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Shazza34
22-08-11, 13:50
HELP !!!
I have MARY BIRTLES age 7 (born 1904) BELPER DERBYS on 1911 census but on her death certificate I have her DOB 22 Oct 1903 STOURBRIDGE WEST MIDLANDS.
I'm trying to help someone out and can't find a GRO birth ref anywhere. We have tried Ancestry and FreeBMD. Is there anywhere else we can try or can anyone else find her for us please ???
kiterunner
22-08-11, 13:53
The 1911 census doesn't actually state year of birth, only age at last birthday, and if she was born Oct 1903 she would indeed be 7 years old on the 1911 census. For some reason sites such as the 1911 census site, ancestry, etc, calculate year of birth by subtracting age from census year, and since the UK censuses were carried out in the first half of the year, this is most often incorrect. I'll have a look for her birth now.
Shazza34
22-08-11, 14:03
Thank you Kiterunner.
I was quoting from the 1911 transciption on Find My Past. I know its the right Mary because of the other people on the census.
Rumour has it that she tore up her original cert because she was born in a workhouse. We'd love to know if its fact or fiction but first we need a cert !!!
kiterunner
22-08-11, 14:09
Do you know the full address they're living at in 1911 so I can look at the image, please?
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 14:35
1911 Census
BIRTLES, Mary
STOURBRIDGE, Worcestershire
Reference RG14PN17480 RG78PN1069 RD373 SD2 ED1 SN100

BIRTLES, Mary Illegitimate Child Of Housekeeper Daughter F 7 1904 School Belper Derbys

There are 2 other illegitimate children.
MargaretMarch
22-08-11, 14:36
Looking at ancestry BMD index I can't see a Mary Birtles born in Derbyshire from between 1895 and 1905.
Margaret
Shazza34
22-08-11, 14:38
Address is 23 Coventry Street Stourbridge Worcestershire

(National Archive Ref RG14PN17480 RG78PN1069 RD373 SD2 ED1 SN100)
kiterunner
22-08-11, 14:40
I'd just managed to find it using the info from another of your threads, Shazza! Still can't find the birth reg, though.
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 14:40
One of the illegitimate children is Edward Harris Birtles.

The employer is Joseph Harris.
Mmm, is he the father of this child?
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 14:44
I can't find her birth either.
kiterunner
22-08-11, 14:49
I wonder if she was registered in her father's surname, whatever that was. I think it's more likely that she was born in Belper than in Stourbridge since the place of birth on her death certificate would just be from the knowledge of whoever registered her death, but that doesn't really help if we don't know what surname to look for! I tried the surname Arnfield as well but no luck with that either.
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 14:51
I found this one:

Civil Registration event: Birth
Name: HARRIS, Mary Elizabeth
Registration District: Belper
County: Derbyshire
Year of Registration: 1903
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume No: 7B

Did she have a middle name?
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 14:52
This is the right quarter from your information.
kiterunner
22-08-11, 14:55
Findmypast has that birth listed as being in Ripley, which was in the Belper district, and there is a Mary E Harris born Ripley age 7 living in Belper district on the 1911 census. :(
Shazza34
22-08-11, 14:56
One of the illegitimate children is Edward Harris Birtles.

The employer is Joseph Harris.
Mmm, is he the father of this child?

Thats our thought too !!! But its Mary's birth we want cause we've had contact from one of her chidren from her 2nd marriage hence the story of her ripping up her cert.
kiterunner
22-08-11, 14:59
Do either of Mary's marriage certificates give her father's name, Shazza?
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 15:00
Oh, shucks.

Where does it say Ripley, Kate? I can't see that.
Shazza34
22-08-11, 15:02
I found this one:

Civil Registration event: Birth
Name: HARRIS, Mary Elizabeth
Registration District: Belper
County: Derbyshire
Year of Registration: 1903
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume No: 7B

Did she have a middle name?

Elizabeth
Thanks but that can't be the birth cause her mother was with Arnfield before moving to Stourbridge to become housekeeper to Joseph Harris.
Allan Spencer Arnfield is my husbands g/father so we know we've got the right family on the census even though he's down as lodger.
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 15:04
You could check with Belper workhouse records:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Belper/

Derbyshire Record Office, New Street, Matlock, Derbyshire. Holdings include: Guardians' minute books (1837-1930); Admissions and discharges (1840-50, 1853-1911); Births (1840-1957); Deaths (1840-1914); Creed registers (1869-93); etc.
kiterunner
22-08-11, 15:10
Oh, shucks.

Where does it say Ripley, Kate? I can't see that.

If you look in the so-called Parish Baptisms on findmypast, it includes Derbyshire's civil registration birth index. (Derbyshire civil registration marriages and deaths are also on the site listed under "parish" whatever.)
Shazza34
22-08-11, 15:11
Do either of Mary's marriage certificates give her father's name, Shazza?

Trying to contact someone who may have copies of her marriage certs but she's not answering her phone at the moment ! I will post when i know the answers !
ElizabethHerts
22-08-11, 15:21
If you look in the so-called Parish Baptisms on findmypast, it includes Derbyshire's civil registration birth index. (Derbyshire civil registration marriages and deaths are also on the site listed under "parish" whatever.)

Thanks, Kate.
MargaretMarch
22-08-11, 16:02
I also looked for her mother Sarah Elizabeth Birtles and couldn't find her in 1901 or in any other census?!?

I would think that Mary has a different father to the other two and that they are from Harris the householder.
Margaret
kiterunner
22-08-11, 16:12
Sarah's age has been mistranscribed from the 1911 census, Margaret; she should be 38 not 28. This thread has details of the 1901 census:

http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=1440
MargaretMarch
22-08-11, 16:20
Thanks Kiterunner I can see now that this is quite a puzzle.
Margaret
Shazza34
22-08-11, 17:31
Trying to contact someone who may have copies of her marriage certs but she's not answering her phone at the moment ! I will post when i know the answers !

Have now emailed so waiting for reply. If she doesn't have 2nd marriage cert i shall order it from GRO
Shazza34
24-08-11, 13:23
UPDATE
It now seems from info recived from Derbyshire records office by Mary's daughter, that the family entered the workhouse on the day of Mary's birth under a different surname !!! Sarah claimed to have been deserted by her husband William Spencer !!! (The name Spencer has been given to various members of the family as a middle name since !!!)
A birth cert is now on its way to Mary's daughter in the name Mary Spencer.
I wait to see what it says.
Thank you to all who hve helped us look and I'll let you know if this part of the mystery ever gets solved.
kiterunner
24-08-11, 15:39
I seem to remember I kept seeing a Spencer and thinking it was a possible, but I forgot about Allan Spencer Arnfield having it as a middle name so I didn't think there was any special reason for it to be likely. There is a Mary Spencer baptised 9 Dec 1903 at Belper, parents William and Sarah, so hopefully that will be the right one.
Shazza34
24-08-11, 15:42
I seem to remember I kept seeing a Spencer and thinking it was a possible, but I forgot about Allan Spencer Arnfield having it as a middle name. There is a Mary Spencer baptised 9 Dec 1903 at Belper, parents William and Sarah, so hopefully that will be the right one.

That sounds a possible. Ill pass it on. Thank you

PS Where did you find that ???