approx 1860.she didnt have any children with william who died april 1890(she was his fourth and final wife.they lived in new wortley,leeds from 1885/1890.after that I am completley, stumped any help would be gratefully recived.thanks from zoe
ElizabethHerts
01-01-12, 14:07
Hi Zoe!
This is the marriage to which you refer:
Civil Registration event: Marriage
Name: HOYS, Mary Ann
Registration District: Bramley
County: Yorkshire
Year of Registration: 1885
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Volume No: 9B
Page No: 464
HAIRYES, William
ElizabethHerts
01-01-12, 14:12
In 1881, before her marriage:
1881 Census
HOYES, Mary Ann
BRAMLEY, Yorkshire (West riding)
RG11 piece 4503 folio 158 page 28
HOYES, Mary Head Widow F 48 1833 Home Duties Dom Lincolnshire
HOYES, Jonathan Son Single M 22 1859 Plate Layer Lincolshire
HOYES, Mary Ann Daughr Single F 20 1861 Woollen Rag Grinder Lincolnshire
HOYES, Sarah J Daughr Single F 18 1863 Woollen Rag Grinder Lincolnshire
HOYES, Alice Daughr Single F 14 1867 Invalid Derbyshire
HOYES, Beatrice Grand Daughter Single F 3 1878 Wortley Yorkshire
ElizabethHerts
01-01-12, 14:15
I haven't found her after her marriage so far, but will keep looking.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 14:23
How do you know that's her, please, Elizabeth?
kiterunner
01-01-12, 14:28
Info from her marriage certificate (June 8th 1885 at New Wortley parish church):
Mary Ann Hoys, age 25, spinster, residence New Wortley, father William Hoys (deceased), miller, witnesses William Thomas and Sarah Cotton.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 14:31
There is also a marriage at New Wortley 15 Oct 1881 of Sarah Jane Hoyes, 19, to John William Burton, and Sarah Jane's father is William Hoyes, corn miller, witnesses David Hartley Higgins and Sarah Cotton, so it looks very likely indeed that the family Elizabeth posted up on the 1881 census is the right one as there is a Sarah J there.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 14:36
This is the family in 1871, at 6 Hainsworth Street, Wortley:
William Hoyes Head Married 36 Brick Maker Nottinghamshire Holme(?)
Mary Hoyes Wife Married 37 Lincolnshire
Jonathan Hoyes Son 12 Lincolnshire
Mary Ann Hoyes Dau 10 Lincolnshire
Alice Hoyes Dau 4 Lincolnshire
Sarah Jane Hoyes Dau 8 Scholar Derbyshire
Why won't they say where in Lincolnshire they were born?!
Olde Crone
01-01-12, 14:37
Why do these names seem very familiar to me?
OC
kiterunner
01-01-12, 14:38
Bother, now ancestry isn't working so I can't find them in 1861 to (hopefully) see where in Lincolnshire she was born and know what to look for in 1891.
Olde Crone
01-01-12, 14:45
To save some work:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1288748
OC
kiterunner
01-01-12, 14:46
Okay, looks like she was born in Caistor, according to the 1861 census:
William Hoyes Head Mar 27 Ag Lab Nottinghamshire Holme
Mary Hoyes Wife Mar 27 Lincolnshire Great Carlton
Jonathan Hoyes Son 2 Lincolnshire Caistor
Mary A Hoyes Daur 11 months Lincolnshire Caistor.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 15:00
This is Mary Ann's mother in 1891:
22 Oldfield Lane, Wortley
Mary Hoyes Head Wid 64 Lincolnshire Great Carlton
Alice Hoyes Dau Single 24 Tailoress Yorkshire
Beatrice Hoyes Grand-daur Single 13 General Servant Domestic Yorkshire Leeds
I was hoping that Beatrice was Mary Ann's daughter and would be with her in 1891. :(
thats fantastic reserch thus far thanks.what happend afther william hairyes death? would she have been a hairyes? still ? im absulety hopeless at working these things out. you guys do a great job.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 15:04
Yes, she should still be a Hairyes after William's death, but I haven't had any luck in finding out what happened to her yet.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 15:16
I suppose the surname may be spelt differently after William died, though. Still not found her, sorry.
my apolgies i forgot to add i put a thread up a copule of days ago,genesreunited apoligies They were of some help but unfortunatley i havent nonone could find any birth,death, children or marriges after william hairyes, so I thought id try here as you guys have helped tremndously with cases id givren up on,again apoligies for this. I wasnt actually aware that the 1881 faamily mentined in genereunited was correct until you found the proof of marriage,thanks again and sorry
hi everyone,ive just looked on ancestry uk and put in mary ann hoys born caiston,lincs 1861 married to william hairyes. and search it came up a will and probate 1891 for mary ann hoys whichit wouldnt let me read,because im not a paying member could it be that mary ann died 1891 thats why we cant find her,thanks
i ment caistor,lincs. the plotthickens
hi everyone,ive just looked on ancestry uk and put in mary ann hoys born caiston,lincs 1861 married to william hairyes. and search it came up a will and probate 1891 for mary ann hoys whichit wouldnt let me read,because im not a paying member could it be that mary ann died 1891 thats why we cant find her,thanks
That's not the right person. Here is the death reg:
Name: Mary Ann Hoys
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1891
Age at Death: 57
Registration district: Lewisham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 789
Zoe, do you have Wm Hairyes' death cert? I wondered who registered his death?
EDIT: and his last address.
apoliges dont have williams death certificate.his last address was prince street,new worltley ,leeds in 1877
Will you be getting it?
We have his 1881 address too: 5, 7th Avenue, Wortley.
I have his final buriul records here,if this any help for william hairyes out of my file.william hairyes was buried in 25th may 1890 at new wortley cemetary aged 59 leaving widow mary ann hoys.his final address was 13 greenland street,new worltey. it is the life of his widow im seaking information on here so hopefully this address can be of help to anybody who can help find mary ann,please please help me find mary ann?.I Will get round to obtainign wlliams death certificate in the future,thanks for your advice.just trying to concentrate on one family memeber at a time,you guys have been a great helpso far,many thanks form zoe
espeically researching at present when did mary ann hoys pass away,did she remarry,and did she have any children after williams death,i appreciate your trying to cover all angles, but its just mary ann or and her desedents im searching for today,you guys have been fantastic help thus far in everything so just thought id try here again! many thanks aND happy new year! you guys are the best geeolgy forumi have dealt with,many thanks from zoe.
13 greenland street,new worltey
So we need someone with a FMP sub to check this address in 1891.
william hairyes was buried in 25th may 1890 at new wortley cemetary aged 59 leaving widow mary ann hoys
Does it actually say that on his burial record?
Can anyone find this child in 1891 or anywhere else, to eliminate him (or otherwise!)?
Births Mar 1891
Hairyes William Oddy Bramley 9b 353
Deaths Dec 1897
Hairyes William Oddy 6 Blackburn 8e 247
kiterunner
01-01-12, 18:18
So we need someone with a FMP sub to check this address in 1891.
The census refs for Greenland (never thought I would type that!) are on TNA site, Merry - RG12/3784, folios 4 and 5. But I can't see a house number 13.
ElizabethHerts
01-01-12, 18:26
So we need someone with a FMP sub to check this address in 1891.
Does it actually say that on his burial record?
This is the entry:
1891 Census
13, Greenland Street, Wortley, Leeds
Bramley, Yorkshire (West Riding)
RG12 piece 3678 folio 66 page 20
Address:
13, Greenland Street, Wortley, Leeds
132 JOHNSON, William Head Married M 49 1842 Railway Labourer Saham
Norfolk
132 JOHNSON, Eliz B Wife Married F 43 1848 Upholstress Watton Norfolk
No Hairyes, unfortunately.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 18:34
Thanks, Elizabeth, I must have been looking at the wrong street entirely!
There is a marriage for a Mary Hairyes in 1907 at Blackburn Register Office or Registrar Attended, to Thomas Edward Podmore. But Lancashire BMD doesn't show an alternative surname for her which you would expect if she was a widow. Worth looking for them in 1911 though to see if it's her.
hmmmm.....Wm Oddy Hairyes was probably illegitimate:
Births Mar 1891
Hairyes William Oddy Bramley 9b 353
ODDY William Oddy Bramley 9b 353
Worth looking for them in 1911 though to see if it's her.
I can't positively identify them, but I can't see a Mary Podmore who says she has been married 1907+/-2 and is as old as Mary Hoys would have been.
kiterunner
01-01-12, 19:01
I'm beginning to think that the Mary Hairyes who married Thomas Edward Podmore is the one born 1870 Knaresborough and that she's probably also the mother of William Oddy Hairyes.
That would make sense and I can't see her in 1891 either!
In August 1890 banns were called between Mary Hairyes, spinster, and Thomas Wrighton, bachelor at New Wortley. The entry has 'cancelled' written across it. I would think that could be the same Mary (1870, Knaresborough)
william hairyes children were henry 1861,john1863,mary,samuel,george,william jrn,hannah,james and elevey.this is tthe information you guys gave me regarding researching william hairyes apoligies didnt think it was relevent in this search. it doesnt say widow mary ann in burial records but has address and ag labourer ive added that from my own research drawer. just cant understand how to find out waht happededn to mary ann after death of william.his last address was 13 greenland street new wortley, in april 1890,many thanks from zoe this is a complete mystery
kiterunner
01-01-12, 21:41
So we don't know for sure that Mary Ann was still alive when William died, then?
Exactly!
Zoe - That's (one of the reasons!) why you should get William's death cert.
william hairyes children were henry 1861,john1863,mary,samuel,george,william jrn,hannah,james and elevey
Zoe, who is Elevey?
EDIT - I've just realised those are probably not in date order. Were there any more children after James?
I can see Samuel (Leeds dec 1881) in 1901 and 1911 but not in 1891. So, he is hiding along with his step mother, Mary Ann (Hoys) and also his (half?) sister, Mary (1870 Knaresborough) and her son Wm Oddy Hairyes. I suppose it's possible they were all together.
(I've not searched properly for Samuel yet in 1891 as the boy with the noose keeps appearing on Ancestry!)
hi everyone,thanks for work so far.in an answrer to your question,elevarey hairyes was a child of william who died an infant.i think it is a good chance mary ann hoys could be living with sam hairyes or at least one or two of her stepchildren,that is an exellent idea.as yet i havent checked that way of thinking,again you guys are excellent at working these families out osmetimes with very little evidence. many thanks form zoe
Will you be getting William's death cert, Zoe? :) It might help with finding his wife/widow.
hi evryone,ive just rechecked my research,there is no evidence of a a mary ann hairyes been buired in the new wortley cematry,leeds where william,all the family appear to have been buried.elizabeth hairyes,(williams 3rd wife)mary,john rebecca, gearge,john william,sarah williams children and grandchildren and the infant children wee all buiried there but no evidence of mary ann hairyes,williams last addres was indeed 13 greenland street,new wortley, in april 1890,the mystery deepens and deepens,thnaks from zoe
yeah I will try and get a death certifcate, was hoping someone in here could help me solve this mystery which is a key to solving a segemnt of my research as I just cant find out for myself the paienece and the knowledge ability of the peole in ibthis forum is excellent and this is the best geneolgy forum ive used so hoping for a breakthrough in here before the invetablity of obataining the said certificate.many thanks and please help from zoe
Zoe, when was Mary Ann's last known child born?
Olde Crone
03-01-12, 20:16
William Oddy Hairyes died in 1896, aged 6, registered in Blackburn.
OC
William Oddy Hairyes died in 1896, aged 6, registered in Blackburn.
OC
I think we think his mother was Wm Hairyes' daughter, Mary rather than Mary Ann Hoys :)
Mar,y the daughter, was the one whose banns were called around the same time, but she didn't get married and that may have been because she was carrying a baby belonging to someone called Oddy (this is only my guess!)
I'm now thinking that Mary Ann Hoys didn't actually have any registered children with Wm Hairyes? It's probably on a thread here, but i thought it would be quicker to ask Zoe, but she isn't here now.
Unless this child is hers:
Births Sep 1887
HAIRYES Henry Bramley 9b 301
Deaths Sep 1887
Hairyes Harry 0 Bramley 9b 256
Olde Crone
03-01-12, 20:41
Sorry, that's what happens when I try to be succinct!
I should have said, it seemed like proof that he was son of Mary junior, not Mary Ann!
Searching with one hand tied behind my back and with a blindfold on, lol, I am picking up a family of Hairyes in 1891, including a Nelly, aged 6. This is on familysearch, but I'm sure there would be a better picture of this family on Ancestry or FMP.....there's unfortunately no reference given, but the district is Wortley St John, Bramley, if that helps. (Nelly born 1884).
OC
One moment, please hold....................
John Hairyes 26 Press letter b Knaresborough (is this Wm's son who Zoe is descended from?)
Rebecca 26 b Norfolk
Nellie 6
Eveline 1
William Hairyes 18 boarder
Last three b Leeds
22 Clyde St Wortley
If Mary Ann and the other missing-from-1891 Hairyes people I mentioned in an earlier post are truly missing from that census and then Mary Ann either lives with someone or remarries under the name Harris or her marriage entry goes missing or something and she has no Hairyes family with her by 1901 then she would be completely invisible to us.
I wonder if anyone has tried looking for Mary's death or remarriage on Yorks BMD?
Olde Crone
03-01-12, 20:57
Yes, I have, and have found nothing on yorksbmd.
So, Nellie and Eveline were not the children of William Hairyes then. Zoe, why did you think they were?
EDIT - I am definitely going mad. Zoe never mentioned a Nellie, so I have no idea why I searched for one and found her with an Eveline.....
OC
She didn't here!
william hairyes children were henry 1861,john1863,mary,samuel,george,william jrn,hannah,james and elevey.
I still don't know where Elevey fitted in as I can't find a birth or death for her and wondered if she is a child of Mary Ann, or if she fitten in earlier? I can't find her in any other threads, but I'm guessing that's because her name isn't spelled the same way if she is mentioned elsewhere.
Olde Crone
03-01-12, 21:12
I took it that Elevey was Evelyn, but there was an Elizabeth born and died in 1883, aged 0.
*I'm psychic, I'm psychic*
OC
*envys OC's crystal ball*
But Wm Hairyes didn't have a wife when Elizabeth was born:
Deaths Jun 1882
Hairyes Elizabeth 41 Bramley 9b 246 (his third wife)
Births Sep 1883
Hairyes Elizabeth Bramley 9b 370
Deaths Dec 1883
Hairyes Elizabeth 0 Bramley 9b 238
and then he married again in 1885 (I think!)
So surely Elizabeth is more likely to be the firstborn of Wm's son John (who married in Q2 1883)
Olde Crone
03-01-12, 21:35
Snap, Merry! I've just worked that out. Also, there was an Elizabeth born in 61 I've just noticed......perhaps Zoe will come back and tell us when the Elevey was born and died and how she knows she was a daughter of William.
OC
Elevey as a surname returned 103 hits on my Ancestry (including some McEleveys).
If you should Google, be very careful where you click! There are a ton of "adult" sites out there using the name Elevey, and they're sure to be loaded with computer viruses.
Olde Crone
03-01-12, 23:18
Has anyone checked outgoing passengers to the USA?
I see from a post on another site that Henry Hairyes was advertising in 1890 for news of his brother John who had gone to the USA 6 years before. Maybe john saw the message, replied and Mary Ann went to the USA, taking (perhaps) the missing Samuel, etc. Just a thort!
OC
Mistranscriptions of Hairyes that I have found so far:
Haeryer
Haimes
Hariyes
Hanges
==============================================
I haven't found the missing Mary Ann after her 8 June 1885 marriage to William Hairyes, but I think I may know a little more about who's who. I think it goes like this:
The Mary Ann Hoyes, age 20, who lives in New Wortley at Hugh St 5 on the 1881 census is a daughter of Mary Hoyes, widow, 48. The son, Mary Ann's brother, is Jonathan Hoyes, age 22, a Plate Layer, born Lincolnshire.
Class: RG11; Piece: 4503; Folio: 158; Page: 28; GSU roll: 1342080.
This Mary Ann Hoys (on FamilySearch now without the 'e') is born in 1860 in Caistor, Lincs, and has a father William all of which fits with the marriage certificate.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J9NR-74Q
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249502-01249&fn=William&ln=Hairyes&st=r&ssrc=&pid=7513060
Her brother Jonathan Hoyes marries another Mary Ann, a Mary Ann March from Derby, in Sep qtr 1904.
In 1911 they are on the census in Wortley. He is born Caistor, Lincolnshire, and is a Platelayer on the Great Northern Railway.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2352&iid=RG14_26883_0345_03&fn=Mary+Ann&ln=Hoyes&st=r&ssrc=&pid=39285228
She says she has no children, but there are two daughters, Florrie and Mary Elizabeth. Looks like he was previously married in June qtr 1885.
Florrie Hoyes marries Gilbert Harrison in Bramley in June qtr 1916. Can't quite make out Mary Elizabeth.
This is curious: Mary Ann Haryreanes. Probably supposed to say Hargreaves, though.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQWR-1P5
==============================================
I can't find any Mary Ann or Mary or M Hairyes headed to the U.S., but aboard the S.S. Cephalonia, sailing from Liverpool 20 July 1893, arriving Boston 30 July 1893, we have:
Name: John Hairyes
Age: 28 [calculated birth year 1865]
Sex: M
Married or single: M
Calling or occupation: Press Setter
Able to read/write: Y/Y
Nationality: English
Last residence: Leeds
Seaport for landing in the United States: Boston
Final destination in the United States: Worcester, Mass.
Whether having a ticket to such final destination: No
By whom was passage paid: Self
Whether in possession of money, if so, whether more than $30 and how much if $30 or less: more
Whether ever before in the United States, and if so, when and where: no
Whether going to join a relative, and if so, what relative, their name and address: Brother Hy Hairyes, Worcester
Ever in Prison or Almshouse or supported by charity, if yes, state which: no
Whether a Polygamist: no
Whether under Contract, express or implied, to labor in the United States: no
Condition of Health, Mental and Physical: good
Deformed or Crippled, Nature and Cause: no
Accompanying him:
Rebecca Hairyes, 28, married, no occupation
William Hairyes, 20, single, Press setter
Nellie Hairyes, 8
Eveline Hairyes, 4
National Archives and Records Administration (NARA); Washington, D.C.; Crew Lists of Vessels Arriving at Boston, Massachusetts, 1917-1943; Microfilm Serial: T938; Microfilm Roll: 7.
[I think OC is probably right. Isn't "Elevey" just someone's variant transcription of Eveline?]
==============================================
On the 1900 U.S. census in Auburn Town, Worcester County, Massachusetts, 19 June 1900:
Hairyes Henry Head White Male Aug 1858 41 Married 15 1885 England England England 1882 Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Hairyes Clara Wife White Female Sep 1862 37 Married 15 1885 England England England 1882 Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts 7 children all living
Hairyes Mary E Daughter White Female Jun 1885 14 Single Massachusetts England England Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Hairyes Annie Daughter White Female Dec 1886 13 Single Massachusetts England England Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Hairyes Louisa M Daughter White Female Nov 1889 10 Single Massachusetts England England Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Hairyes Willie Son White Male Oct 1892 7 Single Massachusetts England England Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Hairyes Elliot Son White Male Oct 1894 5 Single Massachusetts England England Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Hairyes Freddie Son White Male Jan 1897 3 Single Massachusetts England England Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Snarwitch William Boarder White Male unknown 40 Single Poland Poland Poland 1880 Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts
Year: 1900; Census Place: Auburn, Worcester, Massachusetts; Roll: T623_ 690; Page: 11A; Enumeration District: 1583.
==============================================
Some other bits and pieces I took note of:
Name: Samuel Hairyes
Regiment or Corps: West Yorkshire Regiment, Labour Corps
Regimental Number: 3252, 271928
Ancestry.com. British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2008.
Original data: Army Medal Office. WWI Medal Index Cards. In the care of The Western Front Association website.
==============================================
Name: John Hairyes
Regiment or Corps: Royal Garrison Artillery
Regimental Number: 353853
Ancestry.com. British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2008.
Original data: Army Medal Office. WWI Medal Index Cards. In the care of The Western Front Association website.
==============================================
[I think OC is probably right. Isn't "Elevey" just someone's variant transcription of Eveline?]
That's what I thought, which is why I asked Zoe who she was as I could only find the Eveline who didn't die young and was the child of John not William. I spent ages yesterday trying to find the one who was "a child of Wm who died young" without any success.
kiterunner
04-01-12, 07:08
Has anyone checked outgoing passengers to the USA?
Yes, I had a look yesterday but no luck.
Olde Crone
04-01-12, 08:26
Oooh, well found Janet!
I'm just going to check that newspaper cutting I found, as there's something odd going on if I remembered the names correctly.
Back in a mo.
EDIT - ah, it makes sense now I've looked properly, lol.
Reynolds Newspapers Sunday August 24th, 1890
MISSING RELATIONS OR FRIENDS
HAIRYES - If this should meet the eyes of Henry Hairyes who left New Wortly, Leds 8 years ago, last heard of 4 years ago at 179 Milbury St Worcester, Massachusetts, US America, will he write to his brother John HAIRYES at 22 Clyde St Wollington Rd, New Wortley, Leeds, England. Will any friend knowing the same, try to trace. American papers please copy.
OC
Olde Crone
04-01-12, 08:47
In view of what Janet posted above, this might have some significance:
Henry Hairyes married Clara HARGREAVES in 1907, Massachusetts.
OC
Can anyone find Mary Ann Hoys mother in 1891? This is her death:
Deaths Mar 1895
Hoyes Mary 64 Bramley 9b 303
She was b abt 1833 in Lincolnshire according to the 1881 census.
Oh forget that, I've found her now.
Olde Crone
04-01-12, 13:07
Just a thought but would it be worth Zoe getting Samuel's service records? You never know, it might give his step mother as next of kin......
OC
I think they may be burnt, OC. I've searched with first name sam* and each of his two service numbers, but turned up nothing so far.
EIT and he was married by WW1
hi everyone,thanks for your effots,in answer to your questions ive checked my research file elverey hairyes was born 1870 died 1872 in harroagate so this must be son or daughter of elizabeth hairyes .this is not the same person as evelyn hairyes born 1889.died 1977 evlyn is the granddaughter of william hairyes and the son of john hairyes and rebecea (as truly concluded in here is my desdent gre gre grandafther) johns other childrn were nellyannie,john wiliam,marjorie.these as correctly identified travelled to america to see willians first son henry ,taken willliam jr johns brother and rebeca,evelyn ,nelley,evelyn.mary ann had no children to william hairyes,i am not aware of where mary ann ended up but she is not living with john hairyes and rebbca on any cenucs that they are on,,thanks once again,any help would be gratefully recived.many thanks from zoe
elverey hairyes was born 1870 died 1872 in harroagate so this must be son or daughter of elizabeth hairyes
But their daughter Mary Hairyes was born in 1870 and is with them on the 1871 census. She is the one who married in 1907 to Thomas Podmore.
congrajulattions on the information found so far another brilliant job,the only thing alluding us now is where did mary ann to livve after williams death? if not in america,or with john hairyes,i surmise thta she must have lived with one of her other step children you guys are more experts than me,the mystery goes on and on many thanks from zoe
As I said before, if she didn't emigrate she may have lived with someone or her marriage is not showing in official records. If her death is recorded under her new name then we may not recognise it.
If Elevey was the daughter of Wm and Elizabeth she can't have been born in 1870.
It really doesn't matter who she is unless she was William's last child (as I thought she was as you had her last on the list!), as I was only hoping there was a child between Wm and Mary Ann to further the search for Mary Ann.
Olde Crone
04-01-12, 19:36
The only way forward that I can see, is to get William's death cert and hope that the informant was Mary Ann, which would at least tell you she was still alive, but it's a long shot and isn't going to help much with finding her remarriage or her death.
OC
Mary from Italy
04-01-12, 20:06
This is Zoe's original thread about the Hairyes family in case anyone needs it for reference:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10634
Just to eliminate a red herring,
This is curious: Mary Ann Haryreanes. Probably supposed to say Hargreaves, though.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQWR-1P5
In view of what Janet posted above, this might have some significance:
Henry Hairyes married Clara HARGREAVES in 1907, Massachusetts.
OC
Mary Ann "Haryreanes" belongs here, and has presumably nothing at all to do with this thread:
England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
Margaret Hargraves
burial: 25 Feb 1893 Stretton (near Warrington),? Cheshire,? England
residence: 25 Feb 1893 Appleton
Ethel Hargreaves
burial: 08 Dec 1895 Stretton (near Warrington),? Cheshire,? England
residence: 08 Dec 1895 Stretton
James Hargreaves
burial: 16 Jan 1900 Stretton (near Warrington),? Cheshire,? England
residence: 16 Jan 1900 Appleton
Joseph Hargreaves
burial: 05 Feb 1924 Stretton (near Warrington),? Cheshire,? England
residence: 05 Feb 1924 ,? Stretton (near Warrington),? Cheshire,? England
Mary Ann Haryreanes
burial: 08 Mar 1938 Stretton (near Warrington),? Cheshire,? England
residence: 08 Mar 1938 ,? Stretton (near Warrington),? Cheshire,? England
https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AHar*r*es%20%2Bdeath_place%3AStr etton
well elvrey is born1870,died 1872 son of william and elizabeth hogg who married william christmas day 1867.unsure on my soruce for this information.no children for william and mary ann hoyes.completley confused and puzzled here.many thanks from zoe
This is the child Elizabeth and Wm had in 1870:
Births Jun 1870
Hairyes Mary Knaresbro' 9a 103
It's not possible to fit another into the same year onless they were twins, but there is no other birth registration and no other child the same age with them on the 1871 census. Also no death in 1872.
unsure on my soruce for this information
Iit's really important you record a source for every bit of information you find. Do you use a family history computer program for your tree or do you have it online?
Mary from Italy
05-01-12, 21:48
I don't think there was a child called Elvrey or similar.
Mary was 10 months old at the time of the 1871 census, so she was born in 1870. And on that census, her name could just about be misread as Ellery or something of the kind.
Olde Crone
05-01-12, 21:50
Wild thought here - could Elevray be a really badly written Mary? ellevey has the same outline as Mary.
Nope, that doesn't work either because Zoe says Elevray died in 1872. Mary didn't.
OC
And on that census, her name could just about be misread as Ellery or something of the kind.
But the writing on the 1871 census is beautifully neat!
Mary from Italy
05-01-12, 22:34
I know it is, but someone who isn't used to that kind of writing could misread the capital M as "ell", and the old-fashioned "r" as "ve".
Olde Crone
05-01-12, 22:48
Snap, Mary!
OC
EDIT - but still no - Mary didn't die in 1872, so if Zoe has a birth and a death for a child, it isn't Mary.
Olde Crone
05-01-12, 23:17
This sequence of events is a bit odd.
Jun Q 1867 DEATH of Hannah Hairyes aged 28
Sep Q 1867 MARRIAGE William to Elizabeth Hogg
DEC Q 1867 BIRTH of Hannah
Doing the arithmetic means that Elizabeth Hogg was pregnant with Hannah junior BEFORE Hannah senior died.
Is it DEFINITELY the same man throughout?
OC
Mary from Italy
06-01-12, 00:10
I don't think there's any doubt that the Williams in the 1871 and 1881 censuses are the same man (although he gives two different birthplaces). There was some doubt as to whether the one we've found in 1851 and 1861 is the same one, because he said he was a bachelor when he married in 1858, but the father's occupation (attorney) on the 1847 marriage cert matches the one on the 1885 cert (lawyer), so I think it's pretty sure to be the same person.
I suppose the above dates might just about be possible if Hannah senior died at the beginning of April 1867 and Hannah junior was born full-term at the end of December, or prematurely a bit sooner, but it's certainly pushing it a bit. Of course, Hannah junior might have been Elizabeth's child but not William's.
Zoe has the 1847 and 1867 marriage certs, and the other two (1858 and 1885) are online. The groom's father's name (William) matches in all cases, although the occupations differ. The signatures on the two that are online are similar but not identical.
That's just what's been bothering me, Mary. I didn't think they were similar at all, if it's these two you're referring to. In fact I had clipped them last night and was still mulling it over.
I thought on the "William Hairyes marriage or birth?" thread you also said you thought they were very different.
A 19th-century case of stolen identity? :confused:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pZou3_4SJ2I/TwUoShyHHAI/AAAAAAAAApY/oz6Jhaz1xG8/s320/signatures.jpg
Well, I hope noone ever compares my signatures from years apart!! I agree they are not particularly similar, but I don't think we can make anything of that fact alone. If Wm 2 was an imposter then I would have expected him to make a better job of the forgery!
Suppose you're right. Tossing that one in the trash. :o:d
I don't think we can ever say we are right! lol Just some things are more or less likely than others!
I still think Zoe should be getting the 1890 death cert for William.
Olde Crone
06-01-12, 08:59
Hmmm, I still think that Hannah was born with indecent haste, unless as Mary says, she was Elizabeth's chld but not William's.
So almost certainly the same man then.
OC
Mary from Italy
06-01-12, 11:47
There's a third signature to look at here (Zoe put up the image of the 1847 cert on the old thread, in post #226):
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10634&page=23
Mary from Italy
06-01-12, 11:48
I still think Zoe should be getting the 1890 death cert for William.
Yes, at least it might confirm whether Mary Ann was still alive.
Hi thanks once again for your fantastic effots to find mary ann it appears mention samuel hairyes address from my research box. samuel hairyes aged 22 married married harriet hairyes aged 21 in the parish of new wortley in 10th september 1904 (fathers name is william hairyes railiway porter decesed.the addres appears to be 11 hoqoucard street,new wortley,leeds and harriot lived same street number 14 very intresting my sourcce is ancestry. if this is correct does it mean samuel was ony 8 years old on williams death. so will that rule him out of living with his stepmother mary ann hoys,any help once again would be gratefully recived especially with the spelling!! of the street,as you know im not comuter literate and have no scanner.many thanks from zoe
Hi thanks once again for your fantastic effots to find mary ann it appears mention samuel hairyes address from my research box. samuel hairyes aged 22 married married harriet hairyes aged 21 in the parish of new wortley in 10th september 1904 (fathers name is william hairyes railiway porter decesed.the addres appears to be 11 hoqoucard street,new wortley,leeds and harriot lived same street number 14 very intresting my sourcce is ancestry. if this is correct does it mean samuel was ony 8 years old on williams death. so will that rule him out of living with his stepmother mary ann hoys,any help once again would be gratefully recived especially with the spelling!! of the street,as you know im not comuter literate and have no scanner.many thanks from zoe
The street is Hugomont Street (it's spelled Hougomont though)
I don't understand what you mean about Samuel's age ruling him out of living with his stepmother?
Mary from Italy
06-01-12, 21:58
I've found the marriage on Ancestry:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249503-00482&fn=Samuel&ln=Hairyes&st=d&ssrc=&pid=9279672
The address appears to be Hougomont Street, according to Genuki:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Transcriptions/WRY/LeedsStreets1853.html
This looks like Samuel's birth:
Births Dec 1881
HAIRYES Samuel Bramley 9b 381
so if William died in the 2nd quarter of 1890 (which you need the death cert to confirm), Samuel would have been about 8.
kiterunner
06-01-12, 21:59
Samuel was born towards the end of 1881 so yes, he was 8 when William died, but I don't get why that would rule him out from living with his stepmother? I would have thought it was pretty likely that he would be with her?
The street name from Samuel's marriage cert looks to be Hougomont Street.
hope this of intrest-another child ada hairyes was baptized at armley hall in the county of york september 25th 1877.mothers name is elizabeth hogg fathers name william hairyes railway porter street adress prince street new wortley.no help of bbut this must a child who died infancy,could the princes street addres where he lived with mary ann? cant mmake out a number for adreess .sourced from ancestry any help wold be welcome
I meant it's spelled 'Hugomont' today.
apolgies wasnt thinking corectly !there of course he could be living with mary ann at age 8 he would have needed a gurdian.I wonder if sameul was living in 11 hugmont street new wortley in 1890 with mary ann?
kiterunner
06-01-12, 22:10
Ada's baptism just shows the address as Prince Augustus St, Prince St but the birth certificate would likely give you the house number.
hope this of intrest-another child ada hairyes was baptized at armley hall in the county of york september 25th 1877.mothers name is elizabeth hogg fathers name william hairyes railway porter street adress prince street new wortley.no help of bbut this must a child who died infancy,could the princes street addres where he lived with mary ann? cant mmake out a number for adreess .sourced from ancestry any help wold be welcome
Well we have a different address for 1881 don't we? I remember posting it here last time you mentioned the 1877 address.
kiterunner
06-01-12, 22:18
There only seem to be even numbers on Hougomont Street in 1891 and when I try to view the image on ancestry there is an error loading the page at the moment.
The baptism address is Prince Augustus Street, Prince Street.
bbut this must a child who died infancy
Births Mar 1877
Hairyes Ada Whorler Bramley 9b 445
Deaths Dec 1877
HAIRYES Ada Waller 0 Bramley 9b 248
Zoe, how are you recording all your family history data?
There was another address in 1890.
Mary from Italy
06-01-12, 22:25
I've done an address search for Hougomont Street in 1891 and 1901, but there are no odd numbers coming up, only even numbers. I've found a Hougomont Place in 1891, and there is a no. 11, but there's a Jagger family living there.
I have written notes and print outs from ancestry played in a large box file! very disorgised. i know goodnight evryone and thanks once again.
Zoe, do you have your tree online anywhere we can see it? I feel I have done the same lookups a 100 times each because I don't have a tree to look at and so keep going round in circles!
Sorry, cross posted.
I think you need a family history program. The sooner you start one the better because it can be very daunting if you have a lot of info to put on at once. So, it's probably already going to be daunting, but it would save so much time in the end!!
kiterunner
06-01-12, 22:28
Found Hougomont Street in an 1894 street directory on the Historical Directories website, and there are only even numbers then. Hougomont Place had odd numbers but no Hairyes there. I also found a transcription of the 1891 census which lists a family called Jagger at 11 Hougomont Place.
Mary from Italy
06-01-12, 22:30
I've checked the 1894 street directory, which shows all the odd numbers in Hougomont Place and the even numbers in Hougomont Street. No Hairyes at no. 11, though.
Mary from Italy
06-01-12, 22:31
We're doing exactly the same searches, Kite :)
Olde Crone
07-01-12, 08:57
I don't know if this is of any use, but in 1890 (August 24th, to be precise) John Hairyes (born c 1863?) was living at 22 Clyde St Wollington Rd, New Wortley, Leeds. Samuel (and James) might be with him in 1891.
OC
He has his wife, Rebecca, two daughters and brother William (18) with him on that census, but no one else listed.
Olde Crone
07-01-12, 09:29
Thanks Merry.that eliminates that, then!
OC
I find it mildly surprising that when Wm and Mary Ann were married there wasn't a baby straight away and were none after that either. I do wonder if she had already departed the marriage by the time Wm died, but I don't know how we could establish that unless she registered his death and we can therefore say they were probably still together until he died. I know I am partly basing these ideas on the large age difference between them, along with the probability they married mainly because she was pregnant. I realise this doesn't have to be the scenario though!!
Olde Crone
07-01-12, 09:44
Yes, I thought it odd too.
There's this possibility of course:
Henry Hairyes born/died 1887.
EDIT - and maybe Elizabeth, born/died 1883. this is after the death of Elizabeth Hogg, before the marriage to Mary Ann Hoys.
OC
Wm already had a son called Henry so I think that Henry is probably a child of John and Rebecca asIi think his birth fits between their first two surviving daughters. In 1911 Rebecca says 7,5,2 for her children and I'm thinking the 2 are Henry and her firstborn Elizabeth.
(you see Zoe, because I don't have your tree set up in front of me I keep doing the same lookups over and over and over and over again - I don't know how you are managing to do the research if you don't have a family tree program or an online tree at all - it's so difficult if you can't easily cross reference the data you already have)
Olde Crone
07-01-12, 09:56
Yes, of course, I'd forgotten about Henry the first!
OC
Hi everyone Zoe here hope everyones ok? just as a final update to this thread, I receved the death certificate for William Hairyes that you recomned I purchase and on it it states. signature of informent John Hairyes son 22 clyde street new wortley attendence. Merrys conclusions were correct,Mary Ann Hoys must have left William Hairyes before his death.Thankyou once again everyone and Merry for your brilliant investigation skills ,absulutley outstanding great research, many thanks Zoe
It's great to hear you have the death cert Zoe, but I don't know how it proves Mary Ann had left William? It only shows she didn't register his death.
good point your right merry I never thought of that perhaps John registered the death because Mary ann was too upset to do so, but it also states william hairyes last adress and his cause of death,occupation when he died and the actually day william died and John Hairyes adress on this date ,it does have a lot of inforantion on such a document,that I did not have thankyou for you advice to buy it .it has been a reveation to find out these points, have a great weekend kind regards Zoe
Did he die at the informant's residence (22 Clyde Street) or somewhere else? What other addresses are on the cert (if any) other than 22 Clyde St? Other addresses might reveal something on the 1891 census.
the adress william died at on the death certificate was 13 greenland street, new wortley . william died on 25th May 1890 aged 59 the only other adress is 22 clyde street.new wortley informant John Hairyes Son,kind regards and thankyou, Zoe
In 1891 there is William Johnson and his wife, Elizabeth, living at 13 Greenland St. They are both from Norfolk. No time to check them out further now, but it's not obvious there is any connection.
thankyou very much for checking I will have to try and obtain the correct death certificate for Mary Ann Hoys Hairyes in the future to find out for certain what happend next ,thanks everyone have a woderfull sunny weekend ! Kind regards Zoe
I will have to try and obtain the correct death certificate for Mary Ann Hoys Hairyes
Well, good luck with that!!
kiterunner
09-05-13, 18:24
In 1891 there is William Johnson and his wife, Elizabeth, living at 13 Greenland St. They are both from Norfolk. No time to check them out further now, but it's not obvious there is any connection.
That census entry was already posted earlier on in this thread (post #29).
That census entry was already posted earlier on in this thread (post #29).
Oh yes. Thanks Kate! I hadn't remembered it was on the burial record.
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