View Full Version : having a little trouble, and no it's not the Downings...
......well, yes actually it is. I lied.
Can anyone tell me where to look next please, because I am going around in ever more complicated and frustrating circles with this one.
ALL my male Downings with the exception of one, were iron founders on the censuses, and all lived in the Durham area.
Now, there were a few Iron Foundries with the name Downing attached, as follows:
Nicholas & George Downing, Iron Founders, chester le street.
This one is accounted for......the partnership between these two (brothers) dissolved in 1830 and George continued alone until his death in 1843 when his family auctioned everything off. End of company.
Nicholas set up on his own, and had a large foundry and timber yard in Shildon (he appears on 1861 census), but in November 1858 appears to have run into financial difficulties. This Company was, I think, Nicholas Downing Iron Foundry and Timber. He died in 1866
In 1880 a very large Foundry was established,just after the dissolution of a partnership between Nicholas Downing and John Matthew Henderson, and this was known as N. Downing & Sons Ltd., Ironfounders (they were known as the Doyen of drainmakers!.........nice), and in fact this company was passed down through the generations until finally closing in the 1990s.
I have searched Companies House, and of course they only list Limited companies, so the last one above was the only one there........sadly there were no records or information available.
My tree is full of Nicholas bleeping Downings, and I am running out of ideas as to where to look to find out just who had what and who worked for whom.
Nicholas Downing born c. 1790 Durham
Nicholas Downing born 1820 Durham
Nicholas Downing born 1851 Durham
To complicate things further, there are more Nicholas Downings, including one born 1786 with a son Nicholas born 1840
the newspapers have not helped, and the censuses don't give any clues. I have tried to find Wills in NA but have had no luck. I think that I might curl up in a corner until Spring
Mary from Italy
06-10-09, 20:53
Have you tried the Gazette?
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/home.aspx?GeoType=London
Thank you Mary, I hadn't but after a quick look it only has the information that I already have.;(
I will look at more depth tomorrow
kiterunner
06-10-09, 21:58
Their wills wouldn't be in the National Archives, would they? I think they would be most likely either at the local record office for Durham or at the Borthwick Institute in York.
kiterunner
06-10-09, 22:49
British Origins has indexes to some of the wills held at the Borthwick, and the free name search says they (British Origins) have one Nicholas Downing will listed among all their will indexes but as I haven't got a sub I don't know which index it's in:
http://www.origins.net/Welcome.aspx
Have you tried contacting the local studies libraries in the area? Downings may appear in street directories, there may be obituaries in local newspapers etc etc. Some NE newspapers are online in the c19th local newspapers database.
kiterunner
07-10-09, 11:21
I just realised that at least one of your Nicholas Downings died after 1858, Sally, so you could look to see if he / they appear in the National Probate Calendar. Or if you can't get to an office that holds it, if you give me the date(s) of death I can go and look them up for you.
Thank you Phoenix, I have looked at loads of newspapers and there are many interesting snippets, but nothing that actually pinpoints the information that I am after.
Kite, I am going to buy a month's worth on the Origins site to see if I can find anything there and if not then I might take you up on your offer - thank you so much
Sally
Well, I can only say that I am stunned by the lack of information on that site.....and it seemed so promising too!! That tantalising will for Nicholas Downing completely disappeared once I had paid my sub, grrrrrrrr. Every time I tried to find some information (apart from the censuses which I already have on Ancestry of course) it came up with no results. Also, I was drawn by the promise of rare photos etc., but it seems that these are all in books which can be purchased for the site shop. I will go and have another look in case I am being thick, but I feel a little conned to be honest. Not your fault at all Kite.......it was the way the introduction to the site was written that drew me in.
It's probably an excellent site for some people, but it doesn't work for me;(
kiterunner
07-10-09, 22:03
Oh dear, I'm so sorry to have made you waste your money, Sally. I just realised that the default on the free search is "+ close variants", and I never thought of trying exact match only as well. If you do that, the match does disappear, so there must be a Nicholas listed with a surname similar to Downing. It was very late here when I looked, though, and I had to get off the computer and go to bed!
If you took out a month's sub then you have to make sure it doesn't get automatically renewed at the end of the month, i.e. cancel it in time. If I want to look at stuff on there I go for the 72 hour sub because that one doesn't get automatically renewed.
Kite.......please don't say sorry, because it was my decision to subscribe for a month!! (I thought that it was better value than the other option). Yes, I had spotted the automatic renewal thing and will go and sort that out now before I forget.
kiterunner
13-10-09, 11:15
I found a couple of entries in the National Probate Calendar who I'm sure are yours, and one who almost certainly isn't, but I thought it would be worth noting his details down so you can eliminate him from your enquiries!
1867 DOWNING Nicholas - Effects under £450.
1 April
The Will of Nicholas Downing late of Old Shildon in the County of Durham Iron Founder deceased who died 11 September 1866 at Old Shildon aforesaid was proved at Durham by the oaths of Robert Cook of Blackpool in the County of Lancaster Wesleyan Minister and William Brown of Old Shildon aforesaid Colliery Viewer the Executors.
1921
DOWNING Nicholas of Glenbrook Victoria-avenue Stockton-on-Tees died 21 August 1920. Probate London 6 July to Esther Downing widow. Effects £5387 11s 11d.
And the one I don't think is yours -
30 Dec 1872 Nicholas Downing of Middlesbrough, Cab Proprietor, died 4 Dec 1872. Executors Isaac Fidler of Middlesbrough, builder, Wright Derwent of Middlesbrough, schoolmaster, and John Downing of Middlesbrough, moulder, and Nicholas Downing of Middlesbrough, moulder, the sons.
Just quickly to say thank you so much Kate for your time and trouble....I will look more carefully at those and come back in a few minutes. I actually think that the third one is related too.
Okay, you are a complete star Kate.
The first Nicholas who died 1866, was the brother of my great great great grandfather, who owned an extensive foundry and also timber yard but who got into financial difficulties, and it seems that he died virtually penniless. Would I be right in assuming that his foundry would no longer exist in the Downing name? It does seem most unlikely now, so I can perhaps cross that one off my list of possibilities.
The second Nicholas, was the brother of my great grandmother and son of the Nicholas Downing that I suspect founded the foundry which continued in existence up until the 1980s. As there were three other brothers, who all were iron founders then it is possible that they were joint directors of the company.
The third Nicholas is definitely related, and I have to look into him further. I already have his death certificate.
thank you so much again
Sally
Hmmmm, now I am really puzzled, because I am almost sure that the Nicholas Downing, Cab Proprietor who died in 1872 was my Nicholas and therefore EX Iron founder. The two executors for his will were two of his sons by the looks of things, and the address is the right area........must just check where they were living.
Bingo.......although Nicholas is missing on the 1871 census (I have previously asked for help in finding him), his wife Mary is living in Middlesborough along with four of their children, and Middlesborough is where Nicholas died.
I have some thoughts here, which perhaps someone could comment on or disagree with.
My great great great grandfather had an iron foundry in Chester Le Street, and he died of Consumption (the foundry was sold after his death), two of his sons who were iron founders both died young of Consumption. One other son was not working in the foundry, and was a joiner.....he emigrated to America along with two of his sisters, and they must have been healthy when they left. If the Cab man was indeed my Nicholas, then he died of Asthma. The thing is, could these terms have been blanket descriptions of lung conditions, as I have discovered that the iron dust in foundries was carconogenic, and also caused a very nasty lung condition the name of which I forget.
Oh drat and double drat. Nope, the death cert that I have for the Cab man puts him at 67 in 1872 and this makes it hopelessly wrong.
Okay - I have glued back the hair that I just tore out.
Am I being thick, or is this lot truly very difficult?;(
So, there are presumably two Nicholas Downings who died in 1872 - one the Cab man whose certificate I have who died in Middlesborough, but whose age seems totally wrong. The two sons named on probate have the same names as "my" Nicholas. Also, my Nicholas's wife Mary is shown living in Middlesborough in 1871. Neither of the Nicholases appear on the 1871 census.
I have sent off for the other death cert, which seems to have been mistranscribed as "Downey", but the age at death is correct as is the area of Chester Le Street.
Now to a further puzzle, which is the one that has consistently confused me. Nicholas Downing Cabman, who by his death cert was born in 1805, does not figure on ANY of the censuses that I can see.
Oh hellllppppppppp.
Neither of the Nicholases appear on the 1871 census.
Ths is the Middlesbrough one in 1871:
RG10; Piece: 4893; Folio: 58; Page: 4;
Spookily there's a Nicholas Downey in Chester le Street in 1841! lol Is he the other one who died in 1872? He's an Iron Founder, son of George (by the look of it, no relationships, of course).
I'm afraid my McCrerys have addled my brain so I've not taken in all you said!
Thank you Merry, you have injected a little sense into my muddled brain. I just didn't spot that one for some ridiculous reason. I had to laugh though, because he even has a wife called Mary, the same as my Nicholas!
So, the two are most definitely two different men. A result for the evening
Yes, that Nicholas Downey is my Nicholas Downing in 1841!! My brain is more addled than yours, and it is not helped by a couple of glasses of alcohol.........large ones.
(Don't try this at home children)
So, do you have your 1820 iron founder on all the censuses except the 1871?
(I've had three measures!)
Yes, and in 1871 his wife Mary didn't say that she was widowed and in 1881 she did. So the certificate that I am waiting for (mistranscribed as Downey) should be the right one.
Bet my measures are bigger than yours
I've got wine in tumblers.....
wHERE WAS HE BORN? Oops -caps lock!! :D
I bet he was on the original householders schedule but got missed when the enumerator was copying onto the folio! No head of house and Mary listed as wife.....it's possible :D
he was born Chester le Street in Durham, and yes you may be right. Annoying though it is.
My wine glass holds a third of a bottle
My wine glass holds a third of a bottle
Oooh, lucky you!!! :p
Saves getting up and down too many times Merry!!!
Thank you to both you and Kite, because tonight I have established a couple of facts which has helped greatly.
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