Help Needed Please.

[Durham Lady]

I'd appreciate your opinions about this please. Sorry for such a long winded post but I'm trying to get my thoughts in some sort of order. I'm getting more and more confused by the hour :confused:

Mt 2x great grandfather John NORTHEY married Agness COX at St Austell in 1822. The name NORTHEY is often spelt NORTHY.

Parish records entry 443 in The Parish Church St. Austell Cornwall, John Northey of this parish batchelor to Agnes Cox of this parish Spinster by banns 9th November 1822. He made his mark but she signed the register Agness Cox in the presence of Samuel Cox and John Northey both who made their mark. No age was recorded and no indication if Samuel and John were their father's but "think" they could be.

I know Agnes's father to be Samuel but she also had a brother of the same name.

My cousin and I have thought John the witness is probably also John's father and this could be John Snr's marriage although we have not added any parents for our g g grandfather to our tree s we've no proof.

NORTHY John, batchelor, to Jane DARLINSTON, spinster, 26th Dec 1797 Gwennap.

Our main problem is we can't find a baptism for John Jnr with those parents and on the only census, 1851, before he died that could have given us his birthplace to help find a baptism, it says not known, although in 1841 it does say in county.

I have had someone living in Canada contact me this week who is insisting that the marriage of john N and Jane Darlinston is not the correct parents but doesn't seem to have proof for what he's telling me as an alternative.

Here's what he is saying.

My wife's 2G-Grandparents are John (abt.1771-1844) &
Jennifer/Jane/Janefer (abt 1770-1848) Northey whom we believe married
about 1793 in St. Austell.

John & Janefer's daughter Thomasin(a) was bp.3 Sep 1815, and married
William Northcott(e) on 1 Apr 1840 in St. Austell. They almost
immediately emigrated to Ontario Canada and settled in Durham County,
where (much) later my wife's father was born in Pontypool.


My research has been brickwalled at John & Janefer for the last 20
years. A couple of years ago my wife took a DNA test in hopes of
making some family connections. Even though it has found lots of
distant cousins, none so far are via Northey ancestors.

BTW, in my family tree I show 8 children for John & Janefer --
Jennifer (1794), John (1801-1860), Mary Ann (Dec 1803), Jennifer
(1806), Elizabeth (1809), William (1811), Thomasin (1815-1884),
Samuel (1818-1884).


What bothers me is the abt on all dates and he seems to think the names Jennifer/Jane/Janefer are being used for 1 person.

When I mentioned John who married Jane Darlinston at Gwennap in 1797 this is what he said.

I don't believe they are the ones. Likely the John you want is the one buried in St. Austell on 11 Jul 1844.
His wife was also buried there on 29 Mar 1848. He then went on to say,
I would really love to know what name is shownfor her on the gravestone -- Jane or Janefer. When you photographed John/Agnes gravestone did you find the other one for (his father)John died 1844?

My answer to that was no I didn't look for a grave as A) John and Agnes's headstone is at Charlestown and B) I had no proof that John's father was also John.

As it happens I do know there are burial records in St Austell Parish Church records for John and Jane.

St Austell Burials

1844 11-Jul Northey John Mt. Charles 72y

1848 29-Mar Northey Jane Mt. Charles 77y

This man is also telling me I should hurry to get a DNA test done as his wife had one done, they are on special offer at the moment and it would show if we had DNA that matched. :d

I really do need help here please if anyone can get their head around all this.:)

[tenterfieldjulie]

Daphne, I joined the Penwith forum in Cornwall where I had a discussion about our Bryants. Cornish Terrier told me that Jane and Jennifer were interchangeable.

[ElizabethHerts]

Daphne, I too have Cornish heritage and my 4x great-grandmother was Jane or Jenefer Bennett, later Quintrell, from St Blazey, just outside St Austell.

Julie is correct: Jane and Jenefer (or variants of the spelling) are interchangeable in Cornwall.

[Durham Lady]

Thanks Julie and Elizabeth, I've heard that before, my cousin was told the same when he visited the CFH Society office, it does seem odd though.
We've always had plenty of Jane's in the family line but never anyone as Janefer/Jennifer and John and Agness do seem to have used family names for all their children and all their children did too.

What I wonder about is this chap doesn't seem to have a date of marriage for a John and janefer/Jennifer/Jane but has found some baptisms for children who's mother is Janefer and Jennifer so is happy to say they are all one family and why would he discount the marriage of John and Jane Darlinston, as the 2 deaths could quite easily be the same couple who would have been born C 1771/2.
This is one of those branches that I feel I need to be dotting a few for I's and crossing T's but wonder if I'm being over cautious.

[Olde Crone]

Oh, another Faraway Wishing Tree, lol.

Do NOt waste your money on any DNA tests. (Unless someone else is paying.) As you are a female it will only isolate your mother's mt-dna. Even if you took the test and it showed that you are both descended from Jane/Janefer, it doesn't rule out either of you bing descended from Jane/Jenefer's sister/mother/auntie/granny etc.

(The Jane/Janefer thingy is down to the Cornish accent, which would say "Jannifer").

Also, there's a suspicious gap in "his" births - there may have been infant deaths and so on, but it is still a concern to fill in that gap.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

The "abt" isn't necessarily a problem.

When I enter people born before Civil Registration in my tree, even where I have an exact baptism date, I always put "abt" for the year of birth, because they weren't necessarily born in the year of baptism.

As far as witnesses go, I've found with my tree that male family witnesses are almost always brothers, not fathers, of the spouses.

[Durham Lady]

Thanks OC, I had a feeling it was you who knew something re DNA testing and yes I think there's suspicious gaps in the births.

Mary, I don't think my g g grandfather John would have a brother of the same name, I suppose he might have, but if it isn't his father then could be a cousin, this is another one of the reason's I have always stalled with this family line.

[Olde Crone]

Mary

I personally only use "abt" when it really is a guess. Before civil reg, if I have a baptism, I would put "born before 4 April 1797" which would be the baptism date.

OC

[kiterunner]

Northey baptisms on FamilySearch, all in Cornwall:
John 4 Jan 1800 Kea, parents John and Jenefer - buried 28 May 1800 Kenwyn, father John.
John 22 Mar 1801 Kenwyn, parents John and Jenefer
Mary Ann 22 Jan 1804 Kenwyn, parents John and Jane
Jenifer 25 May 1806 Gwennap, parents John and Jenifer (surname is spelt Northy on this one)
Elizabeth 2 Mar 1809 Gwennap, parents John and Jennifer
William 19 Jul 1811 Gwennap, parents John and Jenifer
Thomasin 3 Sep 1815 St Austell, parents John and Jennifer
Samuel 17 May 1818 St Austell, parents John and Jenifer

There is a Jenifer Northey baptism on there 18 Apr 1794 at Kea but it only gives the father's name (John Northey). Also Sophia Northey baptised 7 Nov 1797 at Kenwyn and buried 10 Nov 1797 at Kenwyn, father John.

There is a couple called John and Mary Northey having children baptised at Kenwyn in the 1780's and 1790's and they had a Jenefer in 1799 who could be given the same name as an earlier child if she died young but they had a Grace baptised 26 Dec 1793 which seems a bit too close to that Jenifer in Kea 18 Apr 1794. But there's also a couple called John and Grace having children baptised in Kenwyn in the 1790's so I wonder if they could be the parents of the 1794 Jenifer (bother, no, looks like they got married in 1797).


It might help to have a look at the actual PR's (and BT's too if available) to see if there is any more info that might help confirm the family groupings. Also witnesses' names from marriages for John's possible siblings.

[kiterunner]

I'm just looking at some of the Cornwall PR images on FamilySearch now but it might take a while. If the St Austell marriages for around 1793 are on there then you could look at them to see whether or not there is a John Northey marriage and tell your contact if you find that there definitely isn't one (or if there is!)

[Olde Crone]

May not be relevant but

Kea and Kenwyn are neighbouring parishes. From either of those, it isn't very far to Gwennap - about 6 miles. St Austell though, is 20 miles away. Do we know what John's occupation was?

OC

[Durham Lady]

Thanks Kite, I've seen all of those and I think Family Search and the Cornwall Parish Clerks site is where this chap has taken his information from.

He's admitted he doesn't have details of a marriage to substantiate what he says here,

My wife's 2G-Grandparents are John (abt.1771-1844) &
Jennifer/Jane/Janefer (abt 1770-1848) Northey whom we believe married
about 1793 in St. Austell

All he can come up with is the baptism of the child Jenifer Northey on the 18 Apr 1794 and because her father was John he's decided her mother must be Jenifer and she was named after her mother!
He's not remotely interested in the the marriage of John to Jane Darlinston and that the other children could be their's if Jane was then called jenifer.

OC, I am not sure at all about John Senior's occupation but my g g grandfather and his sons were all copper or tin miners so moved around from place to place in Cornwall and even into Devon.
My g grandfather was born at Boscundle, married at St Blazey, moved around Cornwall and Devon, Children were born at St Blazey, Par, Hatches green near Calstock and Tavistock then he took his family all the way to Northumberland to mine coal where he lost his life.
It's not surprising I like to travel with the ancestors I have:d

I've been in touch with a 2nd cousin who lives in Staffordshire and he says he'll go into the records office next time he's in Cornwall to see if there's anything else that's not on FS and the Parish Clerks site. he goes down regularly so with luck not too long to wait.

[kiterunner]

Well, I reckon you're right about the parents' marriage.

And father's occupation on the baptisms of Thomasin (1815) and Samuel (1818) is Miner.

[Merry]

I'm not sure I've read everything properly, but are you saying your contact accepts a person who was buried with the name Jane as being previously being called Jenifer, but he can't accept his Jenifer being called Jane at marriage?

Have you found a baptism for Jenifer/Jane Darlinston? (or is Darlinston a common name in Cornwall?)

[Merry]

So this bap:

Day Month 20-Aug
Year 1780
Parish Or Reg District Gwennap
Forename Jenefer
Surname DARLINSTONE
Sex dau
Father Forename James
Mother Forename Dorcas

fits with the marriage to John Northey, but not well with the burial?

[tenterfieldjulie]

Daphne when I work out when I'll be in Cornwall, you might like to come with me? When are you going to Holland?

[ElizabethHerts]

Daphne, have a look at the Family Search site:


England, Cornwall Parish Registers, 1538-2010
Cornwall
Kea

Event Type and Year Range (with Volume)

Baptisms, 1841-1902
Baptisms, Burials, 1800-1841
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1559-1654
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1653-1700
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1701-1799
Burials, 1813-1873
Burials, 1873-1901
Marriage banns, 1868-1902
Marriage banns, Marriages, 1756-1812
Marriages, 1813-1837
Marriages, 1837-1858
Marriages, 1859-1908

England, Cornwall Parish Registers, 1538-2010
Cornwall
Kenwyn

Event Type and Year Range (with Volume)

Baptisms, 1813-1829
Baptisms, 1829-1856
Baptisms, 1856-1901
Baptisms, Burials, 1774-1804
Baptisms, Burials, 1805-1812
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1660-1697
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1662-1696
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1678-1773
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1679-1773
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1774-1812
Burials, 1813-1842
Burials, 1843-1865
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.familysearch.org%2Frec ords%2Fwaypoint%2F13750833


Burials, 1843-1874
Burials, 1865-1874
Burials, 1874-1883
Burials, 1883-1890
Burials, 1890-1901
Burials, 1890-1915
Burials, 1915-1950
Burials, 1950-1959
Marriage banns, 1754-1772
Marriage banns, 1836-1844
Marriage banns, 1844-1853
Marriage banns, 1853-1900



Marriage banns, Marriages, 1772-1784
Marriages, 1754-1811
Marriages, 1811-1812
Marriages, 1813-1838
Marriages, 1829-1841
Marriages, 1837-1844
Marriages, 1844-1852
Marriages, 1852-1861
Marriages, 1861-1900
Marriages, 1861-1906


St Blazey is also there (I'm having another look at these).

[Durham Lady]

I'm not sure I've read everything properly, but are you saying your contact accepts a person who was buried with the name Jane as being previously being called Jenifer, but he can't accept his Jenifer being called Jane at marriage?

Have you found a baptism for Jenifer/Jane Darlinston? (or is Darlinston a common name in Cornwall?)

Yes Merry, that's correct, he seems to have decided that the child who's mother is not listed is the key to the parents of all the children he's found with mother Jane or Jenifer and as she was baptised in 1794 then the parents must have married prior to that, so, John to Jane Darlinston can not be the correct marriage, plus, the mother must be Jenifer because the child would have been named after her :d I think I'll remind him of the naming pattern where a first daughter is usually named for the maternal grandmother.
Now to look for a copy of that.

This is as bad as Margaret from the IOW trying to find her family who all seem to have been baptised with one name and always known by another :d

Julie, I go to The Netherlands from 10th to 14th May and to Cardiff from 15th to 18th June.
I have said to Phil I need to go down to Cornwall for a few days to look at records for myself.
I will have to wait until he's finally retired and I can take the car away and he's home all day to look after the animals. The end of March is getting nearer :)



Elizabeth, you sneaked in there LOL, snap, that was going to be my task today between all the other things I need to do. Think I'll be buying a birthday cake for my OH, I won' have time to make one and it's his birthday tomorrow. :)

[Merry]

So this bap:

Day Month 20-Aug
Year 1780
Parish Or Reg District Gwennap
Forename Jenefer
Surname DARLINSTONE
Sex dau
Father Forename James
Mother Forename Dorcas

fits with the marriage to John Northey, but not well with the burial?

That bap is probably irrelevant, as the baby seems to have died:

Burial
Day Month 20-Aug
Year 1780
Parish Or Reg District Gwennap
Forename Jenefer
Surname DARLINSTON

[Merry]

This one is much better!

Day Month 30-May
Year 1773
Parish Or Reg District Gwennap
Forename Jenefer
Surname DARLISTON
Sex dau
Father Forename William
Mother Forename Jenefer

[Merry]

I was just looking at the other children of Wm and Jenifer D and mum is recorded as Jane every time, except for Jenifer's bap!

[Durham Lady]

Merry, that does sound promising, got to go shopping now but will gather all I can and try to put it in some sort of order. I feel almost sure the John to Jane marriage is the one I want, I'll send i to my cousin in Staffordshire, he gets more spare time than me :;d