View Full Version : Sarah Welford/Wilford (MMMMMM)
Name - "official" name and what they were known as
Sarah - possibly Welford, or Wilford, but not entirely sure
Date and place of birth
about 1798, possibly in Naseby Northamptonshire
Names of parents
possibly Charles Wilford and Martha Allen
Date and place of baptism - if applicable
not known - allowing that her first child was born in 1820, probably before 1800
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any
]married John ILIFFE of Brinklow Warwickshire, 23 Sep 1816 Kilsby
Occupation(s) - if any
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
[COLOR="red"]Possbily 1816 Kilsby
1820-1830, Monks Kirby Warwickshire (Baptist Chapel records children)
Date, place and cause of death
Feb 1832
Date and place of burial.
28 Feb 1832 Withybrook Warwickshire - probably child birth related.
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
none known
Memorial inscription - if any
not known
Found husband John in census 1841-1871 in Marston Moretaine. This is the link to daughter REBECCA ILIFFE http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=6886&highlight=rebecca+iliffe
kiterunner
13-08-11, 18:33
Kilsby is in Northamptonshire, just a few miles from Rugby. Brinklow's pretty close to Rugby too.
Thanks Kite - I have been checking how close all the towns are and where the county borders are, but I am still not clear about it all.
Theres a freebmd death for a Sarah Iliffe, Jun Q 1839 in Lutterworth, which is the Reg District for Monks Kirby.
If this is the right one, and there don't seem to be many other Sarahs in the family, then John remarried pretty quickly, on 6 Jun 1839 to Phoebe Boot.
I guess I would then think that Sarah was local to Kilsby rather than Brinklow, but I seem to have had the impression they moved to Marston Moretaine before 1839, which now may be wrong and I will have to do some more searching.
Di
Hi Di
You may now already be aware of this but Sarah Iliffe nee Wilford was buried at Withybrook on 19 Feb 1832 aged 33 years suggesting she was probably born about 1798. This casts serious doubts on the claims on various Ancestry family trees that she was the daughter of Benjamin Wilford and Sarah Henson who baptised a daughter Sarah in Naseby in 1803. That Sarah would only have been 13 years old when she married and while not impossible, its very, very unlikely.
You will find the Prerogative Court of Canterbury Will of Martha Timbs of Old Stratford proven in 1856 of interest. In it she mentions "John Iliffe late of Monks Kirby in the county of Leicestershire (sic) who married my sister Sarah some time since deceased". Martha was the widow of William Timbs of Stony Stratford and had no children. She also mentions her brother Joseph, sister Hannah Pitts, nephew John Norton Wilford (her sister Hannah's illegitimate son) and her niece Sarah the wife of John Gardener of Stony Stratford. Sarah Gardener was the daughter of Martha's sister Mary but Mary nor her other children were mentioned in the Will.
As Benjamin and Sarah Wilford did not have daughters named Martha or Hannah, that kills off once and for all the theory that Sarah Iliffe nee Wilford was their daughter.
That said to date I have been unable to find baptisms for Sarah or her four siblings in either Northamptonshire, Warwickshire or Leicestershire. Its possible they may have been baptised in a non-conformist chapel whose registers have not survived. Joseph Wilford's second marriage certificate from 1840 confirms their father was Charles, a weaver, but not the Charles who married Ann Lewis in Husbands Bosworth and Mary Hall nee Haines in Naseby as he did not have daughters named Martha or Sarah with either wife.
John Iliffe's 3rd wife Harriet Pitts was John's sister in law Hannah Pitts nee Wilford's stepdaughter. She remarried to Luke Moore in 1873 and was visiting her stepmother's niece Sarah Gardener on the 1891 Census.
I hope this is of interest. Other researchers with an interest in this family seem to not be prepared to even consider that they may have the wrong Wilford line even when presented with some of the above evidence. I've tried to contact a Toronto-based researcher descended from John Norton Wilford who has claimed on several forums that Hannah Wilford was the daughter of Charles and Mary nee Haines, but not even an email to the Ontario Genealogy Society, of which his wife is known to be actively involved, has elicited a response.
I have noted 23 Sep 1816, in Kilsby Bedfordshire, from freeREG
Kilsby is in Northants, not Bedfordshire.
Re the parents of Sarah and the various siblings - my money is on the marriage between Charles Willford of Naseby and Martha Allen of Long Buckby who married 24 May 1777 at Long Buckby, witnesses Ann Staughton, William Willford, Andrew Allen and Sara Rodgers.
Hi Merry, yes my money is on the Charles Wilford and Martha Allen marriage but I've yet to find any children baptised to them in either CofE or non-conformist chapels. Neither left a Will either unfortunately. The Allens of Long Buckby were apparently non-conformist at that time and the Long Buckby Independent Chapel doesn't have any records before sometime in the 1790s which would exclude four of the five siblings by their probable ages on census/burials. Its possible they could be baptised in a chapel whose registers are missing or are deposited with a County Records Office rather than the National Archives and haven't been indexed/digitised yet. Its only a theory and so far not provable. There are a couple of other Wilfords born around that time in the Naseby/Market Harborough area, one of whom lists Naseby as his birthplace on the 1851 Census, but I've yet to work out who either of their parents were. Just wish I could find something to prove the parent's theory but finding Martha Timbs nee Wilford's Will has been very helpful in confirming five siblings and excluding several sets of parents. Having been researching this line for 17 years I'm hoping at some point to be able to confirm the parents beyond any doubt.
They sound like my non-conformist relations from the wrong part of Bedfordshire (ie an area where the records have not survived)!
I'm certain you will make a breakthrough eventually.
It's a pity there are no names in this (below), whether it to eliminate a mass of people or prove a few facts!! (I note the numbers don't actually total 264!):
05 January 1815 - Exeter Flying Post - Exeter, Devon, England
*
Lately, died at Naseby, Northamptonshire, Mrs. Mary Wilford, aged 93: she has left five sons and two daughters, 35 grand children and 38 great grand children; she was aunt to 15, great aunt to 81, great great aunt to 108 and great great great aunt to 6, all of whom are now living, amounting to 264 souls.
You mentioned Sarah and Martha etc had a sister named Mary. Do you know her approx. date/place of birth?
I worked out her husband was William Marsan (spelling from Sarah's marriage cert with witnesses J (?) N Wilford and Sophia Wilford, amongst others), and saw their marriage (spelling Marston, witnesses Joseph Wilford and Hannah Wlford) in 1815 at Naseby, so presumed Mary might have been born about 1795ish, but I couldn't see them on a census/burial to confirm.
Anyway, the reason I was wondering this is because I noticed this burial:
Mary Wilford but 5 May 1793 at Naseby, the dau of Charles Wilford.
I wondered if this was a sister of the others, born and died before the Mary who married William Mars*n? There is no obvious baptism for this Mary or for any other children of a Charles in Naseby around this timeframe. If it is a child of the right Charles (not sure how you would prove that!) then at least it's a contemporary record placing the family, rather than relying on census birth places.
I knew there was something else..... Other burials for children in Naseby around the same time and entered up by the same vicar mention the name of the mother was well as the father. I have seen before an apparent level of contempt from C of E vicars when having to bury non-conformist children in their churchyard and I wondered if this vicar was irritated (or insert other adjective) that this Charles Wilford didn't normally attend his church and the child was not baptised there, so why would he bother with writing the wife's name down?
My Bedfordshire non-conformists buried their babies in the C of E but the older children/adults seem to have been interred somewhere where the records have not survived, so presumably a non-conformist chapel (I've been picking away at them for 25 years+!)
Mary Wilford buried 1793 was the daughter of Charles Wilford and Ann Lewis baptised at Husbands Bosworth in 1782. Her mother was buried at HB in 1791 and Charles returned to Naseby (he was baptised there in 1754 the son of John and Sarah Wilford nee Lynett). That Charles had another daughter Mary baptised with his second wife Mary Hains in Feb 1812. She would appear to have been buried aged 3 years in Naseby in 1815. That Charles Wilford had seven children baptised at Husbands Bosworth between 1774 and 1788 with his first wife Ann Lewis and a further seven with his second wife Mary Hains all baptised in 1812, most of them together without ages. He married for the second time in 1797 at Naseby (Mary Hains married as the widow Mary Hall) and the ages of the children on census/burials suggest they were born after the marriage and not before. In any case he didn't have daughters named Martha or Sarah. There are numerous inaccurate trees on Ancestry listing his son Charles (baptised HB in 1778) as the Charles Wilford in Eccles, Lancashire, but that Charles was baptised two years earlier in Eccles the illegitimate son of a Mary Wilford. Evidence confirming this (other than his age on his marriage and burial both point to the 1776 baptism and not 1778) is a monumental inscription for a grave in Eccles churchyard (prior to its clearance) whereby two of that Charles' sons were buried with their paternal grandmother Mary Wilford's parents. As it was a private grave there would be no other reason for those two children to be buried in that particular grave unless they were family. Charles Wilford son of Charles and Ann Lewis would appear to have married Sarah Wilkinson at Oadby, Leicestershire, in 1802 and moved back to Naseby by 1821. He was a bit of a naughty boy and got convicted on several occasions including sentence of transportation but appears to have managed to get a reprieve and remained in this country dying in Naseby in 1849. All evidence tends to suggest he was the Husbands Bosworth Charles but some researchers are not prepared to consider this as it means their nice large tree is a little inaccurate. The original so-called link from Eccles to Husbands Bosworth appears to have come from an LDS Patron submission which was accepted as accurate in spite of contradicting itself by quoting both the 1828 burial in Eccles and 1849 in Naseby for the same Charles Wilford.
John Wilford who married Sarah Lynett was the brother of Benjamin Wilford who, with second wife Rose Ingram, were the parents of Charles Wilford who married Martha Allen. So the two Charles Wilfords were first cousins.
The Mary Wilford who died aged 93 in 1815 (although she was likely only 92) was Mary Cheney wife of John Wilford. John Wilford appears to be the one baptised in 1712 in Arthingworth to Joseph Wilford and Mary nee Ellis (his father was from Lubenham in Leicestershire). There are a considerable number of Wilfords in Naseby and the surrounding area and unfortunately there appears to have been a lot of inaccurate connecting going on by a number of researchers into the various lines.
I've been working my way through the Naseby Wilfords for some years as many, including those in surrounding parishes, appear to be related. I may well once happy with my research upload a public tree to Ancestry in the hope it may help future researchers in light of the fact there are problems with a number of the public trees on the site relating to these families. I'm not saying I'm likely to be completely correct but my research is based on a wider look at all the Wilfords in the area and not restricted to what "appears" to fit the known facts. The fact that there are several Wilfords in Naseby and the surrounds who weren't baptised is causing some of the problems but so is the number of them with the same names.
Hi Nick and Merry
Just a quick post to say I have seen this discussion, but dont have time to read it fully at the moment.
I have found the 1832 burial at Withybrook and am pretty convinced its our Sarah. Aren't wills the best things !! So much information in some of them. But I wouldn't looked for a will for Martha Timbs, being a way of the main track of my research.
Given the family history, I would also think that our Wilfords are non-conformist, so maybe no "baptisms" will be found.
Except the marriage, and his mothers name of Ebenezer's death certificate and the use of the Wilford as a middle name in some parts of the Iliffe family, we would have had no idea about her.
I do think the Pitts connection is a strong one, so I will look at your information tonight and revise my tree.I think I have found the Pitts/Moore connection, but I am so excited by the details you provide, I can see I will be getting back into some serious searching as soon as I can.
I dont know why some researchers are not prepared to be "corrected" by those with better information - I am always delighted to find someone else researching my family, and if they have found information I have not uncovered after 15 years, its such a thrill.
I am still chipping away at the Ebenezer/John Iliffe mystery, but as neither was "registered" at Monks Kirby with the other Iliffe children, its been a long roundabout search. I am hoping something in the Lands Dept records might provide a clue.
Di
Back again
Sarah Wilford and John Iliffe had a son Charles Iliffe, who died aged 19 - so it makes sense if her father was Charles Wilford.
There is another connection which I think must belong as well -
Phoebe Frances Munday (daughter of Mary Iliffe, grand-daughter of Sarah Wilford) married William Samuel Wilford in 1904 in the Wellingborough Reg District. In the 1901 census she was his housekeeper in Newport Pagnell. I think he was the grandson of Charles Wilford and Sarah Pearson. So many Charles Wilfords, no wonder we can be confused !
Her 1953 Will was probated to Leonard and Elizabeth Chapman, but I have not worked out who they are, I don't think.
Diane
Hi Again
I had a look at the Will of Martha Timbs - Robert and Alice Webb (nee Muddiman) are the parents of Sarah Webb who married Enoch Iliffe, son of Sarah Wilford Iliffe.
Perhaps a tight-knit little group of non-conformists ?
Off to do some research and see what else I can find
Di
Pleased to have been able to help. The Wilfords, along with my Marsons, have been a bit of a nightmare researching for years!
Interesting that Pheobe Frances Munday married William Samuel Wilford from Newport Pagnell. His Benjamin brother married Charlotte Bromwich who was admittedly born at Newport Pagnell the daughter of Martin Bromwich so could be a coincidence. Martin Bromwich moved there from Hardwick, Northamptonshire, via Market Harborough. However, Martin's father William I'm pretty sure is the second cousin of Mary Wilford's husband William Marson so it may not be such a coincidence.
Charles Wilford husband of Sarah Pearson I'm starting to suspect could be another sibling. As you probably know they married in Market Harborough in 1804 moved to Daventry and then Newport Pagnell. Sarah dies I think in 1822, if memory serves me right, and Charles remarries before dying there in 1835. I know he leaves a Will held at Buckinghamshire Record Office and of which I'm hoping to get a copy to see if he mentions any relatives in light of the fact his children's mother was already deceased. Its a long shot but not impossible especially considering how close Newport Pagnell is to Old Stratford and Stony Stratford where Martha Timbs nee Wilford, John Norton Wilford and Sarah Gardiner nee Marson lived. The fact that Charles and Sarah had a son Benjamin (who would have been named after his grandfather) and daughter Martha also raised my interest in them as another possible sibling.
On the subject of the name Ebenezer. There is an Ebenezer Wilford baptised to William and Elizabeth nee Edmunds at Welford Independent Chapel, Northamptonshire, in 1794. His parents married in 1782 at Daventry Holy Cross and William's signature matches that of the witness to Charles Wilford and Martha Allen's marriage in 1777 so I believe he is probably Charles' brother baptised at Naseby in 1751. He died in 1802. There are only three confirmed children to them, Ebenezer, Job baptised at Welford Independent in 1793 and I believe the Robert Wilford son of William and Elizabeth buried at Naseby in 1796. However, there is a William Wilford who married Sarah Smith at Braybrooke, Northamptonshire, in 1821 who states he was born c1786 at Naseby. No baptism found but he would appear to be the William Wilford who witnessed Ebenezer's second marriage at Market Harborough in 1830 (very similar signature) and I suspect he could be another of William and Elizabeth's sons. Some researchers claim that William snr married Elizabeth Gibbs but I'm pretty sure that William was the son of William Wilford and Elizabeth nee Webb and was baptised at Naseby in 1777, buried there in 1844.
There is also a Benjamin Wilford who married Ann Stevenson at Swithland, Leicestershire, in 1815. Again one of the witnesses is a William Wilford and his signature does look very similar to the William Wilford who married Sarah Smith. That Benjamin died at Loughborough in March qtr 1840 aged 54 years (according to the new GRO website index). Some researchers claim he was the son of Benjamin Wilford and Sarah Henson but their son wasn't born until 1799 and appears to have married twice in Naseby and stayed there. Its possible he could be another son of William Wilford and Elizabeth Edmunds and wasn't baptised or was baptised at a non-conformist chapel whose registers are lost or haven't been indexed/digitised yet. William's father was obviously Benjamin.
Of the four siblings of Sarah Iliffe nee Wilford, the oldest confirmed would appear to be Joseph who married Hannah Bull at Hasebech in 1805 and following her death in 1837 he married the widow Elizabeth Warren at Blissworth Register Office. The witnesses to his second marriage were Thomas Pitts and Hannah Pitts, obviously his sister and brother in law. Joseph was buried at Naseby in March 1850 aged 70 years. Martha would appear to have been born c1781/2. She married William Timbs at Cosgrove in 1812 and died Sept qtr 1856 Potterspury Registration District with her age on the new GRO website index listed as 75 years. As Merry found, Mary married William Marson at Naseby in 1815, witnesses being brother Joseph (who had a very distinct signature) and sister Hannah prior to her marriage. She would appear to have been buried at Stowe IX Churches in Oct 1819 aged 33 years. Stowe's post 1813 burial register hasn't yet been deposited with the Record Office but the BTs do have a burial which Ancestry have indexed as Masteris but which looks more like Mastern to me. I suspect this is Mary's burial as the BTs are fairly complete as far as I can see. Only a check of the originals held by the parish church would confirm it and I'm uninclined to be honest to pay the Cof E's exorbitant charges to do this. Mary was definitely deceased before 1841. Hannah was born c1791. When she died in 1873 she was listed as 82 years which tends to tie in with her age on the Census. She would only have been about 20 when John Norton Wilford was born. Interestingly she was subject to a settlement examination in 1817 when John was about 6 years old. I've not seen the original yet, its held at Northamptonshire Record Office, but it may well confirm her father was Charles and was legally settled in Naseby to allow her to remain there, but without seeing it this is I accept speculation. She must have fallen on hard times in 1817 to have been subject to the examination as she would have thought there would have been a bastardy bond in 1811 otherwise for when he was born. According to forum posts by a Toronto based researcher JNW's father was Richard Norton of Yelvertoft which I'm assuming is confirmed by the settlement examination. I suspect this is where the confusion about her parents being Charles Wilford and Mary nee Hains comes from as there are obviously no children baptised to Charles and Martha nee Allen anywhere, albeit that Hannah's age should really have rung alarm bells to that theory as she was born about 6 years before the marriage. The parish clerk in 1812 didn't help by not listing any ages on the multiple baptism for Charles and Mary nee Hains' children. I think Charles and Mary's daughter Hannah married William Burbage at Naseby in 1818, one of the witnesses was her father's great niece Sarah Wilford and that Sarah's future husband Thomas Ringrose.
The Wilfords of Naseby and surrounding areas are a bit of a nightmare because of missing baptisms and the use of the same names over so many generations. It had taken years to confirm my suspicions about Mary's parentage and siblings and while I can't prove yet that their mother was Martha Allen it was the fact that she had a sister Martha, a daughter Martha (baptised at Naseby in 1817 but from Stowe), and Joseph had a son Benjamin (named after what would be Joseph's grandfather Benjamin Wilford) raised my suspicions. I accept it is all only circumstancial evidence for now about the identity of the sibling's mother but I think a good case could be made for it. Hopefully one of these days something can be found to confirm it beyond any doubt!
Nicola
Alice Muddiman was baptised Alice Muddyman Tims 7 March 1790 at Towcester daughter of Ann Tims. I suspect she's related to Martha's husband William, although she dropped the Tims when she married.
I have to admit I'd not realised their daughter had married Enoch Iliffe but have only started looking at the Iliffe's in more detail recently.
I found records for the children of Robert and Alice Webb on familysearch, listed birthdates, baptism dates and death dates (for some) at the "Independent, Potterspury and Yardley Gobion, Northampton". Apparently, the indpendent chapel was at Yardley Gobion an outlying village as there was no church there until 1864 and its within the Potterspury parish. The history of the area seems pretty complex.
Aren't wills the best things !! So much information in some of them. But I wouldn't looked for a will for Martha Timbs, being a way of the main track of my research.
Di
I only picked up the Will after I realised that one of John Gardiner and Sarah Marson's sons was William Timbs Gardiner, having found that Sarah was working as a servant to Martha Timbs of Old Stratford on the 1841 Census. As Martha married some distance from Naseby, it wasn't a marriage I would have picked up very easily particularly as there is no baptised for Martha in Naseby.
Wills have been the saviour of a lot of research over the years, particularly where parish registers are missing. We have one line in Essex where a few Wills confirm three generations, information about which wouldn't be found otherwise because the parish registers don't start early enough.
Hi Nicola
Thanks for the further information about the Wilfords. They are not my only non-conformist families - pretty much all of mum's side of the family was - the Wilfords and the Houghtons may be the oldest though.
I always suspected that tracing Sarah's family would be difficult as they would turn out to be dissenters in a chapel whose records were not available, unlike the Houghtons who attended the one at Broughton near Kettering.
Diane
Hi Diane
Its only really that generation of Wilfords who were probably dissenters. The earlier generations all used Church of England, but there are quite a lot of them with the same names which makes for fun trying to sort out the various family lines.
Nicola
Sadly the Will of Charles Wilford of Newport Pagnell from 1835 only mentions his three surviving children, second wife and two local friends who were to be trustees of his estate until the death of his second wife, at which point it was to be divided between his surviving children. So no further in trying to confirm who his parents were, although it still wouldn't surprise me if it was Charles Wilford and Martha Allen.
On a more positive note I now think I know who Martha Allen's parents were, but as with the Wilford children there appear to be know recorded baptisms for either her or her five probable siblings (based on marriage witnesses) and nor her father either. The Allens definitely look likely to have been non-conformist for several generations, albeit that there is a link back to the Naseby area which is useful. All based on supposition but I think I can make a good argument for it.
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