View Full Version : James Jefferies (Week 5 - FFFFMF)
Name - "official" name and what they were known as
James Jefferies
Date and place of birth
About 1783 probably in Mangotsfield, Gloucestershire
Names of parents
William Jefferies and Mary ?
Date and place of baptism - if applicable
23rd April 1783 at St James', Mangotsfield, Gloucestershire
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any
About 1801/2 ro Elizabeth unknown
Occupation(s) - if any
A contact told me he was a tailor but I don't know how they knew that. Possibly from the marriage certificate of one of his younger children.
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
I didn't have access to any census before 1881 when I last looked at this part of my tree, so may well be something to look for. All his children were bap in Mangotsfield up to 1829 so probably lived and died there.
Date, place and cause of death
Unknown
Date and place of burial.
Unknown
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
Unknown
Memorial inscription - if any
Unknown
Link to 3xg-grandmother, Elizabeth Jefferies:
http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=10545&highlight=elizabeth+jefferies
In case anyone wants to check the census for James and Elizabeth whilst I am sunbathing, the children are:
Eliz bap 1802 (my 3xg)
James bap 1804
William Sandall bap 1807
Joseph bap 1809
Joseph bap 1810
Henry bap 1814
Charles bap 1814
Ann bap 1823
James bap 1823
Francis bap 1823
Mary Ann bap 1826
Francis bap 1828
Jane Elizabeth bap 1829
Maybe the later ones will be with parents?
In 1841 Mary Ann and Frances (spelt female way but age in male column) are living in the house of Thomas Drake, a Tailor in Kingswood, Mangotsfield.
Some relative perhaps?
They do not have any occupation.
Thanks Tom.
Doesn't look good for the parents then :o
I did wonder if Thomas Drake was married to one of the Jefferies daughters, but I just looked on FS and there is a probable bap for the son Thomas, parents Thomas and Elizabeth, but Elizabeth Jefferies is my ancestor, so I can't have her running off and marrying a Drake!
Back to the drawing board!
Thanks again :)
kiterunner
03-09-11, 22:51
I have a CD of baptisms including Mangotsfield, and it gives James' occupation as Tailor on the post-1813 ones. Also Henry is age 2 on his baptism. Then on those 1823 baptisms Anne is born 1817. Abode is "Common Mangotsfield" on those. The first Francis is 1825, not 1823, and abode is Staple Hill (father's occupation still Tailor). Then on the second Francis, abode is Bitton, father still Tailor. For Jane Elizabeth it has mother's name as Lydia, abode Kingswood, tailor. I'll do some more checking tomorrow but I have to go to bed now!
Thank you Kate.
I think I saw Jane Elizabeth on the census with Lydia and wondered something was amiss in my including that baptism as the head of house is James but he is only 35! Only odd bit is that he is a land surveyor which is a bit different to a tailor!
Thanks also for the date correction for Francis.
kiterunner
04-09-11, 10:45
In 1851 Francis is at Potter's Wood, Oldland, Bitton, age 22, railroad something, born hamlet of Oldland, married to Jane 20 born Cheshire Overton, and they have a lodger Thomas Drake age 18 also born hamlet of Oldland. I'll have a look on the CD's for the Drakes to see if I can sort that bit out.
kiterunner
04-09-11, 10:51
I hate to break it to you, but my Bristol marriages CD has a marriage between Thomas Drake and Elizabeth Jefferies, 25 Jul 1831 at St Augustine.
kiterunner
04-09-11, 11:11
Right, there is a marriage 9 Feb 1802 at St Augustine between James Jefferies and Elizabeth Sandell, so they must be the parents of William Sandall Jefferies baptised 1807 at least, and the date looks right for them to be the parents of Elizabeth baptised 1803. But we need to work out if there are two James / Elizabeth families, and if so, which children belong to which couple, don't we? (Or do they all belong to the same couple and your Elizabeth doesn't?)
Oops!
I am happy my 3xg was Elizabeth Jeffereies b abt 1802 Mangotsfield, as I have census up to 1881, death cert, marriage entry, and birth cert of her youngest child which all tie together.
I guess either James and Eliz are not her parents or some of those siblings are not her siblings, or both. There must be two Eliz Jefferies if there are two women in 1841.....
How many Eliz Jefferies do you have in the Mangotsfield baps around 1800+?
I must say a tailor doesn't feel right for this bit of my tree........
Sorry, cross posted and I lost my connection and have to sort out my boiled over potatoes.....
There's one in Nov 1804, dau of Thomas and Amy, who might be the right one.
kiterunner
04-09-11, 11:27
There must be two Eliz Jefferies if there are two women in 1841.....
Thomas Drake doesn't have a wife with him in 1841; I guess she had died before then. Unfortunately I still haven't got a Bristol burials CD. Which means we don't know when she was born. But her parents are likely to be James and Elizabeth, and I can't see another Elizabeth with those parents. But the way the CD works, I have to either plough through the alphabetical index looking at all the different spellings of Jefferies, or plough through pages and pages of Mangotsfield hoping not to miss one! Also I've got to go and hang washing out now it's stopped raining, but will return to this later. Do you know for sure that your Elizabeth was a spinster when she got married, and do you have the witnesses' names from her marriage?
kiterunner
04-09-11, 11:29
There's one in Nov 1804, dau of Thomas and Amy, who might be the right one.
She's listed as Esther on the CD.
The marriage details were sent to me in 2003 by Mike Browning of the Bristol and Avon FHS. I don't know who the witnesses were and I don't know her condition (as he didn;t tell me that presumably because he was working from an index and I have never followed it up), but on her last son's birth cert she is Elizabeth Burchill formerly Jefferies.
Mum will be here soon, so I have to go.
Please don't trawl anything, but I would be interested to know if you can make anything of the Nov 1804 bap (I see Thos and Amy had two children baptised together so one might be older than the other)
She's listed as Esther on the CD.
Oh, not two then. :(
kiterunner
04-09-11, 14:43
Ah, the Burchills have a Jane Jeffries age 93, Ind, Y, with them in 1841. Wonder if we can work out who she is?
Goodness, do they?????? *embarrassed* lol
Oooh yes!! I probably haven't looked at that census in years :o
I wouldn't be against getting her death cert, but it's too early to have the relationship of the informant.
*waits for Kate to tell me who she is* :D
Just putting down anything I find:
Burial:
13838 JEFFERIES , Jane Abode: Mangotsfield
Buried 5 Jan 1842 aged 95 Parish: Siston
kiterunner
04-09-11, 15:08
There are a couple of possible death registrations in Keynsham district, one Mar 1842 and one Mar 1844. I suppose the (right) death cert should say whose widow she was, if she was a widow, but maybe we can work it out without having to pay up.
Edit - it's the first of those two, then!
kiterunner
04-09-11, 15:20
There's a William Jefferies marrying a Jane Jefferies 4 Apr 1771 at Mangotsfield. Or a Samuel Jeffris marrying a Jane Jeffris 28 May 1764. There seem to be a lot of Jeffrieses around there, all marrying each other!
lol
I will get the death cert as she is bound to be a relative.
Thanks for your help Kate!
I can't say I mind about James and Elizabeth as I was never too happy with James' baptism. I'm quite happy to exchange him, esp if it's for the right person :)
Maybe my 1802 Elizabeth didn't realise she was b in a neaby parish, not Mangotsfield?
kiterunner
04-09-11, 15:33
There are loads of Elizabeth Jeffries baptised in nearby parishes!
kiterunner
04-09-11, 15:43
A few public trees on ancestry have your Elizabeth being the daughter of Robert Jeffries born 1776 and Jane born 1776. But none of them has much info showing where they got this from, nor info about Robert or Jane.
kiterunner
04-09-11, 15:57
Looking through the baptisms, that means the owners of those trees think she is Betty Jennings Jeffery baptised 19 Jun 1803 at Dyrham, daughter of Robert Jefferies of Marshfield and Jane Jennings who got married 19 Jan 1795 at Dyrham. But there is a Betty Jeffries who got married in Dyrham in 1825 so I don't think they're likely to be right.
kiterunner
04-09-11, 16:46
Actually I think your best bet is going to be to get that Jane Jeffries death cert - there are so many Jeffrieses around there!
I am getting it Kate!
I can't get wildly enthusiastic about this line - I don't know why not. They get quite interesting in the later part of the century. Maybe it's because I feel it will be difficult to pin down the right people for certain......
anne fraser
04-09-11, 20:55
Staple Hill. Mangotsfield, Bitton, Kingswood and Potters wood are all close together and within walking distance of me. Here is a link to South Gloucestershire burials http://www.bafhs.org.uk/burial-data/burial-index/catalog?letter=j&start=200
Thanks Anne - there's another site made much more tricky to search after a re-vamp!
kiterunner
04-09-11, 21:36
I see that site has a William Jefferies buried 21 Sep 1828 at Siston, age 82, abode Mangotsfield. Could be Jane's husband?
Possibly....Other times I have tried to work out something like this, the elderly person has turned out to be single! lol
anne fraser
05-09-11, 13:00
I went to school with a couple of the Jeffries family from Mangotsfield. The family are funeral directors so records should be accurate.
kiterunner
05-09-11, 14:27
I think there were quite a few Jeffries families there, Anne.
Keynsham district 1841.....292 Smiths.....298 Jefferies lol
I see that site has a William Jefferies buried 21 Sep 1828 at Siston, age 82, abode Mangotsfield. Could be Jane's husband?
Right, the death cert for Jane Jefferies has arrived. She is aged 95 on 28th Dec 1841 and the death is registered by Elizabeth Burchill (present at the death). Jane is recorded as the widow of William Jefferies, tailor. So, I guess the death you mention is her husband.
I couldn't help noticing William was a tailor as that was the occ of the James Jeffereis I originally had assumed was Elizabeth Jefferies father!
So, now I just need to know how William and Jane are connected to Elizabeth! It would be tidy if they were Elizabeth's grandparents, but I am not seeing any records that help me to easily makes that leap :(
Is this going to turn in to another difficult jigsaw puzzle?
Whoever Jane is, I just noticed there's at least one more William who might be her husband.
The one you saw:
JEFFERIES , William Abode: Mangotsfield
Buried 21 Sep 1828 aged 82 Parish: Siston
and this one:
JEFFERIS , William Abode: Mangotsfield
Buried 19 Mar 1821 aged 76 Parish: Siston
This is a submitted entry!
WILLIAM JEFFERIES Pedigree
Male Family
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: JANE JEFFERIES Family
Marriage: 04 APR 1771 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church.
kiterunner
10-09-11, 12:53
I noted down the baptisms of William and Jane's children from the CD but I don't think I posted them up because I was waiting to see whether Jane's husband was William or Samuel. My notes say James 1771, Amy 1775, Ann 1783.
kiterunner
10-09-11, 12:55
This is a submitted entry!
WILLIAM JEFFERIES Pedigree
Male Family
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: JANE JEFFERIES Family
Marriage: 04 APR 1771 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church.
See post #21.
Thanks
I suppose if Jane isn't a direct ancestor of Elizabeth then she might well be a more direct blood relative than purely through her late husband? For instance she might be the sister of Jane's grandfather or something like that (assuming she was a spinster at marriage)
I can't remember why I wasn't happy about Elizabeth being the child of Thomas and Amy Jefferies (bap 1804). I really should make a better effort to record negative thoughts! lol
I don't suppose you could find a marriage of Thomas Jefferies to Amy Jefferies lol (ie Amy being Jane and Wm's daughter)?
I noted down the baptisms of William and Jane's children from the CD but I don't think I posted them up because I was waiting to see whether Jane's husband was William or Samuel. My notes say James 1771, Amy 1775, Ann 1783.
The submitted entries for Wm and Jane are:
12. AMY JEFFERIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 20 MAY 1775 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
8. WILLIAM JEFFERIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 21 AUG 1781 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
6. ANN JEFFERIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 27 JUL 1783 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
10. JANE JEFFERIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 04 FEB 1787 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
14. ELIZABETH JEFFERIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 23 APR 1789 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
kiterunner
10-09-11, 13:13
I must have stopped looking before 1787! Those last two are too young to be parents of your Elizabeth, aren't they? I'll have another look at the baptisms CD to check if it agrees with those, especially William.
Yes they are, I was just making notes really!
Bother:
Groom's Name: Thomas Jefferis
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Amey Powell
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 08 Nov 1803
Marriage Place: St. James, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M17286-6
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1596537
Reference Number:
kiterunner
10-09-11, 13:17
By the way, the marriages CD doesn't give the marital status of the Elizabeth Jeffries who married Thomas Drake in 1831. What if she was a widow and was the mother of the last few James / Elizabeth children in your post #1?
Have to go out now. Back shortly.
By the way, the marriages CD doesn't give the marital status of the Elizabeth Jeffries who married Thomas Drake in 1831. What if she was a widow and was the mother of the last few James / Elizabeth children in your post #1?
Oooh, that would be very nice indeed!
Should the CD give that info? I guess not, so maybe I should investagate the original entry.
kiterunner
10-09-11, 13:26
It gives the info for some of them and not for others, so I'm wondering whether that means the status isn't given on the actual marriage entry. Only one way to find out, I suppose.
kiterunner
10-09-11, 13:28
The Thomas and Amy one is Esther on the CD.
kiterunner
10-09-11, 13:35
Yes, William 1781, Jane 1787 and Elizabeth 1789 are on the CD. One other baptism I missed (child of William and Jane) - Mary, 6 Jun 1773.
kiterunner
10-09-11, 13:42
I've got to go and do some shopping. Back later.
I can't see a burial for a James Jefferies shortly before the Jefferies/Drake marriage or a burial for Elizabeth Drake before 1841. I was hoping to get her age at death.
Kate, does your CD say anything more about the James Jefferies bap in 1771? This entry isn't amongst the submitted ones on the IGI.
If this James lived, he sounds a better prospect for marrying Elizabeth Sandal (sp?) in 1802 than the James I had (who was only about 18 years of age). Not only is his age over 21, but he also has the same occ as William Jefferies.
Of course if we could force the 1802 baptism back on my Elizabeth that could then mean she was caring for her grandmother in 1841!!
kiterunner
10-09-11, 15:47
I was thinking the same thing. All it has is 20 May 1771 James, son of William and Jane Jefferis.
The nearest burial I can see is James Jefferis buried 27 Feb 1831 Siston, age 52 (from FamilySearch combined with findmypast) but the age would be quite a few years out for that James. I haven't looked at the full record on findmypast to see whether he lived in Mangotsfield.
Funny you picked that one, as when I looked at it I was thinking could he be the previous husband of Elizabeth who became Mrs Drake? lol
kiterunner
10-09-11, 16:12
Does it give his residence if you look at the full record?
JEFFERIS , James Abode: Bitton
Buried 27 Feb 1831 aged 52 Parish: Siston
I do wish the burial index told you exactly where the info came from and what years were covered.
Whoever Jane is, I just noticed there's at least one more William who might be her husband.
The one you saw:
JEFFERIES , William Abode: Mangotsfield
Buried 21 Sep 1828 aged 82 Parish: Siston
and this one:
JEFFERIS , William Abode: Mangotsfield
Buried 19 Mar 1821 aged 76 Parish: Siston
I guess this "gentleman" is the 1821 death:
Bank of England Wills Extracts 1717-1845
First name: William
Last name: JEFFERIS
Description: JEFFERIS William. Gent Parish of Mangotsfield,Glos
Place: Mangotsfield
County: Gloucestershire
Book: 18 A-I
Reg: 3785
Film:
Record Type: N
Date: 1822
I guess that makes the burial you found originally more like to be the tailor though some of my other lines are filled with rather dubious "gentlemen" if the person made it past the age of about 70.
kiterunner
10-09-11, 16:33
If you look at the Index to Death Duties Register on findmypast there should be an entry in 1822 for him, which may or may not tell you who his executor was.
I was just looking for it, but I couldn't see him.
Have to go and cook something now......back soon.
Found it - Exor Nicholas Isaac. :confused:
kiterunner
10-09-11, 17:14
I keep thinking your best bet is going to be to get a copy of Elizabeth Jeffries' marriage to whoever it was Burchill and see who the witnesses were. We don't already have their names, do we?
Yes, I guess so and it would be of interest to me anyway.
Thanks for all your help, Kate.
I have emailed the Bristol RO asking for a quote for the Burchill/Jefferies and Drake/Jefferies marriage entries. Apparently they can only send copies if the entries are on fiche and not if they are on film, so I don't know what will happen if that turns out to be the case :(
What did Jane die from Merry? Was it old age as we guessed?
General decay :(
Old age sounds kinder, don't you think?
Goes with my 90 year old in the 1840s, decay of nature!
Or, one who was old age and various diseases or one who was even - Unknown.
Margaret in Burton
11-09-11, 19:01
Goes with my 90 year old in the 1840s, decay of nature!
Or, one who was old age and various diseases or one who was even - Unknown.
One of mine was "visitation of God"
I haven't got enough time today to investigate this (if there is anything that can be investigated!)
I ordered several PR entries from Bristol RO which relate back to posts in this thread. The good news is they found them all and the bad news is not one of the entries shows the condition of the bride or groom, which was vital for me to know!!
Anyway, here are the details (everyone is otp):
St Augustine the Less, Bristol
9th Feb 1802 James Jefferies and Elizabeth Sandell, banns. They both signed. Witnesses J Hancock and someone I can't read but might be 'Basting' (mark)
Parish of Temple, Bristol
21st May 1821 James Jefferies and Elizabeth Amesbury, banns. He signed, she made her mark. Witnesses William Ball and G...... Ball (might be Grace?)
St Augustine the Less, Bristol
20th Aug 1822 James Jeffereis and Elizabeth Redmore, banns. They both signed. Witnesses John Barrett and Ann Harris (serial witnesses)
St Augustine the Less, Bristol
25th July 1831 Thomas Drake and Elizabeth Jefferies, banns. They both signed. Witnesses John Barrett and John Hill (serial witnesses)
I think what I was hoping had happened was my James Jeffereis married Elizabeth Sandall and had several children including my ancestor Elizabeth Jefferies. Then I needed Elizabeth Sandall to die (I think between 1817 and 1821 from memory). Next James Jefferies (widower) needed to marry one of the other Elizabeths - Redmore or Amesbury). Then James needed to die in order for his widow to marry Thomas Drake.
All of the signatues for James Jefferies look the same lol (very small handwriting compared with everyone else). I suppose I could say the sig of Elizabeth Redmore and Elizabeth Jefferies (who married Thomas Drake) are very similar whilst Elizabeth Amesbury couldn't/didn't sign and her marriage was at a different church.....but none of that proves a thing :(
kiterunner
18-10-11, 10:08
There's a William Ball marrying a Grace Marks in Bristol in 1811, which doesn't really help.
I can't believe none of the marriages show marital status! As late as 1831 and at two different churches! That's really annoying.
I know - I couldn't either!
I'm adding this query to this thread to keep things together for me, but there's no particular need to read it back at all (:D)
I needed to know the age of Elizabeth Drake, the wife of Thomas Drake, tailor. Thomas Drake appears in Kingswood in the parish of Mangotsfield Gloucestershire in 1841 with his son and two likely step-children. Unfortunately, his wife Elizabeth isn't there and I presumed he was a widower.
However, I've just been looking at the transcribed South Glouc burial records of the Bristol and Avon FHS for the name Drake and there are only two entries:
7230 DRAKE , Elizabeth Abode: St Georges
Buried 22 Mar 1846 aged 51 Parish: Kingswood, Holy Trinity
7231 DRAKE , Tryphena Abode: Kingswood Hill
Buried 18 Jan 1838 aged 11m Parish: Kingswood, Holy Trinity
I did wonder if Elizabeth is Mrs Thomas Drake and if she is, where is she in 1841? I did also wonder if Tryphena is their daughter, but I can't see anything else for her except her death registration. If I was flush I would get the two death certs, but I wondered if anyone else could see anything to help.
For those who remember this thread (:rolleyes:), it would be good if the 1846 burial was for Thomas Drake's wife as we already knew he married an Elizabeth Jefferies and I didn't want his wife to be Elizabeth Jefferies bap 1803 in Mangotsfield as I'd thought that bap belonged to my 3xg-grandmother who married someone else entirely! I think Eliz aged 51 in 1846 is too old to steal 'my' baptism!!
kiterunner
30-01-15, 18:35
I can't find anything, sorry.
Thanks for looking, Kate.
I've spent the entire afternoon/evening constructing a very long post of a timeline for the people on this thread, in the hope of sorting some of them out.
I think I have made some progress, mainly managing to eliminate some entries we'd looked at before.
I was 30 seconds from posting the epic when I happened upon this:
18 Feb 1826 Bristol Mirror
Lately, at St James's church, Mr. Isaac Burchell, butcher and grazier, of Downend, eldest son of Mr. George Burchell, yeoman, to Sarah, daughter of Mr. James Jefferies, auctioneer etc of Staple-hill, Mangotsfield.
Isaac Burchill was my 3xg-grandfather and his details are spot on. The notice was put in the paper about 6 weeks after the wedding. Hopefully the only mistake is the bride's name as she was definitely Elizabeth, not Sarah!! Anyway, the good news is that I can now safely say Elizabeth's father was definitely James Jefferies and I now see I have found a death notice for Elizabeth's father in 1831 and possibly a burial for him too.
I'll post the timeline in my next post if you can bear it!
Here it is!
1746 Approx birth year of Mrs Jane Jefferies who died in Dec 1841 aged 95 at Downend, Mangotsfield, Glouc. Her death cert says she is the widow of William Jefferies, tailor. She died in the home of my 3xg-grandparents, Isaac Burchill and his wife, Elizabeth Burchill, nee Jefferies, b abt 1802/3 in Mangotsfield, Gloucestershire.
There are several marriages between a Wm Jefferies and a Jane from the mid-1760s onwards around Mangotsfield and Bristol.
This is a submitted entry, but it's a good fit if it's real:
WILLIAM JEFFERIES
Marriages: Spouse: JANE JEFFERIES
Marriage: 04 APR 1771 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
Possible baptisms for the children of Wm and Jane at Mangotsfield:
20 May 1771 James
20 or 28 May 1775 Amy
21 Aug 1781 William
27 July 1783 Ann
4 Feb 1787 Jane
23 Apr 1789 Elizabeth
There are at least two burials in the area for a William Jefferies of similar age to Jane:
Jefferies, William abode Mangotsfield buried 21 Sep 1828 age 82 Parish Siston
Jefferis, William Abode: Mangotsfield Buried 19 Mar 1821 aged 76 Parish: Siston
This second Wm, above, wrote a will (proved PCC 1 Jun 1821, occ gentleman). He is unlikely to be Jane's husband as he makes no mention of a living wife but names children James, Henry, Sarah, Mrs Ann Watts and Elizabeth Jefferies.(Ann Jefferies m Henry Watts 25 Jun 1800 St Augustine the Less, Bristol).
Next part: James Jefferies (my 4xg?)
Saint Augustine The Less, Bristol. 9 Feb 1802 James Jefferies married Elizabeth Sandill by banns. Condition not recorded. They both signed. Witnesses J Hancock and someone I can't read but might be 'Basting' (mark).
I think at least the first few children below belong to this couple:
Baptisms at Mangotsfield, parents James and Elizabeth:
20 Feb 1803 Elizabeth (my 3xg???)
25 Dec 1804 James
15 Feb 1807 William Sandall
26 May 1809 Joseph (I don't have access to pre-1813 burials, but I guess this child died before the next one was born)
23 Sep 1810 Joseph
4 Sep 1814 Henry aged 2 father's occ, tailor Abode "Common Mangotsfield"
4 Sep 1814 Charles occ and abode ditto
13 Apr 1823 Ann born 1817 occ and abode ditto
13 Apr 1823 Jane occ and abode ditto
I'm not saying all the above belong to the same couple for sure, but at this point there is a gap, so possibly different parents or at least not the same mother, for the next children (see further down!)
Before the next set of children there are two possible marriages for a James Jefferies, neither of which give condition for the bride or groom:
Parish of Temple, Bristol 21st May 1821 James Jefferies and Elizabeth Amesbury, banns. He signed, she made her mark. Witnesses William Ball and G...... Ball (might be Grace?)
St Augustine the Less, Bristol 20th Aug 1822 James Jefferies and Elizabeth Redmore, banns. They both signed. Witnesses John Barrett and Ann Harris (serial witnesses)
Could this burial be Elizabeth Jefferies nee Sandill, if her last child, bap in April 1823, above, was not newborn? Seems a bit unlikely though it would mean her husband could remarry to one of the brides above.
JEFFERIS , Elizabeth Abode: Mangotsfield Buried 23 Apr 1820 aged 43 Parish: Siston
There's also this burial:
JEFFERIES, James Abode: Mangotsfield Buried 29 Jan 1823 aged 32 Parish: Siston
This James is too young to be the husband of Elizabeth Sandill, but he did write a will which he signed 18 Jan 1823. In it he names his father as William Jefferies and his sister Ann Watts, so he is the son of William who died in 1821. He also names his wife as Elizabeth and whilst he mentions children there are none named, so I don't know if he actually had any. I suppose one of those two marriages listed above in 1821 or 1822 may belong to this James, but I've not been able to work out which.
Next we have some more children of a James Jefferies and his wife Elizabeth baptised at Mangotsfield....
1825 Francis (exact date not known) father's occ tailor, abode Staple Hill buried 4 Sep 1825 aged 6mths Abode: Mangotsfield Parish: Siston
10 Sep 1826 Mary Ann father's occ tailor, abode Staple Hill
30 Nov 1828 Francis ditto abode Bitton
Then there's this burial:
JEFFERIS , James Abode: Bitton Buried 27 Feb 1831 aged 52 Parish: Siston
I wondered if this was the husband of Elizabeth Sandill?
Next I found this in the newspaper....
North Devon Journal, 24 Feb 1831
On Sunday last (ie 20th Feb) at Kingswood, Bristol, Mr James Jefferies, Landsurveyor and Auctioneer, aged 47.
Are these two records for the same person? (are there two places called Kingswood? The Parish of Kingswood is miles from Bristol, but there's a Kingswood in Mangotsfield which is much nearer, but I don't know if it extends into Bitton?) re being a land surveyor and auctioneer: son James b 1804 is shown as a Land Surveyor in 1841 though he was a tailor at his children's baptisms.
If both entries are the same man I would think his age was closer to 52 than 47 (married 1802 so either 23 or 18 at marriage?) Whichever age is right, (if either!) it's pretty doubtful he was the son of Wm and Jane bap 1771 unless he lost masses of years whist married to a younger woman, perhaps?
It seems right that James who died in 1831 (the auctioneer) was father of the three children bap 1825-1828 in Mangotsfield, as the two surviving children turn up apparently with a step-father, Thomas Drake in 1841. There's this marriage (no conditions again)
St Augustine the Less, Bristol 25th July 1831 Thomas Drake and Elizabeth Jefferies, banns. They both signed. Witnesses John Barrett and John Hill (serial witnesses)
My other issue, apart from all those here already, is that James b 1804 and his wife, Lydia and their children seem to have vanished, possibly between 1848 and 1851. I can't see them on the census and it looks like he was arrested (and acquitted) for theft in 1848. (fmp won't let me back in again to pick up the exact details, but the events were in the right place and he was recorded as a clerk.) Did they emigrate perhaps?
kiterunner
01-02-15, 22:07
The Bristol CD has the William Jefferies / Jane Jefferies marriage at Mangotsfield 1 Apr 1771, both OTP, by licence.
Thanks Kate.
I'm in the process of sorting out getting some of the Bristol CDs (or more likely will get the direct downloads) - just have to get my car serviced first and I'll be booking that in later.
The biggest problem with the stuff I've put together is that I have Elizabeth Sandill dying before her last child was born! lol
Oh and not knowing who married who in 1821/22. I'm going to look at the papers for Redmore and Amesbury on the off chance there's a helpful marriage notice. I'll also get out the copies of the marriages to have a look at the sigs.
I'm going to look at the papers for Redmore and Amesbury
That got me nowhere!
kiterunner
02-02-15, 07:02
My other issue, apart from all those here already, is that James b 1804 and his wife, Lydia and their children seem to have vanished, possibly between 1848 and 1851. I can't see them on the census and it looks like he was arrested (and acquitted) for theft in 1848. (fmp won't let me back in again to pick up the exact details, but the events were in the right place and he was recorded as a clerk.) Did they emigrate perhaps?
What are their children's names and dates of birth, please?
All baptised at Mangotsfield:
Jane Elizabeth 1829
Jane 17 Oct 1830
Ellen 3 Jul 1842
Elizabeth 3 Jul 1842
Joseph 25 Apr 1847
Martha 25 Apr 1847
1841:
Soundwell, Mangotsfield
Name....Age....All Yes
James Jefferies 35 land surveyor
Lydia Jefferies 30
Jane Jefferies 10
William Jefferies 8
Robert Jefferies 4
Elizabeth Jefferies 1
There's a possible for Jane b 1830 on the 1851 census. I haven't been able to find another Jane of the same age bap around the same time. The Jane I saw was b Mangotsfield, a servant with a dau, also Jane, aged 1.
Name: James Jefferies
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 1829
Marriage Place: St.Augustine-The-Less, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Spouse: Lydia Bryant
FHL Film Number: 1596351
Reference ID: 2:3JS6MQB
I seem to recall Jane was with a family called Bryant, so they could have been relations. On the other hand, Bryant is another Smith-like name in that area!
Martha 25 Apr 1847
Martha was probably born in 1844 (reg)
I think I'm going to accept the first few children as belonging to my James and Elizabeth (Sandill), but I can't say what happened next at the moment - just that James died in 1831. I can't be sure of Elizabeth's death.
I did think perhaps I should buy the marriage cert for Francis Jefferies and his wife Jane (probably very soon before 1851) as knowing his father's occ might tell me something, but I can't see the marriage. :(
EDIT: Ah, it's in Cheshire (where she was from)
Marriages Mar 1850
Faulkner Ann Runcorn 19 190
Fletcher Susanna Runcorn 19 190
Hulse Jane Runcorn 19 190 <<<<<<<<<<<
Jefferies Francis Runcorn 19 190 <<<<<<<
Price Thomas Runcorn 19 190
Wilkinson Joseph Runcorn 19 190
Oooh another lead!!
I was looking for William Sandill Jefferies (b 1807) and found him with his family in 1841 in Mangotsfield and look at the surname of the head of house!
Sarah Amsbury 75
William Jefferies 30
Jemima Jefferies 35
Eliza Jefferies 12
Thomas Jefferies 10
Joseph Jefferies 8
Emma Jefferies 6
Jemima Jefferies 4
Henry Jefferies 3
and William is a tailor!
Name: Sarah Amesbury
Burial Date: 2 Mar 1848
Burial Place: Mangotsfield, St James, Gloucestershire, England
Burial Age: 85
It would seem she is the widow of Richard Amesbury and amongst others they had a dau Betsey in 1800. She could possibly be the Elizabeth Amesbury who married one of the James Jefferies in 1821.
If it was the right James Jefferies (:D) then Sarah would be step-grandmother to William Jefferies who was living with her in 1841.
Time to get out the copies of the marriage entries........ *delves*
kiterunner
02-02-15, 12:53
The Francis Jefferies / Jane Hulse marriage in 1850 is listed on Cheshire BMD at Runcorn, All Saints.
kiterunner
02-02-15, 12:57
And the parish register entry for Francis Jefferies' marriage is on FMP, showing his father to be James Jeffries, Auctioner.
Thanks Kate.
I just looked at the various sigs on the marriage copies I have, but they are all pretty much the same!
The only thing is, as I mentioned before, if Elizabeth Amesbury married James Jefferies and ten years later married Thomas Drake, she went from making her mark to signing her name, but I know that can happen.
I need another lead........
And the parish register entry for Francis Jefferies' marriage is on FMP, showing his father to be James Jeffries, Auctioner.
Oh great!!
Thanks. Going to take a look at that.....
Lovely!!
I just had a funny five minutes, whilst I noticed Francis didn't say his father was deceased and then realised Francis is young enough to be the son of the younger James (the one who was married to Lydia and was also a land surveyor which might or might not also mean he was an auctioneer!) but luckily I don't see how that can work if Francis' mother was married to Thomas Drake at the same time as James jr was married to Lydia Bryant. (of course we don't KNOW Francis and his sister, Mary Ann were step children in the Drake household, because it was the 1841 census, but I'm sticking with that for now.)
Kate, would you mind dreadfully checking this baptism on your CD (I have booked my car in for next Monday! :D)
13 Apr 1823 Jane parents James and Elizabeth Jefferies father's occ tailor, abode Mangotsfield Common
to see if, firstly, the child's name is Jane as I have it as James on one record and Jane on another!) and secondly, if there is anything to give the age of the child (there was on some of the others).
kiterunner
02-02-15, 13:31
Kate, would you mind dreadfully checking this baptism on your CD (I have booked my car in for next Monday! :D)
13 Apr 1823 Jane parents James and Elizabeth Jefferies father's occ tailor, abode Mangotsfield Common
to see if, firstly, the child's name is Jane as I have it as James on one record and Jane on another!) and secondly, if there is anything to give the age of the child (there was on some of the others).
It is Jane on the CD but it is only a transcription so can't be sure it's correct. No date of birth shown for Jane although it does show one for Anne, baptised on the same day, so it looks likely that Jane was a baby at the time.
Ok, that's what I though you would say!
I've just realised - it's obvious really - Jane was the child of the new wife, but same father so two children bap together!! New wife would be either Eliz Amesbury or Redmore and Eliz Sandill died in 1820.
Why is it that no single event splits those two marriages?
Sorry, I forgot to say thank you :o
kiterunner
02-02-15, 13:51
You're welcome! Yes, I was thinking that she might be the daughter of the second Elizabeth.
I feel much happier about that part now.
You should see some of the ancestry trees on this family - some of the worst ever! Can't say I'm surprised really!
My gut feeling is James' second marriage was to Elizabeth An(e)sbury. Looking at the census, of all the Amesburys in Gloucestershire the biggest % are in Mangotsfield and James had to manage to meet her in the first place (though I suppose his job(s) could have meant he wasn't completely bound to one place). Then there's that Sarah Amesbury living with James' son too.
There are a few trees with the children of Richard Amesbury and Sarah Strange on Ancestry. Those who have included more than one child have the usual smattering of some with families and some with just a baptism. I wanted their dau Betsey (b 1800) to be the Elizabeth who married James and then Thomas Drake, but most trees have her dying circa 1895, so very old, but with no details in between. A little odd?
Actually, that makes no sense when I consider the James who died in 1823 aged 32 was also married to Elizabeth and also lived in Mangotsfield! I suppose he could have been married longer than a year or two though.
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.