View Full Version : Why Can't I Find John Wesley?
I have spent many, many hours trying to locate where my great grandfather John Wesley BOYLE b.1880 in Runcorn was in 1911, but cannot trace him on any of the census searches I have done. I also cannot trace his death either which I believe would be between 1914 (when my grandfather was born) and 1938 (when his wife Adelaide re married). Can anyone assist me with trying to trace him or point me in some direction?
The details I have for him are:
John Wesley BOYLE
Birth: 29 Jul 1880, Runcorn
Baptism Date: 02 Sep 1880, Halton Rd Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Runcorn
Father's Name: Joseph Wilson BOYLE
Mother's Name: Margaret BOYLE
1881 Census – 157 Cambridge Street, Runcorn, 8m
1891 Census – 1 Cross Street, Runcorn, 10
Marriage 15 September 1880 – Garston, Lancashire, Bride: Adelaide Elizabeth SACHT, aged 19, father Charles (Carl) Frederick SACHT, Groom: John Wesley BOYLE, aged 20, father Joseph Wilson BOYLE
1901 Census – 23 Lord Street Garston, 20 - with Adelaide aged 20
1911 Census – Only Adelaide and 3 of the surviving children at that stage recorded.
The plus side is that I have succeeded in tracing just about all (I think) of his immediate family plus descendants.:D
kiterunner
14-08-11, 18:51
What was his occupation, Wendy?
Sorry forgot that - Apprentice Ship (?W) Carpenter not too clear on the census page but on a reference for Adelaide it says Shipwrights Carpenter
kiterunner
14-08-11, 19:00
Oh, I see that on his marriage certificate he is a Ship's Carpenter, so I wonder if he was at sea in 1911 and if his death could be the John W Boyle death in 1916 that is listed on Findmypast as "at sea" in the "British nationals died overseas 1818-2005".
I think the overseas death index is free to view on Family Relatives, so I'll see if there is any info on there.
kiterunner
14-08-11, 19:05
Okay, found it in the index and it says
Marine Deaths for the year 1916
Boyle, John W age 27 name of vessel HMS Attentive III page 346.
The age is way out for your John, and your John wasn't in the Royal Navy, was he, so I guess it's not him.
As far as I know he was not in the Royal Navy - most of the the Boyles did stints as seaman but in the Merchant Navy, I have tried looking at a few of the "overseas and military death records" but so far have not been successful.
Olde Crone
14-08-11, 19:11
What about this one? Age is spot on.
John W Boyle June 1932 age 52 Abergavenny 11a 60.
OC
A strong possibility and I agree the ages match perfectly, and I have seen it but and please excuse my ignorance, is Abergavenny not a distance from the Liverpool area (I have to google as I do not the U.K too well), although I suppose he could have been working away also; my mom has said that the only thing my grandfather (born 1914) said about his dad was that he died when he was very young he never gave any other details. So for now I'll keep the above as tentative. Thanks!
Olde Crone
14-08-11, 19:46
Yes, Abergavenny is miles away from Liverpool but he could have been visiting/working etc or, given what your Grandad said, maybe he left his family to pursue other interests.
OC
That has crossed my mind;(...........
Olde Crone
14-08-11, 20:09
Wendy, do you have your grandfather's birth cert? I cannot pick him out in the indexes for 1914.
OC
He was only registered 1915, my mom has his marriage cert which confirmed his parents and date of birth.
Olde Crone
14-08-11, 20:24
OK, I've found it in 1915.
I have a suspicious mind, you see, and if your GF was told his father had died when he (GF) was very young, that to me suggests John Wesley was not around during his childhood. I would want his birth certificate because what anyone SAYS on their marriage cert might be just what they had been told all their life.
I'm probably making too much of this really and casting aspersions where I shouldn't!
OC
LOL we joked about this a couple of weeks back...........I'll check with her (my mom)tomorrow if it is amongst the certs she has, I cannot remember as she has a number of them mostly on her mom's side though..........mom is coming over next week so we can scan all documents that she has - at least it will make for easier access (and help the memory). Failing this, will request a copy of my grandfathers birth certificate.
Spoke to my mom - she has my grandfathers birth certificate stating John Wesley as father.
BUT, I have had a relook at my older research and have picked up that the Lanchasire BMD has:
1 x John W Boyle b.1914 Sub-District Wavetree and
1 x John W Boyle b.1915 Sub-District Wavetree
On checking the Free BMD indexes however, this shows the 1914 birth as District Lambeth, with mothers maiden name as Pointing and the 1915 as W. Derby maiden name Sacht. :confused:
I will check the actual number on my GF birth certificate when mom comes over this weekend but is it possible he was registered twice? and could the Lambeth district entry on Free BMD explain the John W death in 1932?
kiterunner
15-08-11, 19:17
Spoke to my mom - she has my grandfathers birth certificate stating John Wesley as father.
BUT, I have had a relook at my older research and have picked up that the Lanchasire BMD has:
1 x John W Boyle b.1914 Sub-District Wavetree and
1 x John W Boyle b.1915 Sub-District Wavetree
On checking the Free BMD indexes however, this shows the 1914 birth as District Lambeth, with mothers maiden name as Pointing and the 1915 as W. Derby maiden name Sacht. :confused:
I will check the actual number on my GF birth certificate when mom comes over this weekend but is it possible he was registered twice? and could the Lambeth district entry on Free BMD explain the John W death in 1932?
Lambeth is not included in Lancashire BMD as it is in London. John William Boyle born 8 Feb 1914 died in Lambeth in 1981. The John W Boyle who died in 1932 was age 52 so we're looking at a previous generation there, aren't we? :confused:
As for why there are two John W Boyle births on Lancashire BMD, one in 1914 and one in 1915, both Liverpool / Wavertree, with different references but apparently with only one matching entry on the GRO index, I'm not sure. I wonder if they've (accidentally?) indexed the same entry twice because he was born in 1914 but the birth was registered in 1915, or if he was actually re-registered. I suppose the only way to find out would be to ask the Liverpool Register Office.
:o Yes 1832 is the previous John Wesley generation.
:eek: Next question and thanks for the patience so far, how would I "ask" whether it was an error or would I have to request both documents (i.e. if the one mom has does not have a reference on it that ties up to that on the Lancashire BMD)?
Olde Crone
15-08-11, 21:18
What is the date of birth of the 1914/15 JW please and the date of registration on the certificate?
There may have been a previous John W born and died in 1914 and the 1915 was named the same.
EDIT - As Kate remarked above, the Lambeth JW is nothing to do with yours. His parents appear to be William Boyle and Harriet Pointing.
I would email Liverpool RO and ask if the two certs are for the same person - explain that you already have a certificate dated XXXX and you are just wondering about the other one. You will need the Liverpool ref numbers which you can get from the Lancsbmd site.
OC
What is the date of birth of the 1914/15 JW please and the date of registration on the certificate?
And when was your certificate copy actually issued?
kiterunner
15-08-11, 21:51
:eek: Next question and thanks for the patience so far, how would I "ask" whether it was an error or would I have to request both documents (i.e. if the one mom has does not have a reference on it that ties up to that on the Lancashire BMD)?
Hopefully someone on here has experience of contacting register offices to ask about this kind of situation. I would hope that if you phone / email or write to them explaining the problem they would be able to tell you whether there are two different certificates or just one. I don't think the certificate will have the reference numbers on it.
What is the date of birth of the 1914/15 JW please and the date of registration on the certificate?
There may have been a previous John W born and died in 1914 and the 1915 was named the same.
OC
There's only one John W Boyle birth in Lancashire in 1914-5 on the GRO indexes, though, and no death.
Olde Crone
15-08-11, 21:56
Yes I realise there is only one on the GRO indexes but my vast (lol) experience of dealing with Lancashire Register Offices has taught me that they were somewhat slapdash about their GRO returns and I have many (well, six) certificates issued by various Lancashire ROs which do not appear in the GRO indexes, so it would be no surprise to me if they had missed this one as well!
I agree though, it is quite likely to be the same person and the 1915 entry is an amendment of some sort, which might be rather interesting to read.
OC
I agree though, it is quite likely to be the same person and the 1915 entry is an amendment of some sort, which might be rather interesting to read.
OC
That's why I asked what date the copy Wendy has was issued. If it was the actual original then it might not have any future amendment on it.
garstonite
16-08-11, 09:48
Can I maybe throw a little light on this possible 1914 /1915 registratrion...I haven`t looked yet...so it will need checking...
re John Boyle born to John Boyle and Adelaide Elizabeth SACHT....SCHACHT is a very common German name , and on a few occassions the father Carl Freidrich Sacht was transcribed as SCHACHT...this annoyed him cos Carl was from Heligoland - which was British owned ...so he was offended to be named SCHACHT which was German....maybe , the 1914 record had mothers maiden name as SCHACHT and when Carl came home ( he was a mariner ) he seen it and had it changed....
for those who don`t know - my gg grandfather William Edward Oakes married Sophia Sacht....Adelaides sister ....so Wendy and I have the same ggg grandparents who were
Carl Freidrich Sacht and Mary Ellen Jones who married in St Peter ,Liverpool 1877 ...Mary Ellen Jones was born in Garston.........sadly , my father died 5 years ago aged 80 ...he spoke fondly of his nan Sophia Sacht and his Aunty Adelaide....HE would have been able to tell us when John Boyle died....and 1932 Abergavenny seems acceptable to me because Garston docks /ships went to Abergavenny regularly for copper which supplied Garston Copper Works ..........allan
added...on my tree I have John Boyle as born 1915....hope this may explain the 2 registrations 1914/15
Unfortunately have to wait for the weekend to see what my mom has i.e. copy or original BC....Will then try and contact the Lancashire Register Offices and see what reply I receive.
What about this one? Age is spot on.
John W Boyle June 1932 age 52 Abergavenny 11a 60.
OC
While patiently waiting for tomorrow to arrive to check the actual cert's regarding my grandfather, I've been going over all records I have so far on the Boyle's and found the possible reason for not paying too much attention with regards the above John Wesley b Runcorn 1880 - the reason was that when my grandfather's brother Joseph WH married in 1933 (exctract from parish record below), the records show groom's father as John Wesley, Carpenter and not John Wesley, Deceased as I have seen on numerous previous records - I took it that as a standard records reflected deceased if the father was no longer alive or have I made an incorrect assumption?
Marriage: 2 Sep 1933 St Thomas, Seaforth, Lancashire, England
Joseph,Henry,Wilson Boyle - 27 Groundsman Bachelor of 41 Gladeville Road, Aigburth
Jessie May Mc Culloch - 36 Spinster of 21 Schubert Street, Seaforth
Groom's Father: John Wesley Boyle, Carpenter
Bride's Father: John Mc Culloch, Baker
Witness: W. A. Davies; R. G. Jackson; Elizabeth Nicholls
Married by Banns by: G. Caldwell
Register: Marriages 1926 - 1939, Page 143, Entry 286
Source: LDS Film 1546066
kiterunner
19-08-11, 19:01
The fact that it doesn't say "deceased" doesn't necessarily mean that he was still alive, Wendy.
That's why I asked what date the copy Wendy has was issued. If it was the actual original then it might not have any future amendment on it.
The Certificate my mom has is as follows:
Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth
Registration District: West Derby
1915. Birth in the Sub-District of Wavetree in the County of Liverpool C.B
No.: 65
When and Where Born: Twenty Fourth November 1914, 41 Gladeville Road Garston
Name, if any: John Wesley
Sex: Boy
Name and Surname of Father: John Wesley Boyle
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Adelaide Elizabeth Boyle formerly Sacht
Rank or Profession of Father: Ship’s Carpenter/Journeyman
Signature, Description and Residence of Informant: A.E. Boyle, 41 Gladeville Road Aigburth
When Registered: Eleventh January 1915
Certified a true copy of the Entry No. 65 in the Register Book of Births No. 122
Witnessed: 17 February 1943
There are no additional notes
kiterunner
20-08-11, 17:49
I reckon the two entries on Lancashire BMD are probably just a mistake due to the birth being registered in the year after it took place, then. I think the local BMD sites usually index by the year the event took place rather than the year of registration unlike the GRO whose index (normally) goes by when it was registered.
garstonite
20-08-11, 17:52
Gladeville road ....this is what the house would look like Wendy
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-30362674.html/svr/2709;jsessionid=468CC9728FFABF14C74195BB1D3B593E
better class house than in Garston at the time
allan
Thanks Allan...nice to have some sort of image in the back of the mind
Olde Crone
20-08-11, 18:32
It was a late registration - 6 days late.
OC
Sent a query with regards a duplication in the 1914/1915 registerations on the Lancashire BMD for John W Boyle - was actually suprised to get a response but, thanks to the kind person (and this is sincere NOT sarcatsic) on the other side of the mail, was advised as follows:
"This is probably a re-registration, which usually occurs when there is some change of details subsequent to the original registration. Most commonly this is the case when a child's parents are not married at the time of the birth but subsequently marry and re-register the birth, but it can occur when an error is subsequently discovered.
LancashireBMD will index such births under both the original and re-registered register entries."
I will therefore as in my response to the person who took the effort (again greatly appreciated) to reply to my mail, request the 1914 cert. and see what/if any anomaly exists..................
Olde Crone
23-08-11, 20:17
Wendy
I don't think you will get the 1914 certificate if the 1915 is an amendment - the amendment cancels the original. Still worth a try, though, because it may be something else. The fact that the 1915 registration was six days late does point to that one being an amendment, in my opinion
Another thought - if John Wesley disappeared from his family's life, they might not know whether he was dead or alive when his son got married. However, I've seen many a marriage certificate which doesn't reflect whether the father is alive or dead anyway. A lot depends on whether the question was asked or not
Glad you got a reply from the RO - I have always found them very helpful.
OC
OC on my grandfather's marriage cert. (1942) it shows the John W Boyle (his father) as deceased and Adelaide (his mother remarried 1938). I have a a feeling that there may actually be something in the birth registrations so I will request a copy of the 1914 registration (once I figure out how to get a so called copy of the original - was dissapointed in the "extract" from GRO on the father). and let's see.................
Received a cert but unfortunately the 1915 one, I queried this and explained why I had wanted the 1914 one...........anyway the person on the other end has now advised that it is in fact 2 different John W. Boyle's and the 1915 registration is therefore my grandfather's - no amendments!
Interesting.
I wonder what excuse they would make about only one registration appearing on the GRO index?
I did mention that but did not get an answer...
Olde Crone
20-09-11, 18:22
See my post 22! the GRO will never admit that they do not have a copy of a certificate which appears in local records - I have six certs which do not appear on the GRO indexes and the first time I found one I actually sent a copy of the certificate to thew GRO and asked if they could now trace THEIR copy - I never got a reply.
OC
Margaret in Burton
20-09-11, 18:24
See my post 22! the GRO will never admit that they do not have a copy of a certificate which appears in local records - I have six certs which do not appear on the GRO indexes and the first time I found one I actually sent a copy of the certificate to thew GRO and asked if they could now trace THEIR copy - I never got a reply.
OC
I have two death certs that don't appear in the GRO index. Only found them via the burial records in the parish register and then contacted the local office.
There are also, of course entries which shouldn't appear.
Not only the famous frauds ( a neat way of registrars increasing their earnings) but also entries where the book was made up, but the couple cried off at the last minute.
Received the 1932 Death Cert today, appears to be the correct John Wesley, Occupation is listed as Ship's Carpenter. Died 1 June 1932, Blaenavon, County of Monmouth, Abergavenny - Bronchial Pneumonia. Nothing else that gives any clues as to why he was there and the "informant" is only listed as "Occupier, present at the death"
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