A bit of deciphering please

[maggie_4_7]

Can anyone tell what this word is I assume it's a street or place in Shoreditch.

324

...of the W...

The people below the Hortons also live there.

Thank you, I might not reply for a bit because I need to log off to do something.

[Sue from Southend]

I'd say that it's WH - short for Workhouse.

[Olde Crone]

It looks like WH to me, which might be the workhouse?

OC

[maggie_4_7]

oooh okay didn't think of that!

Thanks.

Edit to say: Of course now I see it WH I am stupid sometimes, well a lot of the time actualyl :)

[maggie_4_7]

I'm wondering what Workhouse now, I have this family living around Shoreditch, Bishopsgate, London Wall.

That baptism was St Leonard's Shoreditch - I was trying to track some siblings for William Horton whose baptism that is and I think I have found two but it hangs on addresses really.

I found his mother's burial though.

[Merry]

I would have expected the workhouse to be in the same parishh as the burials. I don't know if there was one though?!

[maggie_4_7]

Yep there was a Shoreditch Workhouse but that was a bit aways up Kingsland Road.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Shoreditch/

Hoxton had one too which is closer to St Leonards but I think there was one in Bishopsgate too.

I wish it had named the workhouse!

[maggie_4_7]

I must admit to being unaware of James Parkinson's time at Shoreditch Workhouse considering I did read up on him quite a bit because my mother had Parkinson's Disease for many years.

"The workhouse incorporated two sick wards. In 1813, James Parkinson was appointed as parish surgeon, apothecary and man-midwife, Amongst other improvements to the medical facilities, Parkinson established a separate fever block in the workhouse, the first in London, for the segregation of infectious patients, particularly those suffering from cholera. In 1817 he published an "Essay on the Shaking Palsy" in which he described the condition we now call Parkinson's Disease."

Well I have learnt something new today.

[Olde Crone]

Maggie

I think in those days you had to go to your parish workhouse, regardless of how far away it was. Another parish wouldn't pay for you to go to theirs.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

But that area was so close in proximity to parish boundaries, I'm not sure anyone knew where anyone would really belong to be honest.

You can spit from Bishopsgate in the City of London to St Leonard's Church and Hoxton Workhouse was a stones throw away. I don't know how anyone would know where anyone came from or should be in those days in that area.

So I don't think it was as strict as the rural areas to be honest.

It's a bit like today in London everyone turns up and everyone is catered for irrespective of where they really come from and I suspect in 1795 it was probably a bit like that here then too.

How would they know where they belonged or came from it was overcrowded and transient at the very least it was a very overcrowded area full of people from far flung places just trying to earn a crust. If they spoke English it was a plus I don't think they would have had time to differentiate between Parishes in this area it would have been insurmountable in 1795.

I have people born in the City of London which is beyond Shoreditch parish being baptised at St Leonard's, I have people marrying in the City of London but living in Aldgate I don't think it was as clear cut in London when it came to parishes people could hide and transfer and be someone else and I think the churches were just happy that people were being baptised and getting married.

So not sure how they presented themselves at Workhouses and how they proved which parish they belonged to.

[Merry]

I was thinking more along the lines of, if you died in the workhouse and had to have your burial paid for, then the powers-that-be would only expect to pay for burials of those who died in "their" parish workhouse.

[maggie_4_7]

I was thinking more along the lines of, if you died in the workhouse and had to have your burial paid for, then the powers-that-be would only expect to pay for burials of those who died in "their" parish workhouse.

Yes but it wouldn't mean you were born there or even married there or had your children there I think to be honest.

How would they know when you entered the WorkHouse you were of that parish then? What would be the criteria?

I think just living there to be honest, in close proximity would be enough, I expect that more people in that area of London or any area of London wouldn't have been born there at that time just like now as it happens.

I expect having seen the criteria for St Matthews Bethnal Green it didn't matter they buried, married, baptised anyone that presented themselves in the church.

Only requirement in most circumstances were the basics names of parents and child if you're lucky you'll have the birthdate if you're really lucky you'll have father's occupation and address and I expect in 1795 it was hit and miss.

Not too clear cut in that area unfortunately which is a problem to me and I suspect loads of people.

[Olde Crone]

As far as I know, there was no automatic right of entry to a workhouse, you had to present yourself to the relieving officer who would give you a ticket. I suppose a lot depended on how jobsworthy he was, as to whether you would have to prove your right of settlement in the parish and therefore your right to parish relief including entering the workhouse.

OC

[Sue at the seaside]

I'm not convinced this is of any use, but I have someone who died in Shoreditch WH and was buried at St Mary Haggerston.

[maggie_4_7]

I'm not convinced this is of any use, but I have someone who died in Shoreditch WH and was buried at St Mary Haggerston.

It's very close.

Hoxton, Shoreditch, Haggerston are practically the same place to be honest.

[Merry]

Yes but it wouldn't mean you were born there or even married there or had your children there I think to be honest.

How would they know when you entered the WorkHouse you were of that parish then? What would be the criteria?

I think just living there to be honest, in close proximity would be enough, I expect that more people in that area of London or any area of London wouldn't have been born there at that time just like now as it happens.

I expect having seen the criteria for St Matthews Bethnal Green it didn't matter they buried, married, baptised anyone that presented themselves in the church.

Only requirement in most circumstances were the basics names of parents and child if you're lucky you'll have the birthdate if you're really lucky you'll have father's occupation and address and I expect in 1795 it was hit and miss.

Not too clear cut in that area unfortunately which is a problem to me and I suspect loads of people.

I am very confused! I thought you were asking "if a person was buried in parish X and they were "from the WH" then which WH would they be from?" and I said they should have died in a WH in the same parish as they were buried. (as you say though maybe not if in London?). I wasn't thinking at all of where they were born or anything.

OH's ancestors, born in Huntingdonshire, died in various London workhouses and were always buried in the churchyard associated with the particular WH.

[maggie_4_7]

Yes sorry to confuse you.

The image was of a baptism and I was wondering which workhouse they were in when the child was born bearing in mind that there were a few in close proximity to St Leonard's Church and that this family lived in Shoreditch and the City of London at various times. I was pontificating that it wouldn't be so easy to work out which one based on the fact that it would have been difficult to prove which parish they belonged to because it was so densely populated and people were very transient, parishes close together and some not from London at all.

[Merry]

The image was of a baptism

Ah.......*looks sheepish* .......I thought it was a burial :o *slinks away quietly*

[Katarzyna]

My 3 x Gt Grandfather died in Shoreditch Workhouse in Kingsland Road 1865 and his death cert gives Sub-district Haggerstone West.

Does this mean he might have been buried in St Mary Haggerston rather than St Leonards - like Sues relative in post 14?

[maggie_4_7]

My 3 x Gt Grandfather died in Shoreditch Workhouse in Kingsland Road 1865 and his death cert gives Sub-district Haggerstone West.

Does this mean he might have been buried in St Mary Haggerston rather than St Leonards - like Sues relative in post 14?

Yes I have two at St Mary Haggerton, the Church and grounds no longer exist.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sarflondondunc/4665256589

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/Shoreditch/outline.htm

It used to be behind my secondary school when it existed.

[Katarzyna]

Hitler had a lot to answer for :(

[maggie_4_7]

Sorry I didn't digest what you said but as you can see by that list there were quite a few churches in that area and yes it was very likely that your ancestor was buried at St Mary's it seemed to be favourite for burials in that area for some reason perhaps because it had more land than others. As I said I have a few buried there.

I have found St Leonard's Church being favourite for baptisms though.

I know out of the bottom part of the list from this site:-

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/Shoreditch/outline.htm

11 St Chad, Nichols Square, Haggerston
12 St Mary, Brunswick Street, Haggerston
13 St Augustine, York Street, Haggerston
14 St Stephen, Goldsmith Row, Haggerston
15 St Mark, Old Street Road, Shoreditch
16 St Peter, Hoxton Square, Hoxton
17 St Michael, St Mark Street, Shoreditch
18 St Leonard, Shoreditch
19 Holy Trinity, Old Nichol Street, Shoreditch
20 St James, Curtain Road, Shoreditch
21 St Agatha, Finsbury Avenue, E.C.

St Chad and St Leonard (both still a working church) and St Augustine (now flats) are the only three left not sure about St Agatha or any out of 1-10 because I haven't looked/taken a rekkie but I bet only one or two of them exist as well.

A lot were reduced to rubble in WW2 but a lot were just decommissioned/deconsecrated and either knocked down or turned into flats.

I always have wondered about the burial grounds of St Mary because part of it is a playground now and I think my old secondary school tennis courts must be on part of it too. Wondered if they disinterred the bodies or just built over!!!!

[Sue from Southend]

A lot of those Churches were "new build" - ie built between 1820 -1860 so it might be worth checking to see what churches were built at the time of our baptisms/burials (I have the same problem...!) to narrow down the options. If you click on one of the churches on Maggie's list in the website it gives you dates of consecration and demolition etc

Of to check some of my mysteries!!